I want to understand the Catholic faith so....
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Just a few points:
1. Growing up in an area with a lot of Catholics doesn't make one an expert on Catholic theology. It might give you a level of experience with the PRACTICE of your area (practice does often vary by region), but even then it's possible that observations and understandings could be biased or incorrect. Having a relative who was Catholic doesn't give anyone particular insight into Catholic theology. You might know their personal journey very well, but that may or may not reflect a right understanding of the teachings of the church.
I grew up around a lot of LDS folks. I can give you a lot of information regarding their practice (at the time and location). However, I'm no expert on LDS.
2. If you're going to engage in the logic that Catholics are "brainwashed" because their theological understandings and interpretation of scripture differ from your own, then you should be prepared to own the label "brainwashed" when non-believers claim it about you. Everyone is acculturated to varying degrees. I've met plenty of non-Catholic Christians who believe what they believe not because they've personally studied certain scriptures but because they were TAUGHT "that is what scripture says."
3. It's always a mistake to universalize one person's experience. You claim your grandfather didn't learn about salvation while he was in the church, yet many people have learned about salvation in the midst of the church. In fact, I've known of "cradle Baptists" who claim they were never properly taught about the gospel until they left their church and went to a different sort of church. Personally, I don't blame the churches. I think that some individuals take their religious upbringing for granted. It's not until they are out of their comfort zone that they are able to really hear God. There is ample reference to the saving work of Christ at every single Mass. So, if someone "misses" it, perhaps they weren't yet ready to see.
4. The reason that Roman Catholics (and the Orthodox, for that matter) might argue their faith based on the bible AND the practice of the early church (as referenced by the early church fathers, such as Origen) is because the RCC doesn't adhere to the theological idea of sola scriptura. Sola scriptura is a manifestation of the Reformation. Adherence or non-adherence to sola scriptura is based on interpretation of scripture. So, here's how it works: The Reformers (who had an agenda) interpreted certain verses and concluded that scripture is the final authority, and not the church. The Catholic Church (both RCC and Orthodox) look at those SAME SCRIPTURES and draw a different conclusion. So, if a non-Catholic wants to conclude that a Catholic is automatically wrong because they reference one of the early church fathers, or church practice, essentially they are elevating their interpretation of "sola scriptura" as the superior interpretation. Certainly, people can (and do) elevate their interpretations as superior for a variety of reasons; however, to imply that Catholics lack underlying reasons (based on both scripture and practice) for their theological views is unfair and intellectually dishonest.
1. Growing up in an area with a lot of Catholics doesn't make one an expert on Catholic theology. It might give you a level of experience with the PRACTICE of your area (practice does often vary by region), but even then it's possible that observations and understandings could be biased or incorrect. Having a relative who was Catholic doesn't give anyone particular insight into Catholic theology. You might know their personal journey very well, but that may or may not reflect a right understanding of the teachings of the church.
I grew up around a lot of LDS folks. I can give you a lot of information regarding their practice (at the time and location). However, I'm no expert on LDS.
2. If you're going to engage in the logic that Catholics are "brainwashed" because their theological understandings and interpretation of scripture differ from your own, then you should be prepared to own the label "brainwashed" when non-believers claim it about you. Everyone is acculturated to varying degrees. I've met plenty of non-Catholic Christians who believe what they believe not because they've personally studied certain scriptures but because they were TAUGHT "that is what scripture says."
3. It's always a mistake to universalize one person's experience. You claim your grandfather didn't learn about salvation while he was in the church, yet many people have learned about salvation in the midst of the church. In fact, I've known of "cradle Baptists" who claim they were never properly taught about the gospel until they left their church and went to a different sort of church. Personally, I don't blame the churches. I think that some individuals take their religious upbringing for granted. It's not until they are out of their comfort zone that they are able to really hear God. There is ample reference to the saving work of Christ at every single Mass. So, if someone "misses" it, perhaps they weren't yet ready to see.
4. The reason that Roman Catholics (and the Orthodox, for that matter) might argue their faith based on the bible AND the practice of the early church (as referenced by the early church fathers, such as Origen) is because the RCC doesn't adhere to the theological idea of sola scriptura. Sola scriptura is a manifestation of the Reformation. Adherence or non-adherence to sola scriptura is based on interpretation of scripture. So, here's how it works: The Reformers (who had an agenda) interpreted certain verses and concluded that scripture is the final authority, and not the church. The Catholic Church (both RCC and Orthodox) look at those SAME SCRIPTURES and draw a different conclusion. So, if a non-Catholic wants to conclude that a Catholic is automatically wrong because they reference one of the early church fathers, or church practice, essentially they are elevating their interpretation of "sola scriptura" as the superior interpretation. Certainly, people can (and do) elevate their interpretations as superior for a variety of reasons; however, to imply that Catholics lack underlying reasons (based on both scripture and practice) for their theological views is unfair and intellectually dishonest.
K
There are Catholic beliefs that are dangerous and people need to know the truth and that these beliefs are against Gods Word. A priest cannot forgive you, no man can forgive your sin.Mary is not the same as Jesus,she cant heal anyone. You cannot buy your loved one a ticket to heaven,no matter how many candles you buy and light. Just a few beliefs that are directly against Gods Word.
This is the first time in my almost four months here that I have seen you mention that you are a Catholic. It was my cultural heritage as well... truly, I hope you do not take personally what we say against the historical, heretical teachings of the papacy. I saw your wife once mention that she was SDA. However, neither of you seem to come here to promote and/or defend what are largely regarded by others as false teachings, but simply for Christian fellowship. Sincerely I hope you find it here, and also hope that you do not personally fault me for defending what I believe to be the Truth as Jesus taught it, and as His apostles taught it. Cookie?
tourist..take the boulder off your shoulder for a moment, toss it aside and start over. As a CHRISTIAN, you do not make it to heaven by demanding people be 'nice' to you. You make it to heaven by being nice to your enemies, blessing them that curse and persecute you, etc. God is NOT going to take you aside and ask "DID you get on the internet recently and make sure those people knew how you were treated? There, there, my child...let your Father rap his arms around you and comfort you...I will take care of those chatroom members who did not associate with you, once and for all!". There are no pity parties given here.
I take no offense at all from anyone at CC. I am currently attending my wife's church. I don't fully understand all of their teachings but I do know that they believe that no one comes to the Father except through His Son and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Jesus said once to a small group that there are others who are not of this fold and that He must gather them in also.
I started to question the Catholic teachings as a youth. There are many teachings and practices that I find disturbing but for many, this is the only teaching that they know at this time. Hopefully, with time will come understanding. Jesus will gather them in also along with the others.
I admire those that defend the Christian faith although some appear to be mean spirited or misguided. I believe that you have a gentle guiding spirit and you are truly a spiritual daughter of the Lord. I will certainly accept the cookie that you have offered and God bless you for the person that you are.
I started to question the Catholic teachings as a youth. There are many teachings and practices that I find disturbing but for many, this is the only teaching that they know at this time. Hopefully, with time will come understanding. Jesus will gather them in also along with the others.
I admire those that defend the Christian faith although some appear to be mean spirited or misguided. I believe that you have a gentle guiding spirit and you are truly a spiritual daughter of the Lord. I will certainly accept the cookie that you have offered and God bless you for the person that you are.
Ouch. I don't think that was called for 
Tourist is a very nice, very decent, very gentlemanly fellow, and I did not see anything that looked like what you are saying in terms of demanding people be nice to him.
Tourist is a very nice, very decent, very gentlemanly fellow, and I did not see anything that looked like what you are saying in terms of demanding people be nice to him.
prwnJC just likes to stir the pot, Magenta. He leaves snarky obnoxious replies all over the forums.. especially on threads that don't even interest him.
You soooooo totally misinterpreted tourist's response. :/ He never said anything about DEMANDING people be nice to him. Some people just aren't nice by nature. Fortunately, tourist IS nice by nature.
Your amazing journey in life and how you have allowed God to work in your life is an inspiration to many, myself included.Your post predisposes that people here will engage in a reasoned and rational discussion with someone about various Catholic doctrines. They won't.
If, for example, I was to address the unity of all the saints and the issue of intercessory prayer, I'd have to field dozens of people telling me that the Pope is really Muslim, and the RCC is the scarlet-clad whore who rides the beast, or that Catholics secretly devour infants. The propaganda about Catholicism is rampant. Many of the ideas presented here were begun during the Reformation as "spin" to influence thinking about the RCC. Seriously. During the Reformation. In other words, some of this unquestioned propaganda is nearly 500 years old.
What's also interesting to me is the level of vitriol that people have for the RCC, and yet the Orthodox Church is spared. Ironically, the RCC and Orthodox espouse many of the same theological ideas. Yet there is no anti-Orthodox message board on here. People don't consistently start conversations in the chatrooms about how the Orthodox are going to hell, etc. You never hear people discuss iconography, for example. Most Protestants don't even know anything about the Orthodox Church. As a result, they have no idea that many of the beliefs they call "RC" and attack are actually espoused by a large number of churches (even some Protestant churches). For example, infant baptism and belief in the Real Presence are NOT exclusively RC ideas.
Anytime I've attempted to have a *reasoned* discussion with people, several things tend to happen:
1. I get told I'm not really a Christian.
2. I get told I'm *probably* not a Christian because I willingly remain Catholic.
3. I get told that I'm ignorant or stupid or misinformed because I espouse the spiritual views I have. (People have a really hard time believing that my faith is *studied*).
4. I get told that they will "pray" for me (not that they care for me as a person, but they're praying that I'll eventually believe exactly as they do).
5. I get told what I believe by people who have no idea what I believe.
6. I get told how I practice my faith by people who have no idea how I practice my faith.
7. I get told "war stories" of former Catholics with the (faulty) logic that if a person leaves the church for any reason then everyone else should leave the church, too.
And when I point out the error of this kind of thinking (that it's not rational, but emotive...that it doesn't take into consideration the power of the Holy Spirit or the true nature of Christ's victory on the cross...that it presumes that other people determine who is saved instead of God, etc.) I get called "know-it-all," or "heretic," or "hateful," or "fill in the blank with the hate-word of the week."
So, I think it's rather unfair to imply that Catholics are unABLE to defend their beliefs. I don't lack understanding or ability; however, I don't think it's particularly useful to engage with people who don't have a true spirit of inquiry. If you'll read the boards, most of the non-catholics here are quite decided in their views. They're not approaching Catholics as fellow-believers (even though every single topic I've seen addressed recently on these boards is a non-essential). They are certain that they KNOW everything they need to know about Catholicism and all Catholics (no matter how they gained this knowledge). They are also certain that their job is to save me from myself....why? Because they don't believe that I have the presence of the Holy Spirit within me.
If, for example, I was to address the unity of all the saints and the issue of intercessory prayer, I'd have to field dozens of people telling me that the Pope is really Muslim, and the RCC is the scarlet-clad whore who rides the beast, or that Catholics secretly devour infants. The propaganda about Catholicism is rampant. Many of the ideas presented here were begun during the Reformation as "spin" to influence thinking about the RCC. Seriously. During the Reformation. In other words, some of this unquestioned propaganda is nearly 500 years old.
What's also interesting to me is the level of vitriol that people have for the RCC, and yet the Orthodox Church is spared. Ironically, the RCC and Orthodox espouse many of the same theological ideas. Yet there is no anti-Orthodox message board on here. People don't consistently start conversations in the chatrooms about how the Orthodox are going to hell, etc. You never hear people discuss iconography, for example. Most Protestants don't even know anything about the Orthodox Church. As a result, they have no idea that many of the beliefs they call "RC" and attack are actually espoused by a large number of churches (even some Protestant churches). For example, infant baptism and belief in the Real Presence are NOT exclusively RC ideas.
Anytime I've attempted to have a *reasoned* discussion with people, several things tend to happen:
1. I get told I'm not really a Christian.
2. I get told I'm *probably* not a Christian because I willingly remain Catholic.
3. I get told that I'm ignorant or stupid or misinformed because I espouse the spiritual views I have. (People have a really hard time believing that my faith is *studied*).
4. I get told that they will "pray" for me (not that they care for me as a person, but they're praying that I'll eventually believe exactly as they do).
5. I get told what I believe by people who have no idea what I believe.
6. I get told how I practice my faith by people who have no idea how I practice my faith.
7. I get told "war stories" of former Catholics with the (faulty) logic that if a person leaves the church for any reason then everyone else should leave the church, too.
And when I point out the error of this kind of thinking (that it's not rational, but emotive...that it doesn't take into consideration the power of the Holy Spirit or the true nature of Christ's victory on the cross...that it presumes that other people determine who is saved instead of God, etc.) I get called "know-it-all," or "heretic," or "hateful," or "fill in the blank with the hate-word of the week."
So, I think it's rather unfair to imply that Catholics are unABLE to defend their beliefs. I don't lack understanding or ability; however, I don't think it's particularly useful to engage with people who don't have a true spirit of inquiry. If you'll read the boards, most of the non-catholics here are quite decided in their views. They're not approaching Catholics as fellow-believers (even though every single topic I've seen addressed recently on these boards is a non-essential). They are certain that they KNOW everything they need to know about Catholicism and all Catholics (no matter how they gained this knowledge). They are also certain that their job is to save me from myself....why? Because they don't believe that I have the presence of the Holy Spirit within me.
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