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Brother gamlet:
If you said when people burn to dead like in the sodom than his soul dead,
Than if a christian burn to dead then they soul also dead. This verse say man not able kill the soul.
Let me repeat it. If burning kill the soul, then a man able to kill the soul, because a men have ability to burn other man.
Matthew 10:
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Brother gamlet.
I am not say dead can communicate with the living. But dead can communicated with the Lord
Look these verse.
revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
If you said when people burn to dead like in the sodom than his soul dead,
Than if a christian burn to dead then they soul also dead. This verse say man not able kill the soul.
Let me repeat it. If burning kill the soul, then a man able to kill the soul, because a men have ability to burn other man.
Matthew 10:
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Brother gamlet.
I am not say dead can communicate with the living. But dead can communicated with the Lord
Look these verse.
revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
G
I define soul as dust of the ground + breath of life = living soul. Death is the separation of the breath of life from the body. There is no spirit that survives death. The idea of the separation of the spirit and body is of Greek origin. When the Jews were colonized by the Romans, this ideology crept in. Thus, we have Christ utilizing this thinking in communicating his message--the Lazarus parable.
G
The point of Matthew 10:28 is that a man can kill another man but he rises again in the resurrection. But when God destroys a man in the fires of hell, he is forever destroyed.
We approach this word with different things in our minds. You read soul and think of a spirit separate from the body at death. I read soul and I think of the Genesis 2:7 formula (dust of the ground + breath of life). It's possible that Revelations 6:9 utilizes figurative language. The souls are not literally crying out to God just like Abel's blood did not literally cry out to God (Genesis 4:10). I keep saying this: the spirit-body dualism is a Greek conception. The Biblical/Hebrew construct is annihilation at death with the possibility of resurrection.
We approach this word with different things in our minds. You read soul and think of a spirit separate from the body at death. I read soul and I think of the Genesis 2:7 formula (dust of the ground + breath of life). It's possible that Revelations 6:9 utilizes figurative language. The souls are not literally crying out to God just like Abel's blood did not literally cry out to God (Genesis 4:10). I keep saying this: the spirit-body dualism is a Greek conception. The Biblical/Hebrew construct is annihilation at death with the possibility of resurrection.
Brother gamlet
I am quote your believe bellow:
I define soul as dust of the ground + breath of life = living soul. Death is the separation of the breath of life from the body. There is no spirit that survives death. The idea of the separation of the spirit and body is of Greek origin. When the Jews were colonized by the Romans, this ideology crept in. Thus, we have Christ utilizing this thinking in communicating his message--the Lazarus
end quote.
Matthew 10 basically said that a man can kill your body but not your soul.
If happen like your teaching, If you body kill than no spirit or soul survive, it mean if your kill a men than you kill you body and soul.
Jesus teach man only kill the body,
Mean When a man kill your body:
You body died
You soul not died because man not able to kill your soul.
Seem to me you teaching is different with Jesus teaching.
On revelation 6, John did not make parable at all. John having a visions what will happen to the soul.
I am quote your believe bellow:
I define soul as dust of the ground + breath of life = living soul. Death is the separation of the breath of life from the body. There is no spirit that survives death. The idea of the separation of the spirit and body is of Greek origin. When the Jews were colonized by the Romans, this ideology crept in. Thus, we have Christ utilizing this thinking in communicating his message--the Lazarus
end quote.
Matthew 10 basically said that a man can kill your body but not your soul.
If happen like your teaching, If you body kill than no spirit or soul survive, it mean if your kill a men than you kill you body and soul.
Jesus teach man only kill the body,
Mean When a man kill your body:
You body died
You soul not died because man not able to kill your soul.
Seem to me you teaching is different with Jesus teaching.
On revelation 6, John did not make parable at all. John having a visions what will happen to the soul.
G
A parable may be a real event or it may not. A parable is meant to teach a spiritual lesson. Details are given for delight and Jesus delighted in the story. Now, we have the Lazarus parable. What was its main point? Considering the context, we find that the adjoining story in the chapter is the story of the shrewd manager and its point is in Luke 16:13-- “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
I would think that the Lazarus parable makes a similar point about money and spirituality. It does not teach about the state of man at death. As I have kept saying in this thread, the spirit-body duality is a Greek ideology that crept into Jewish thinking after they were colonized by the Romans. Here Jesus was merely utilizing what was already in the minds of the Jews.
To build a theology of the state of the dead, you'd have to use something like a discourse instead of a parable.
I would think that the Lazarus parable makes a similar point about money and spirituality. It does not teach about the state of man at death. As I have kept saying in this thread, the spirit-body duality is a Greek ideology that crept into Jewish thinking after they were colonized by the Romans. Here Jesus was merely utilizing what was already in the minds of the Jews.
To build a theology of the state of the dead, you'd have to use something like a discourse instead of a parable.
G
We approach the text with different theories. When I read soul, I think dust of the ground + breath of life. When you read soul, you probably think something like a spirit. Now the point of the verse in Matthew 10 is that when a man kills somebody, it's not permanent because of the resurrection, but when God kills a man in the lake of fire, it's permanent. It's a real death, even the memory of him is erased.
In Revelations 6:10, it's possible to interpret the souls as not literally calling out to God just as Abel's blood did not literally call out to God in Genesis 4:10. This is a figurative use of language. It's called personification when inanimate objects are given human qualities or allowed human actions.
In Revelations 6:10, it's possible to interpret the souls as not literally calling out to God just as Abel's blood did not literally call out to God in Genesis 4:10. This is a figurative use of language. It's called personification when inanimate objects are given human qualities or allowed human actions.
Brother Gamlet:
Your theory soul is dust + breath of life.
It mean if some body kill you body/dust than no more soul. and you said soul will come back in the resurrection. So you believe at least one can kill you temporary.
How about Jesus theory about soul.
Man can't kill you soul. It does not say temporary in this verse. and the Lord said not to put additional or subtract of his Word.
Also if you said as son as body gone soul gone than when the time of resurrection who will resurrected you soul is gone, you do not have a soul anymore
Your theory soul is dust + breath of life.
It mean if some body kill you body/dust than no more soul. and you said soul will come back in the resurrection. So you believe at least one can kill you temporary.
How about Jesus theory about soul.
Man can't kill you soul. It does not say temporary in this verse. and the Lord said not to put additional or subtract of his Word.
Also if you said as son as body gone soul gone than when the time of resurrection who will resurrected you soul is gone, you do not have a soul anymore
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
This verse clearly shows that the soul can be destroyed.
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
only God has immortality and no other.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
souls can die.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Jesus says that the soul can be lost.
Mat_26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Jesus said His soul was headed to death. Luke says that Jesus was sweating blood which is a condition of great stress that can cause death.
The soul can die.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
a soul is the combination of dust of the ground and the breath of life. when ones breath leaves he becomes simply dead thus no more soul.
This verse clearly shows that the soul can be destroyed.
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
only God has immortality and no other.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
souls can die.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Jesus says that the soul can be lost.
Mat_26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Jesus said His soul was headed to death. Luke says that Jesus was sweating blood which is a condition of great stress that can cause death.
The soul can die.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
a soul is the combination of dust of the ground and the breath of life. when ones breath leaves he becomes simply dead thus no more soul.
The verses you are quoting are symbolic and are not about people who are dead talking. this illusion comes from Genesis.
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Notice that it is the voice of Abel's blood and not the voice of Abel.
But notice what the bible also says:
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
and again:
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
So those who die do not remember God or praise Him or Give thanx.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Dead people don't know anything. so how could they talk?
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
notice again that when we die our thoughts perish.
Revelation again is symbolic and when we read the story of Cain and Abel it can be seen that its their death that cries out to God. but they themselves do not know anything or praise God or even remember God.
blessings
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Notice that it is the voice of Abel's blood and not the voice of Abel.
But notice what the bible also says:
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
and again:
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
So those who die do not remember God or praise Him or Give thanx.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Dead people don't know anything. so how could they talk?
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
notice again that when we die our thoughts perish.
Revelation again is symbolic and when we read the story of Cain and Abel it can be seen that its their death that cries out to God. but they themselves do not know anything or praise God or even remember God.
blessings
We did not have a soul before we existed yet God created us. If He can do this than it stands to reason that He can recreate us again.
by the way dust + breath = life is not a theory its Gods word.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
question: Did we exist before God Created us?
The answer is no.
so then do we exist if the process of creating us is reversed?
The answer logically would be no again.
so we first don't exist until God creates.
the verse above says that we are made of dust of the earth and breath of life and thus a living soul.
so simple equation for ease.
Dust of earth + Breath of life = living soul.
two elements are needed to have a living soul as seen above. so the question is what happens when we die?
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Job confirms that the spirit is the breath of God.
Job_27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
as it said in Gen God breathed in Adams nostrils the breath of life.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
notice that the dust goes back to the earth where it was taken from and the spirit/breath of God goes back to God.
Thus we are brought back to the same state we were before we were created. we no longer exist our thoughts perish.
even as it was said to Adam:
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
by the way dust + breath = life is not a theory its Gods word.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
question: Did we exist before God Created us?
The answer is no.
so then do we exist if the process of creating us is reversed?
The answer logically would be no again.
so we first don't exist until God creates.
the verse above says that we are made of dust of the earth and breath of life and thus a living soul.
so simple equation for ease.
Dust of earth + Breath of life = living soul.
two elements are needed to have a living soul as seen above. so the question is what happens when we die?
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Job confirms that the spirit is the breath of God.
Job_27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
as it said in Gen God breathed in Adams nostrils the breath of life.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
notice that the dust goes back to the earth where it was taken from and the spirit/breath of God goes back to God.
Thus we are brought back to the same state we were before we were created. we no longer exist our thoughts perish.
even as it was said to Adam:
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
G
The body is just so many molecules. It would be no problem for God to collect them again after they were scattered at death. Now, the breath of life returns to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7 mentions that the spirit returns to God. The Hebrew word for spirit in this verse is ruach which is the same word used for breath. So the resurrection is the reunification of this dust and breath.
Now, what I said about the verse in Matthew 10 is how I interpret the intent or spirit of the verse.
Now, what I said about the verse in Matthew 10 is how I interpret the intent or spirit of the verse.
G
Keeping the commandments is not a burden, in fact, I consider it a delight. Faith is a liberty. The commandments were given to Israel after they were liberated from Egypt. Which is more burdensome keeping the commandment or not keeping it? Not murdering anybody or murdering somebody? Keeping the Sabbath or not keeping the Sabbath? These commandments were given to men. Its not right to think that you don't need to keep them anymore because Christ has kept them for you. You keep them through the power of God. It's definitely not a burden. It is a delight!
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
The very fact that the bible says that the dead have nothing to do with anything done on earth tells us that whoever or whatever the mediums were contacting it was not dead people.
So there must be another answer. The devil deceives and can take different forms eg snake in Eden. Angels have taken the form of normal humans.
Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. \
etc. the point is while they can't be dead people, If we don't know the bible truth that the dead can not speak to us or are concious somewhere. then we are able to be deceived by the Devil.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
The very fact that the bible says that the dead have nothing to do with anything done on earth tells us that whoever or whatever the mediums were contacting it was not dead people.
So there must be another answer. The devil deceives and can take different forms eg snake in Eden. Angels have taken the form of normal humans.
Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. \
etc. the point is while they can't be dead people, If we don't know the bible truth that the dead can not speak to us or are concious somewhere. then we are able to be deceived by the Devil.
The Bible as we know it has been translated from various languages which were mainly pictures that were put into words.
Pictures had many meanings and the picture word Nephesh, meant soul, breath, spirit, etc. When people talk about a spirit leaving the body, they visualize that there is now a ghost floating around whilst if somebody said the breath left the body, nothing is really being visualized and thought about it. God breathed on Adam and that is why he became a "living soul". With regards to the dead people now, there are no souls/spirits flying around representing those bodies. God has the power to resurrect those bodies no matter where the dust is, whether in the grave or in the sea and to give them their eternal bodies or, to raise them for final destruction. The hell word derived from the picture word Sheol which also means, grave, hell or pit. Everlasting comes from the picture word Ad which means even to, for, into, so long as, so that, till, toward, until, everlasting, eternity, ever, evermore, old, perpetually etc. So to say that the fire will be everlasting is questionable. It could be that the fire will be there until everything has been destroyed that needed to be destroyed and then will die off. This will make more sense as there cannot logically be a hell burning with people and Satan and his angels screaming, shouting and swearing forever while there is a new earth with saved people, God and His angels and Jesus living in harmony on the same earth. I believe that Satan, his angels and the resurrected unsaved will be devoured by fire and brimstone, each one's time before total destruction linked to the severity of his/her sins and Satan will be the last to be devoured. The eternity connected to this will be up to the point where he/she looses consciousness up to which time it felt for ever, just before total destruction. After the mass destruction, a new heaven and earth will be created and a new life will begin for all the saved, angels, God and Jesus on this new earth. When the world was destroyed with water, everybody did not believe that it will happen but Noah and his family was saved. People today might believe that the world will not be destroyed by fire and brimstone from heaven, but this earth will be destroyed by it and like Noah's Ark floated on the water, so will the New Jerusalem float on the lava before the New Earth is created.
Pictures had many meanings and the picture word Nephesh, meant soul, breath, spirit, etc. When people talk about a spirit leaving the body, they visualize that there is now a ghost floating around whilst if somebody said the breath left the body, nothing is really being visualized and thought about it. God breathed on Adam and that is why he became a "living soul". With regards to the dead people now, there are no souls/spirits flying around representing those bodies. God has the power to resurrect those bodies no matter where the dust is, whether in the grave or in the sea and to give them their eternal bodies or, to raise them for final destruction. The hell word derived from the picture word Sheol which also means, grave, hell or pit. Everlasting comes from the picture word Ad which means even to, for, into, so long as, so that, till, toward, until, everlasting, eternity, ever, evermore, old, perpetually etc. So to say that the fire will be everlasting is questionable. It could be that the fire will be there until everything has been destroyed that needed to be destroyed and then will die off. This will make more sense as there cannot logically be a hell burning with people and Satan and his angels screaming, shouting and swearing forever while there is a new earth with saved people, God and His angels and Jesus living in harmony on the same earth. I believe that Satan, his angels and the resurrected unsaved will be devoured by fire and brimstone, each one's time before total destruction linked to the severity of his/her sins and Satan will be the last to be devoured. The eternity connected to this will be up to the point where he/she looses consciousness up to which time it felt for ever, just before total destruction. After the mass destruction, a new heaven and earth will be created and a new life will begin for all the saved, angels, God and Jesus on this new earth. When the world was destroyed with water, everybody did not believe that it will happen but Noah and his family was saved. People today might believe that the world will not be destroyed by fire and brimstone from heaven, but this earth will be destroyed by it and like Noah's Ark floated on the water, so will the New Jerusalem float on the lava before the New Earth is created.