If men got the Titus 2 Treatment…

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Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
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#1
The Crisis of Biblical Masculinity in the Church
By Roberta Heard Ellis

It has come to my attention that we are facing a crisis of biblical masculinity in the Church today. An increasing number of men are neglecting the roles God clearly outlined for them in Scripture (Genesis 3:19, 1 Thessalonians 5:26, 1 Timothy 2:8) in favor of blatant cultural capitulation. I’d like to focus on three biblical principles that many modern men, out of total disregard for Scripture, continue to ignore: sweating, kissing, and hand-raising.


1. Sweating:
Take a look around our culture and you will see millions of men who earn a living by working in climate controlled office buildings. Such work may be mentally strenuous, but far too often, it can be accomplished without even breaking a sweat.
The curse of Genesis 3 clearly describes man’s primary activity as difficult physical labor. “By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground,” God declares in Genesis 3:19.
David, who is described as a “man after God’s own heart” (Acts 13:22) was a shepherd (1 Samuel 16:11), who clubbed wild animals to death (1 Samuel 17:35-25). He was also a warrior (1 Samuel 18:27) and a king (2 Samuel 12:30).
The men of Scripture—Abraham, Isaac, Sampson, Daniel, Jesus, Peter, Paul—are men of action whose occupations centered around physical labor like farming, shepherding, carpentry, tent-making, and fighting animals with their bare hands. (Note: any exceptions to this trend should be immediately discounted as irrelevant anomalies.) Nowhere in Scripture is a man of God described as sitting at a desk in an office building from nine to five. Nowhere.
So men who wish to honor God with their lives and humbly submit to His will should make physical labor their primary occupation, and resist the urge to give in to our culture’s glorification of “white collar” work, which is a departure from biblical principles of masculinity.
Now, some men will say they find office work more stimulating and rewarding than manual labor, or that it provides more financial security in their particular situation, but these men are more interested in pursuing selfish ambitions and wealth than submitting themselves to the Word of God. Our culture’s rampant obesity epidemic among men can be clearly traced to this departure from God’s perfect design. And it threatens to undo our whole society, negatively affecting our children and generations to come.


2. Kissing
It may surprise many men to learn that one of the most common instructions found in New Testament Scripture is for Christians to “greet one another with holy kiss” (Romans 16:16, 1 Corinthians 16:20, 11 Corinthians 13:12, 1 Thessalonians 5:26, 1 Peter 5:14). In 1 Thessalonians 5:26, Paul specifically instructs men to do this.
Yet despite the fact that this is one of the most repeated directives of Scripture, one is hard-pressed to find men kissing one another on the cheeck in churches today. This is because those who do not take the Bible seriously claim these clear teachings of Scripture have a “cultural” component.
But let us not forget that God’s word does not change or pass away (Malachi 3:6, Mark 13:31) and also that studying the Greco-Roman cultural context of the New Testament is kind of a pain. We are therefore obligated to take God at his word, whether these instructions make sense in our culture or not.


3. Hand-Raising
I Timothy 2 stipulates the responsibilities of men and women in worship.
Thankfully, 1 Timothy 2:12—“I do not permit a woman to assume authority over a man”—continues to be rigidly applied in many churches today without regard to its original context or intended audience. However, the instructions 1 Timothy 2:8—“I want men EVERYWHERE to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing” (emphasis mine) is taken as a sort of suggestion that need not be directly enforced in the modern church.
Often I have been to churches where women are properly silenced, but men do not even bother to lift their hands during prayer! Furthermore, some of these men are known to engage in public disputes around theology—often on their blogs—which this passage clearly condemns.
And it’s not just the rules for worship in 1 Timothy 2 that men have chosen to disregard. These days, little attention is paid to 1 Corinthians 11:14—“Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him”—even though the language used here is the same used in Romans 1:26, which many Christians are quite fond of citing when condemning other people.


In summary, if staying true to the Word of God means applying its instructions to women literally, without regard to their cultural contexts or original intended audiences, then faithfulness requires we do the same for men.
It’s only fair.
 

mystdancer50

Senior Member
Feb 26, 2012
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#2
I never thought of the sweating thing. :)

Very good points, though I do believe Joseph would be considered an 'office' job, and so would most stewards, as they 'managed' the household and the goods of their master, telling others to go and do. There is Mordecai, who was a scribe in the King's court. Though David began as a shepherd, he ended up a king, as was his son Solomon, so there wasn't much sweat there, though they did go to war at times, but even guys in an office will break a sweat working on cars or in the yard. Then consider the prophets...though I guess the traveling was something that made them sweat, but they didn't necessarily toil in hard labor. Also, the judges of the Bible, too. Just some thoughts, though I really do like your post. :) I'm going to read through it again...just wanted to share this thought I had reading this. I think that God has a place for everyone, some who toil and sweat, and some who manage and lead...I don't personally feel that one is lesser than the other.
 
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Dec 21, 2012
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#3

Lots of scripture in the OP, none of which is Titus 2.
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
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#4

Lots of scripture in the OP, none of which is Titus 2.
This is edited from the original blog. I have pasted one of the deleted paragraphs below, or you can follow the link embedded in the title.

"I call this the “Titus 2 Treatment” because Titus 2:5 is one of the most commonly abused passages in this regard. It’s a verse in which women are instructed to be “busy in home,” (as opposed to being idle in home, not, as some claim, as opposed to working outside of the home) and I’ve seen it cited in support of all sorts of statements about how domestic duties such as washing the dishes or doing the laundry fall exclusively to women and how mothers who have careers outside of the home are shirking their God-ordained roles."
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#5
Yet despite the fact that this is one of the most repeated directives of Scripture, one is hard-pressed to find men kissing one another on the cheeck in churches today. This is because those who do not take the Bible seriously claim these clear teachings of Scripture have a “cultural” component.
Syrians been following Jesus Christ since Matt 4:24--long before His crucifixion--I wonder which part of that Roberta Heard Ellis doesn't understand?

Perhaps she confused Protestantism with Christianity?


[video=youtube;kRWSSqzkn20]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRWSSqzkn20[/video][
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#6
And this is the proof why God NEVER wants a woman to preach or teach... Shame it is a SHAME for women to speak in church or teach men what to do.

You think Elijah worked with theelders when the sweat was dripping from their brow in HIS HOME AT A TABLE? You think PEter was sweating when he saw the curtain descend from heaven? Was he wring God's Work or not?

I do BOTH office and manual. And one is not more BIBLICAL or More HOLY than the other? I speak of experience. You speak of bad interpretaion, and bad doctrine. God creates work. What about the lame man that could not work, and the blind ones... did he sin or his parents.... Is begging one of the LABOROUS jobs God created? Why was the blind begger healed? For God's GLORY!


Shame I pray you get to know God and His will. You think the sweat is running from my face now, ot am I NOT doing God's Work now? The kiss is not a a kiss like you perceve, it is SPIRITUAL. Jesus NEVER kiseed any man, and the kiss Judas gave him to indicate His identity, was also not a "KISS" but more of a HUG! Get some truth before you teach!


Lifting hands you say... Please add the word HOLY before hands.... God says we should raise our HOLY HANDS... how can the hands be holy if the spirit of the person is NOT? Another thing I see you do not understand at all. Read this verse and tell me how much sweat did PROHECY bring forth ok!...


2 Peter 1:21... For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Just a question, HOW MANY DROPS OF SWEAT WILL THE BODY SWEAT WHEN GOD OCCUPIES THE BODY? And what work will that body be doing.... God said the worker HE APPOINTS will be fed, what is the WORK of God's men? Tip ... Eph 4:11. Does not look to physical for me.
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
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#7
The article is tongue-in-cheek as the title implies. It is an exploration in what it would look like if we interpreted scriptures relating to men with the same method we use for the women. It's the consistent application of faulty logic to point out the errors that are widely-accepted as truth.
 
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breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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Australia
#8
Honestly I first thought what is this crap? But I get it now, its true lol
 

mystdancer50

Senior Member
Feb 26, 2012
2,522
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#9
All I know is on those days when loneliness creeps in and I start thinking of marriage, all I do is come on CC and read the pious, domineering and abusive posts on here from Christian men, especially the ones where the best they can write is about how women shouldn't teach and preach to men, and the loneliness goes away.

For all the men who don't believe women can teach a man, I suggest you avoid reading posts by women on this site. After all, when you do so, you are the one choosing to sit there and hear the teaching. She isn't forcing you to read it. Then, when you post such a comment, all you do is appear chauvinistic and whiny. There is always room for legitimate discussion, but the preamble you use determines how it's received. I for one refuse to read past statements that are cruel, prideful and chauvinistic, so all the typing and possible validity is lost.

Now, I am off my soapbox. Misty, I apologize for the derailment. :)
 
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May 3, 2013
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#10
What?

"2. Kissing
It may surprise many men to learn that one of the most common instructions found in New Testament Scripture is for Christians to “greet one another with holy kiss” (Romans 16:16, 1 Corinthians 16:20, 11 Corinthians 13:12, 1 Thessalonians 5:26, 1 Peter 5:14). In 1 Thessalonians 5:26, Paul specifically instructs men to do this. See this, below (***)
Yet despite the fact that this is one of the most repeated directives of Scripture, one is hard-pressed to find men kissing one another on the cheeck in churches today. This is because those who do not take the Bible seriously claim these clear teachings of Scripture have a “cultural” component.
But let us not forget that God’s word does not change or pass away (Malachi 3:6, Mark 13:31) and also that studying the Greco-Roman cultural context of the New Testament is kind of a pain. We are therefore obligated to take God at his word, whether these instructions make sense in our culture or not." ROBERTA! Really?

I would like to ask
ROBERTA (not any of YOU).

Who was Paul? (***). Am I obliged to follow Paul´s teachings (or Jesus´). I know "his" culture (Paul´s) used to kiss people, but I don´t like to kiss the way JUDAS KISSED JESUS.

Roberta! Do you kiss people that way?

Do this, as a social exercise:

Each time you come into an elevator greet the people you might find and GIVE THEM A KISS...

If they are men, some of them would enjoy that kiss of ROBERTA (not all, of course, becuase some are happily married and some might have liked another thing).

If they are women, some would be happy... But not all: Just do it as a social exercise, Roberta, and tell us all about.

Let´s say Roberta (a person I don´t know) is a hugger (a thing I also like). Go enter the same elevator (a safe area where there is no place to run) an look deep into somebody´s eyes and HUG THEM ALL.

Would you tell there is a crisis in "BIBLICAL MASCULINITY" alone?

Social crisis is widely spread, not only in society or homes, but INSIDE EACH INDIVIDUAL. There is not a "biblical" clue for PERSONAL DECISIONS.

Just try that exercise and re-write (ROBERTA) that "biblical" problem you haven´t sorted out (because it is individual and a choice).
 
May 3, 2013
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#11
Another thing for Roberta (I just don´t want to hurt her feelings: The crisis is in both genders).

" men do not even bother to lift their hands during prayer! "

It is "your" feministic religion -or stand point of view- you rightfully want to seek (That´s right). It looks "nice" but EACH has his/her heart open to show (or do) whatever thing they might like to enjoy or pretend.

Perhaps I don´t like Paul because I think he is somewhat catholic and, by using his teachings, many men decided to be alone, SINGLE and never married (a thing highly CONTRADICTED in the Old Testament, where I see many men -and priest- marring holy women, by the way).

So you think by lifting our hands (well! MY hands) I do make worshipping best?

I don´t think so.

To the surprise of many people here or outside, when I am filled of holy joy, I DO CRY, I shed tears, and I don´t find it feministic (as any might think a weak masculinity there is in crisis).

I don´t follow Paul´s ideas, I follow my heart (same as you follow whomever you want, Roberta)
 
May 3, 2013
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#12
(...)

For all the men who don't believe women can teach a man, I suggest you avoid reading posts by women on this site. (...)

Misty, I apologize for the derailment. :)
I don´t believe what you believed, but women have teached me, from home to school (all my life).

What I don´t believe what ROBERTA has written. I find her ideas insulting (but are HER ideas, not mine).

If she used Paul´s (or whomever she thinks) to back up her feministic view, I could use my ideas to back up my partiality, as a man and machist.

P.S.

May I ask you to practise that "social" experiment I already mentioned?

Muack!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
Another thing for Roberta (I just don´t want to hurt her feelings: The crisis is in both genders).

" men do not even bother to lift their hands during prayer! "

It is "your" feministic religion -or stand point of view- you rightfully want to seek (That´s right). It looks "nice" but EACH has his/her heart open to show (or do) whatever thing they might like to enjoy or pretend.

Perhaps I don´t like Paul because I think he is somewhat catholic and, by using his teachings, many men decided to be alone, SINGLE and never married (a thing highly CONTRADICTED in the Old Testament, where I see many men -and priest- marring holy women, by the way).

So you think by lifting our hands (well! MY hands) I do make worshipping best?

I don´t think so.

To the surprise of many people here or outside, when I am filled of holy joy, I DO CRY, I shed tears, and I don´t find it feministic (as any might think a weak masculinity there is in crisis).

I don´t follow Paul´s ideas, I follow my heart (same as you follow whomever you want, Roberta)

mind if I ask why you think paul is more catholic? I see nothing catholic about him. quite the opposite.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#15
as for the topic. Paul said be all things to all people. It is not feminine to not hold you hands up. Does this make God listen to you more? Quite honestly. If I go to a church and see a bunch of people holding their hands up. I think I am in a holy roller church and run! fully expecting a bunch of babble to start.

As for Kissing. It is culturally unacceptable in this culture. The "be all things" comes to mind.

As for sweating? What are we all going to be like the pharisees and start judging? If God gave a person an office Job. Who are we to judge the person who took it?

I see alot of judging here. Judge not lest ye be judged.
 
May 3, 2013
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#16

mind if I ask why you think paul is more catholic? I see nothing catholic about him. quite the opposite.
I respect your opinion as you have respected mine.

I was Catholic, but no more. The problem I have is between ME and Paul´s teaching.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#17
I respect your opinion as you have respected mine.

I was Catholic, but no more. The problem I have is between ME and Paul´s teaching.

Well that worries me. If we take the whole councel of scripture. We need to take Pauls word as truth.

I am not catholic by any means, I hope you do not think this. I am just trying to see where you see paul and catholicism in agreement. when I would say Paul is the most anticatholic teacher next to Christ himself.
 
May 3, 2013
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#18
as for the topic. Paul said be all things to all people. It is not feminine to not hold you hands up. Does this make God listen to you more? Quite honestly. If I go to a church and see a bunch of people holding their hands up. I think I am in a holy roller church and run! fully expecting a bunch of babble to start.

As for Kissing. It is culturally unacceptable in this culture. The "be all things" comes to mind.

As for sweating? What are we all going to be like the pharisees and start judging? If God gave a person an office Job. Who are we to judge the person who took it?

I see alot of judging here. Judge not lest ye be judged.
Thanks! I would think I am in the same boat you were (I lived 13 years with a pentecostal, my ex-wife).
 
May 3, 2013
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#19
My ex-wife ussually saw Paul s teaching as MACHISM... You know! He spoke as being submissive and all those things some people avoid to talk but, I decided to see JESUS´ instead of other´s teachings. :)
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
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#20
Secularhermit, I think you have missed the point of the article. It's not meant as a literal analysis of scripture; rather, it illustrates the inequity of scriptural interpretation relating to gender. In other words: verses about women are frequently taken to very literal extremes. This blog is an example of taking verses about men to the same literal extreme. Do you see the difference now?