If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus 2:11

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

The coupon said the hamburger was free.

No it was not. it was paid for by your work to go get it

Some gracious person gave me the coupon that offered a hamburger for free, I did nothing to earn that coupon with a free offer.

yes, but you still had to pay for it by going to get it (you saved him the gas free of bringing it to you)

The coupon, with the free offer of a hamburger, said "redeem at participating store when ordering".

My coupon says redeem where you stand.

The coupon did not say "do nothing" and the hamburger will magically appear before you no more than Christ said "do nothing" and salvation will magically come to you.

ok. now you have lost it. God does not come to us? what bible to you read? you need to get away from your church. they have you fooled.

Sorry but you never proved I earned the hamburger that was given to me FREE.

I do not have to prove it to you. Just to anyone who might listen to your nonsense and believe it. I gave up on you along time ago. Lucky for you, God has not given up on you, your still alive, there is still hope.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

No it was not. it was paid for by your work to go get it

I paid for nothing, not at anytime did money leave my pocket to the cashiers hand at the burger joint.
The free hamburger came as a result of the free offer AND my meeting the conditions placed upon the offer.
....no coupon = no free hamburger no matter how much work I do.....

yes, but you still had to pay for it by going to get it (you saved him the gas free of bringing it to you)

I did not pay for the hamburger, I just met the conditions required by the free offer to get the free hamburger.
So some body else must have paid for the hamburger for I did not.

The gift giver has the option of placing conditions on his free gift or not. In my case, the gift giver chose to not bring me the hamburger while I did nothing but chose instead to give me a coupon for a free hamburger and I had to meet the conditions on the coupon.

Getting the free hamburger cost me something, it cost me some time and gas, but those things did not pay for the hamburger. Without the coupon's and its free offer, I could have gone to the burger joint, which costs me something, yet without the coupon no free hamburger for me. Even though it cost me to go to the burger joint, that cost did not pay for a hamburger.

Being a Christian will "cost" one (Mk 8:34-38) yet that cost does not buy/pay for the free gift of salvation.

Even Billy Graham said "Salvation is free, but discipleship costs everything we have” [--Edythe Draper, Drapers Book of Quotations for the Christian World (Wheaton: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., 1992)].

My coupon says redeem where you stand.

Jesus never said "stand where you are and do nothing and thou shalt be saved".
The issue I am talking about is that offers of a free gifts can come with a condition and meeting the condtion does not, cannot earn the free gift.

ok. now you have lost it. God does not come to us? what bible to you read? you need to get away from your church. they have you fooled.

Mt 11:28 "Comeuntome, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Sinners must come to Christ in meeting His conditions upon His free offer....Lk 6:46.

Jn 6:45 God draws, men "cometh unto Me"

I do not have to prove it to you. Just to anyone who might listen to your nonsense and believe it. I gave up on you along time ago. Lucky for you, God has not given up on you, your still alive, there is still hope.

A person giving me a coupon with a free offer for a hamburger and then me meeting the conditions on the coupon by going there and placing the order and receiving that FREE hamburger that I did not pay for is just plain common sense. And you are working hard to try to find a way to get around that plain common sense.

 

[MarcR]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

1. If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11)?

The Grace of God, which brings Salvation, has indeed appeared to all. However Salvation is offered to all but not imposed on any. To benefit from God's gift one must in heart and mind accept Jesus' Lordship over one's life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

I paid for nothing, not at anytime did money leave my pocket to the cashiers hand at the burger joint.
The free hamburger came as a result of the free offer AND my meeting the conditions placed upon the offer.
....no coupon = no free hamburger no matter how much work I do.....



I did not pay for the hamburger, I just met the conditions required by the free offer to get the free hamburger.
So some body else must have paid for the hamburger for I did not.

The gift giver has the option of placing conditions on his free gift or not. In my case, the gift giver chose to not bring me the hamburger while I did nothing but chose instead to give me a coupon for a free hamburger and I had to meet the conditions on the coupon.

Getting the free hamburger cost me something, it cost me some time and gas, but those things did not pay for the hamburger. Without the coupon's and its free offer, I could have gone to the burger joint, which costs me something, yet without the coupon no free hamburger for me. Even though it cost me to go to the burger joint, that cost did not pay for a hamburger.

Being a Christian will "cost" one (Mk 8:34-38) yet that cost does not buy/pay for the free gift of salvation.

Even Billy Graham said "Salvation is free, but discipleship costs everything we have” [--Edythe Draper, Drapers Book of Quotations for the Christian World (Wheaton: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., 1992)].



Jesus never said "stand where you are and do nothing and thou shalt be saved".
The issue I am talking about is that offers of a free gifts can come with a condition and meeting the condtion does not, cannot earn the free gift.



Mt 11:28 "Comeuntome, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Sinners must come to Christ in meeting His conditions upon His free offer....Lk 6:46.

Jn 6:45 God draws, men "cometh unto Me"






A person giving me a coupon with a free offer for a hamburger and then me meeting the conditions on the coupon by going there and placing the order and receiving that FREE hamburger that I did not pay for is just plain common sense. And you are working hard to try to find a way to get around that plain common sense.

is ANYONE buying into this persons deceptive teachings and misrepresentation of the grace of God? Is there anyone here who can not see he is trying to use mans wisdom to try to explain Godly things? it would be nice to know. because if not. There is no need having this meaningless discussion anymore.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

is ANYONE buying into this persons deceptive teachings and misrepresentation of the grace of God? Is there anyone here who can not see he is trying to use mans wisdom to try to explain Godly things? it would be nice to know. because if not. There is no need having this meaningless discussion anymore.

Has anyone been able to show misrepresentation or deception? has anyone been able to show that man has no part what so ever in his salvation? has anyone been able to show Christ did not command righteous works to be saved?

Not being able to show him wrong does not make him deceptive or miss representative, could it be then that he is correct?

 

[sltaylor]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

The weeds and the wheat, the enmity between God's offspring and Satans. I suppose when he says why are not 'all' saved by Grace, he is meaning the whole world.

That being said, the weeds will not listen to what the Son Says, nor are they foreknown, nor are they predestined to be conformed, for the Son did not plant them in the field of the Earth.

The Son didn't plant the weeds, remember, an enemy did this, they weren't even supposed to be here, some one snuck in and planted them amongst us while we were sleeping, very much the imagery of the serpent, just think how they lie in wait, camouflaged, just waiting for the victim of their poison to walk by.

God has objects of wrath stored for punishment, those must be made known, but only after those who listen, the objects of his mercy, are made known.

Just as Pharoah was hardened so God's power could be shown, it is the same now. The eternal memory of what is coming will be displayed on the weeds....but for God's weapons stored for destruction to be made known, there has to be those destined for his power to be displayed because of their hardened hearts.

If every one was saved, there would be no need for the book of Revelation, or for punishment in the first place now would it.

 

[Jeff_56]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

Going to the burger joint is a work. You would never receive the free gift (hamburger) without doing that work and that work does not in anyway earn you the free gift (hamburger).

Faith only (no works) would never get you to the burger joint to order the free hamburger so how can faith only ever get you that free gift (hamburger)?

i think i agree with most what you post. those who oppose you got nothing. like in GOD'S WORD >>
(this is GOOD!)(not for them, though)

• [h=2]American Standard Version[/h]
  
  Proverbs 19:24 (ASV) The sluggard burieth his hand in the dish, And will not so much as bring it to his mouth again.
  
  
• [h=2]The Bible in Basic English[/h]
  
  Proverbs 19:24 (BBE) The hater of work puts his hand deep into the basin, and will not even take it to his mouth again.
  
  
• [h=2]Common English Bible[/h]
  
  Proverbs 19:24 (CEB) Lazy people bury their hand in the bowl; they won't even put it to their mouth.
  
  

and more >>>

• [h=2]American Standard Version[/h]
  
  Proverbs 26:15 (ASV) The sluggard burieth his hand in the dish; It wearieth him to bring it again to his mouth.
  
  
• [h=2]The Bible in Basic English[/h]
  
  Proverbs 26:15 (BBE) The hater of work puts his hand deep into the basin: lifting it again to his mouth is a weariness to him.
  
  
• [h=2]Common English Bible[/h]
  
  Proverbs 26:15 (CEB) Lazy people bury their hand into the bowl, too tired to return it to their mouth.
  
  

 

[JaumeJ]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

When we seek Salvation in true earnest, God knows and we are drawn to Jesus Christ. The free gift must be received in spirit and truth. You probably already know even in earthly government, when benefits are handed out for those in need, there come the cheaters also who just want to reap the benefits of more in the material sector.

No, the gift of Salvation must be asked for, sought out, and finally received. Many may say the "live in grace,;" but if they have not accepted the gift, Jesus Christ, theyare simply living in license, without regard for the Head nor for the Body members.. No one can live in grace without having first accepted Jesus Christ and the gospel He brought to us all.

 

[birdie]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

1. If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11)?

This is a good question. The answer is that the Bible uses the phrase "all men" in a parable sense that means all saved persons. Romans 11:26 says " ...all Israel shall be saved..." and this is the same sort of meaning. All Israel means all spiritual Israel, meaning all true believers. Another Bible verse, Romans 5:18, says: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" If the free gift came upon all men, then all persons in the world are saved. However, this seems to mean instead that all true believers will be saved, since sheep and goat scriptures and others seem to indicate that not everyone in the world is saved.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

The facts are:
1) God's grace required the condition of dipping
2) Naaman did the work of dipping
3) he received God's free gift of grace in having his diseased healed

Don't forget the rest of the facts.
1) Naaman received healing from leprosy after dipping.
2) Naaman did not receive the free gift of eternal life after dipping.
3) Naaman did not even believe in God until after he dipped.

What is overlooked and will continue to be overlooked by some is:

1) God's grace was conditional
2) the condition had to be met before reception of the gift could be had
3) meeting the condition did not, could not earn the free gift.

Naaman met the condition to receive healing from leprosy. He dipped in the Jordan. God's grace is conditional for us to receive eternal life. We are saved by grace through faith, not through dipping (Ephesians 2:8,9).

The case in Lk 5:12 does not change, undo or contradict Naaman's case so you still have your problem.

I don't have a problem at all, but you have a problem because now we have a man being healed from leprosy by Jesus and no dipping is found here, so there is no consistent pattern in your logic.

In Lk 5:12, Jesus conditionally require him to have faith before he would heal.

Not the same situation that we find in 2 Kings 5, is it?

Compare to the case in Matthew 9:

Mt 9:22 "And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us."
Mt 9:23 "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth."

In v22 the man said to Jesus "if thou canst do any thing" - the man lacked faith in Christ. In v23 Jesus is telling the man that healing this child is not something Christ will do alone, but it will also conditionally require that man's faith.

It's all about faith, but you want to make it all about works.

(This also is a good analogy against the idea that salvation is by Christ alone, but Christ conditionally requires obedience (Heb 5:9) (obedience in belief repentance, confession, baptism) upon the part of man to save man.)

The Bible is not against the truth that salvation is based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption alone and is not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith in Christ alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are saved because of Christ. We are saved by grace through faith, not works, so Christ does not require salvation by works. Works salvation is not obedience and faith is the condition. Who is it that obeys Christ? Believers or unbelievers? Only believers obey Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) and obey Him after they have been saved through faith (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) and are not saved, so they don't obey Him no matter how much so-called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain attempt to attain salvation by works. You have misinterpreted Hebrews 5:9 to teach salvation by works.

Compare what each man said:
The man in Luke 5 said "

Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean".
The man in Matt 9 said "but if thou canst do any thing"

The man in Lk 5 already conditionally already had faith where the man in Mt 9 did not.

Yes, faith is the issue.

You cannot get anyone saved that does not jump through the "hoops" of believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism for remission of sins. You'll never get the unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ lost in his unremitted sins saved while in that state. Your argument is dead but you will keep arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Jumping through the hoops of mere "mental assent" belief (which falls short of trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation, self reformation, lip service confession and submitting to baptism with no saving faith in Christ will not save anyone. Unbelievers are lost whether or not they have been water baptized. It's your argument that is dead but you will continue to "parrot off" what your predecessors before you have taught for the sake of arguing. You still need to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel and only then will the blinders be removed. None of your arguments are anything new or enlightening. I know all about your works based false gospel (been there, done that) but now I BELIEVE. When will you BELIEVE?

 

[mailmandan]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

You are creating the contradiction.
The people asked Jesus what they must DO. Instead of telling them do no works, Jesus gave them a WORK to DO that work to DO being "believe". Since no one can be saved without doing the work of believing Jesus was most certainly teaching a "works based salvation" leaving you at the opposite end of what Christ said....AGAIN.

LOL! The people asked Jesus what they must do in order to work the WORKS (plural) of God. Jesus said, this is the work (singular) of God/what God requires that you believe in Him. That is not salvation by works and Jesus was not teaching salvation by works, as you are. Jesus did not add a check list of works to believing. Believing in Him is clearly not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works and believing does not earn our salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption) You trust in your works to save you and not exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption. *Big difference!

The simply fact when they asked Jesus what they must DO, what WORK they are to do (verse 28) and Jesus did NOT tell them "do no works just believe only" that response of Christ refutes your argument to no end.

Jesus said believe in Him "apart from additions or modifications." Jesus did not say, these are the works (plural of God) that you do X,Y, and Z. Jesus simply said, "BELIEVE IN HIM." Christ clearly refutes your argument of salvation by works. Why do you refuse to believe in Him? Are you self righteously wanting credit for your works?

You posted "Are you really that blind? John 6:28 - "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? They said nothing about works in this verse, right? Open your eyes."

WHAT????????????????????????????

I see that your eyes are still closed.

The people in verse 28 asked "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

Can YOU not see they asked what shall we DO that WE might WORK. They were clearly asking Jesus washt work they were to do and Jesus gave them a work in response to the is question, He gave them the work of believing.

They asked what WORKS (plural) are we to do and Jesus said this is the work of God/what God requires that you believe in Him. Jesus did not give them a check list of works to do but instead told them to believe in Him. Simple.

Your argument here is not even based in realty but can only come from the imagination of a mind biased by Martin Luther's faith only.

Not based in reality? LOL! Anything is possible for you to believe in your delusional world of UNBELIEF. When did I bring up Martin Luther? I've already explained to you numerous times what James means by "faith only" which is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith and not saving faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation. When you hear a genuine believer say that we are saved by "faith alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that remains alone "barren of works" (James 2:14-24). Saving faith results in good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's the faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ part of the equation that "alone" saves you as the instrumental means. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but they are not the instrumental means as well. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith in "Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:2-3; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* The natural man is spiritually discerned and cannot grasp this truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

Has anyone been able to show misrepresentation or deception? has anyone been able to show that man has no part what so ever in his salvation? has anyone been able to show Christ did not command righteous works to be saved?

Not being able to show him wrong does not make him deceptive or miss representative, could it be then that he is correct?

Actually the answer would be yes to every one of your questions but the last one, which would be NO.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

Has anyone been able to show misrepresentation or deception? has anyone been able to show that man has no part what so ever in his salvation? has anyone been able to show Christ did not command righteous works to be saved?

Not being able to show him wrong does not make him deceptive or miss representative, could it be then that he is correct?

Actually the answer would be yes to every one of your questions but the last one, which would be NO.

Actually the questions were rhetorical, the answer to everyone of my questions would be NO, except the last one which would be YES.