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Hello DP,
All of the verses that you posted above are all referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and have nothing to do with the gathering of the church. The events above take place after the wrath of God has been completed.
The verse above is referring to the gathering of the church, which is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. This is just another case of not understanding that there is a difference between the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Until you understand that they are two separate events you will continue to run into faulty interpretations.
All of the verses that you posted above are all referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and have nothing to do with the gathering of the church. The events above take place after the wrath of God has been completed.
The verse above is referring to the gathering of the church, which is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. This is just another case of not understanding that there is a difference between the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Until you understand that they are two separate events you will continue to run into faulty interpretations.
Hello Chuckt,
And I might add, and who are those armies on white horses?
"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
"and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you, so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints."
And I might add, and who are those armies on white horses?
"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
"and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you, so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints."
Hello again DP,
Again, you are misapplying scripture DP. Matt.24 and Mark 13 have to do with the time of God's wrath and Jacob's trouble. The church will have already been gathered prior to that. Matt.24:29-31 is the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age, which is synonymous with Rev.19:11-21. That said, in Rev.19:14 you have the armies in heaven who are riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean following the Lord out of heaven. Now, if you will look at Rev.19:6-8, you will see where the bride/church is receiving her fine linen, white and clean, which demonstrates that the church/bride is already in heaven.
Again, you are misapplying scripture DP. Matt.24 and Mark 13 have to do with the time of God's wrath and Jacob's trouble. The church will have already been gathered prior to that. Matt.24:29-31 is the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age, which is synonymous with Rev.19:11-21. That said, in Rev.19:14 you have the armies in heaven who are riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean following the Lord out of heaven. Now, if you will look at Rev.19:6-8, you will see where the bride/church is receiving her fine linen, white and clean, which demonstrates that the church/bride is already in heaven.
Hi Shrimp,
You are correct, there will be those who will have the seal of God in their foreheads, but only those 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel. No one else, not even the great tribulation saints are said to be seal, which means that everyone else will be exposed to the torment of those demonic beings, which is another example of why the church cannot be on earth during the time that God is pouring out his wrath.
"Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servant of our God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Our salvation depends on our faith and belief in Christ not whether we believe in the Pre Trib rapture or not. I have actually been told I am damned because I don't believe in it!! I wonder what these people are going to do if they find there is no pre trib rapture and they have to go through the tribulation with the rest of us. Paul warns of a
falling away in the last days. I wonder who they are that do so.
falling away in the last days. I wonder who they are that do so.
That thinking above by pre-tribbers shows how deluded those on pre-trib are, because there is only a one-time 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus Christ written to gather His Church, and it is per that Matt.24 and 2 Thess.2 Scripture order which also agree with all other relevant NT examples.
And because Jesus and Paul were so very plain in showing us that Christ's return to gather His Church is AFTER the trib, it shows the simplicity of the Scriptures. God didn't make truths in His Word like that hard to understand. But pre-trib rapture people adding a third coming of Christ when no such idea is written in Scripture shows you how they continually have to leave the simplicity of Scripture in order to push their lie.
And because Jesus and Paul were so very plain in showing us that Christ's return to gather His Church is AFTER the trib, it shows the simplicity of the Scriptures. God didn't make truths in His Word like that hard to understand. But pre-trib rapture people adding a third coming of Christ when no such idea is written in Scripture shows you how they continually have to leave the simplicity of Scripture in order to push their lie.
For one who takes the time to actually do disciplined Bible study and heed God's Word, it's very easy to see how pre-trib rapture folks are being deceived by men's doctrines. Make no mistake though why they are being deceived; it's because of who they choose to listen to and heed, i.e., doctrines of men instead of God's Word as written. Thus the confusion that will be their reward is what they deserve for not listening to our Lord Jesus in simplicity, because they loved not the truth.
For some Christians the tribulation is happening now. just think about ISIS and their barbaric treatment of Christans. I have seen no reports of any of them being Raptured. I read that in China before Mao and the Communists took power their was a huge number of Christians with strong Churches and leadership. Then ''Missionaries'' came and started teaching the Pre Trib doctrine. As the Communists grew in strength, some church leaders told their congregations not to worry about speaking out against Communism because they would all be Raptured. It didn't happen and thousands ended up being tortured and killed. The same mind set is found today. The world is sliding into chaos but don't worry Evangelist
XYZ says the next big event is that we will all be Raptured soon, so go back to sleep.
XYZ says the next big event is that we will all be Raptured soon, so go back to sleep.
Hi Tanakh,
Those suffering persecution, captivity and death at the hands of ISIS or any other group around the world is due to the common trials and tribulations that come via mankind and the powers of darkness for the testimony of Jesus and teh word of God. However, the wrath of God that is coming does not fall under that category. We need to discern between the two, for they are not the same. All believer's are susceptible to common trails and tribulation by the world, but believer's are not susceptible to God's coming wrath and that is the difference. We are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, for Jesus rescued us from it. He took the wrath that we deserve satisfying God's wrath as a result of our sins. People need to understand the difference between the two.
Those suffering persecution, captivity and death at the hands of ISIS or any other group around the world is due to the common trials and tribulations that come via mankind and the powers of darkness for the testimony of Jesus and teh word of God. However, the wrath of God that is coming does not fall under that category. We need to discern between the two, for they are not the same. All believer's are susceptible to common trails and tribulation by the world, but believer's are not susceptible to God's coming wrath and that is the difference. We are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, for Jesus rescued us from it. He took the wrath that we deserve satisfying God's wrath as a result of our sins. People need to understand the difference between the two.
DP, what you are saying is not true. I have been studying end-time events for over 40 years. I did not learn that God is going to remove his church prior to his wrath from any man, but from personal study. It is amazing to me regarding those of you who believe that God would build his church and then send it through his wrath. As I continue to claim, this error comes from not understanding the severity of God's wrath and not recognizing the difference between common trial and tribulation for the testimony of Jesus and the word vs. the coming wrath of God.
Please tell me who those armies riding on white horses are following Christ out of heaven found in Rev.19:14. Thanks!
Please tell me who those armies riding on white horses are following Christ out of heaven found in Rev.19:14. Thanks!
God did show His servants who study why the false prophets are allowed to work. It's to determine who is going to listen to Him in His Word or not. That's why one of the main warnings our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us for the end was to not allow any man to deceive us. Even all the way back to Israel in Judges 2 and 3 God showed how He will test His people by allowing false ones and deceivers among His people. That has not changed even for today, but is getting worse, like in the days of Jezebel the Baal worshiper.
I understand what you are saying although I would dispute that being beheaded or crucified comes under common trials and tribulations as opposed to being fired from a job or laughed at by someone. When Paul and others wrote about such things they were very common. The main point I was making is that the Pre Trib position is potentially dangerous because it lulls some people into a false sense of security.
This is another concept that we keep telling you, but you don't listen. When Christ comes to gather the church, he is not returning to the earth, but will be meeting the church in the air and then return to the Father's house. The only time that he will actually return to the earth is after the 7th bowl judgment, which is when he end the age. You have not understood that these are two separate events. By having the church being gathered when Christ returns to end the age, you put them through the entire wrath of God.
You mean you have been LISTENING to men's doctrines of a pre-trib rapture for 40 years, because that's how that doctrine of men is continued, since it is nowhere written in God's Word. That's why you don't believe the order our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul and Peter set forth for the events of the 'day of The Lord' with your confusion of thinking those events occur prior to the trib when they occur to END the trib instead!
Who in their right mind would ever claim the following event happens before the trib as you have?
2 Peter 3:10-12
10 Butthe day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV
Who in their right mind would ever claim the following event happens before the trib as you have?
2 Peter 3:10-12
10 Butthe day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV
I repeat, I did not learn this from any man, but from my own personal studies. You have to be able to put all of the scriptures together to come to this conclusion. First of all, you do not understand the severity of the wrath that is coming and you have not believed the word of God which says, "we are not appointed to suffer wrath" and that "Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.
The above does not happen when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, as Christ must reign for a thousand years before this heaven and earth are destroyed. By the way, I'm still waiting for you to tell me who the identity of those on white horses.
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