If you aren’t going up in the rapture, are you ready to be interrogated?

[Ahwatukee]

YES!! That's the point I've been trying to make...

arguing something that has no bearing on our salvation to the point of dividing the believers is absolutely WRONG.

Great post!

Hello Hornetguy and KohenMatt,

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and [the dead in Christ will rise first]. After that, [we who are still alive] and are left [will be caught up] together with them [in the clouds] to meet the Lord [in the air]. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

* For the Lord himself will come down from heaven

* The dead in Christ will rise first

* After that, we how are still alive will be changed and caught up with them (the resurrected)

* In the clouds

* To meet the Lord in the air

The above is not difficult at all to understand. It is the false teachings in the world that have distorted this truth. The Lord descends from heaven, the dead who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church are raised into those immortal and glorified bodies, immediately after that, those who are still alive are changed/transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and are caught up with the resurrected dead in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. By the words [clouds] and [air] we then know where both the resurrected and the living are being caught up to.

The dead shall rise first (Resurrection) = The physical, bodily standing up of those who have died in Christ

Then we which remain and are still alive = The living are transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies

There should now be no confusion about the gathering of the church via the resurrection and catching away of the dead and the living.

I would not be so quick as to claim that not believing in the gathering of the church both dead and living as not having any bearing on our salvation. Let me give you an example: When Hymenaeus and Philetus, where going about teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, Paul said that by doing so they had wandered from the truth, that their teaching was godless chatter, that it would spread like gangrene and by their teaching they were destroying the faith of some.

Though the word of God states that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and immediately after that the living will be changed and caught up with them, by not believing it you are denying the word of God and a direct promise from the Lord. The reason why this event is called "the blessed hope" is because the church is removed prior to God's wrath that will be poured out upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will decimate the population of the entire earth and dismantle all human government. After outlining the gathering of the church, dead and living, Paul then says, "comfort each other with these words." If the church was to go through the period of God's wrath, it would neither be a blessed hope nor would believer's have reason to comfort one another.

Regarding this time of coming wrath, scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer that wrath (1 Thes.5:9) and that Jesus, through his sacrifice for us, has rescued the faithful from that coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10). That said, you who do not believe in the Lord's promise would be rejecting his word, i.e. not having faith in his word and in his promise. I would put this in the same category as what Hymenaeus and Philetus had done. The teaching that the Lord is not going to gather the dead and remove the living from the earth according to his promise, would be the equivalent of godless chatter that has indeed spread like gangrene, causing those who do not believe and teach it to have wandered away from the true and destroying the faith of others. How are we destroying the faith of some you ask? Because by not believing in the Lord's promise and by teaching others the same, you would be claiming that instead of the blessed hope of the Lord's coming to remove his church from the earth prior to his wrath being poured out, by your belief and teaching you would be saying that God is going to send his living church through his wrath, which would be no blessed hope nor would it be of any comfort. This error also stems from not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

Therefore, I would not be so quick to claim that not believing in the promise of the Lord to remove the living believer's from the earth prior to his wrath has no bearing on your salvation. If anything, for those who are believing in his promise, as though God would leave the righteous here to suffer with the unrighteous, they should repent and believe in the word of God and his promise of gathering the church prior to his coming wrath.

 

[thepsalmist]

PROVERBS 21:31

The horse is made ready for the day of battle,
but victory rests with the Lord.

 

[DP]

Dispensationalists' Ignorance of Who Israel Is:

Ask yourself, why are these two separate groups mentioned involving who the New Covenant would be sent to?

Heb 8:6-13
6 But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, He saith, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord': for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."
13 In that He saith, 'A new covenant', He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
KJV

And why... is only "the house of Israel" mentioned in verse 10 while "the house of Judah" is left out, but included in verse 8?

Per OT history (1 Kings 11 forward):

1. house of Judah = southern tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, (and some small remnants of the ten tribes)
2. house of Israel = the ten northern tribes of Ephraim, Asher, Naphtali, Zebulon, Gad, Dan, Reuben, Issachar, Manasseh, Simeon.

God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's day. He made Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim king over Israel (ten northern tribes only). This was not the house of David kings of Judah which remained with the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem.

God then scattered the ten tribed house of Israel among the Gentiles first because of their false worship against Him. They lost their identity as the house of Israel (per Hosea).

But the house of Judah, the Jews, did not lose their heritage as Israel, and the Jews were not scattered with the ten tribe house of Israel when God removed the ten tribes per 2 Kings 17.

The majority of the ten tribed house of Israel became as Gentiles, living among the Gentiles, not knowing their heritage as Israel as it is even to this day. Only a small remnant among them know this Biblical truth of their old identity.

When our Lord Jesus was rejected in Jerusalem, He was then accepted by those who populated Europe and Asia Minor. Those areas were where God scattered the majority of the ten tribes among the Gentiles, and would along with the believing Gentiles, believe on Jesus Christ as their Savior per The New Covenant.

That fulfilled God's prophecy in Genesis 35 that Jacob's seed would become "a company of nations" and the Genesis 48 prophecy to Ephraim that his seed would become "a multitude of nations". These were the western Christian nations of history, including her sister nations outside the west that accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior on a national scale. That is where The New Covenant was sent.

This is why the Hebrews 8:10 verse doesn't mention the "house of Judah" in that because still today the majority of the Jews yet reject Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior.

Thus Christ's Church today includes the children of lost Israel that was to become "a multitude of nations". That's why Darby's Dispensational separation of Israel and Christ's Church is a false doctrine.

 

[PlainWord]

DP,

Loved your last post. I would add that the below offspring are we believing Gentiles.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[PlainWord]

Ahwatukee,

I think most of us agree there will be a Rapture and that it happens after the Resurrection. But to be clear, the Rapture is not a massive event involving hundreds of millions of Christians snatched away alive. By the time the Rapture occurs, there will only be a Remnant left alive, that's why Paul says, "Those who are alive and remain." Remain - Remnant. There is always a remnant.

Paul makes the order clear as does John if you understand Rev 11. What is not clear is any teaching that either of these events (Resurrection and Rapture) occur before the Great Tribulation of Israel. Let there be no doubt, the Great Tribulation happens to Israel. Christ gives the location in Mat 24 and warns specifically only for those in Judea to flee when they see the Abomination of Desolation because "then there will be Great Tribulation."

Mat 24: ...when you see the ‘abomination of desolation...then let those who are in Judea flee...For then there will be great tribulation.

The location of Israel is confirmed by Mark and Luke. Luke doesn't mention the "Abomination of Desolation" but does mention the "Desolation" of Jerusalem which occurs as a result. Luke then points to the pending attack as the trigger to the Great Tribulation.

Luke 21: [SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Thus the Great Tribulation is the final massive attack on Israel by Islamic forces to her north as confirmed by Daniel 11, Eze 38, Rev 13 and Joe 2.

Fast forward, the wise Elect of Israel recognized the Abomination (which causes their own) Desolation of Jerusalem and they flee again all over the world. Jerusalem is once again taken over by Gentiles (unbelievers, more specifically the Muslim attackers). What happens next is the Wrath of God occurs IN THE LAND where the Jews are no longer present because they scattered. The Wrath is targeted specifically at those who attacked and conquered Israel.

Eze 38: [SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken...[SUP]21 [/SUP]I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,” says the Lord God...[SUP]22 [/SUP]And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

The Northern Islamic Army will be killed and driven out of the Land of Israel as we see here.

Joe 2:[SUP] 20 [/SUP]“But I will remove far from you the northern army, And will drive him away into a barren and desolate land, With his face toward the eastern sea And his back toward the western sea; His stench will come up, And his foul odor will rise, Because he has done monstrous things.”

Zechariah 14 also describes these events.

One thing to know is there is always a remnant (of Jews) who stay in the Land. So far there has been no Resurrection, no Return of the Lord and no Rapture. The Great Tribulation (OF ISRAEL) is over. The Resurrection, Wrath, Return of the Lord and Rapture are all linked and closely associated with one another.

Daniel 12: “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt...

You see clearly from the above that the Resurrection happens after the Great Tribulation of Israel which Daniel calls "Time of Trouble" unlike anything any nation has seen. Daniel goes on in the same passage to say this:

...and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

Did you catch that? The POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE HAS TO BE COMPLETELY SHATTERED then all these things (RESURRECTION) SHALL BE FINISHED. Thus the resurrection is after the Great Tribulation of Israel. You can't have the resurrection until after the slaughter!!

Dan 11: [SUP]35 [/SUP]And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

Those who understand will fight but they will fall. They are refined and purified then resurrected.

Since the Rapture happens after the resurrection, and the resurrection happens after the Great Tribulation of Israel, then there is no pre-trib Rapture.

QUESTION: When Christ returns what does He do?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

ANSWER: He gathers His Elect.

QUESTION: Why do they need to be gathered?

ANSWER: Because they scattered just prior to the Great Tribulation (AKA Massive attack on Israel)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

You see, this prophesy is all about Israel. The Gathering of the ELECT is Christ bringing back to Israel those who were scattered from Israel just prior to the Great Tribulation.

I can feel your head spinning right now assuming you haven't already stopped reading. The Big Question remains, "What about the CHURCH?" I will answer this next.

 

[mpaper345]

People may debate about the resurrection,but they cannot say that God loves His children so He would not allow them to go through the 7 years period,because it is not a valid thing that can be proven,because if that were the case that the only reason they are not going through the tribulation is because God will not allow it,then God would of not allowed any of His saints to be persecuted throughout the whole history of the Church.

Also the tribulation is the last three and one half years,and to people that think it means tribulation for the world,it is tribulation for the saints,and Jesus said it will be persecution like no other time in history,which He is obviously talking about the persecution of the saints,the world is not going to persecute each other,because they are together going against all people who oppose their kingdom,but who are they going to fight,but only the Christians,for God is going to send strong delusion to all that do not love God,and they will follow the beast kingdom,and take the mark,in which they do not have the opportunity to repent of their sins anymore.

They all together as one in the beast kingdom,in which it will be separate the world,and Christians,the only people to tribulate on,and persecute is the Christians,which the Bible says the man of sin destroys the mighty,and holy people,although they want to attack Israel,but the Bible says she is protected during the whole 7 years period.

The world can repent of their sins during the first half of the 7 years period,so the saints are going through the first half,but then the beast makes war against the saints,so they will be in to the last half.

And that is because God is love,and will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,so God is going to let them go that far,to make war against the Christians,and then when they are gone,to attack Israel,in which Jesus comes back with the saints,and saves Israel,for there will be no excuses for what they did,because they showed they surely did not care about God,and His people.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
Joe 3:3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
Joe 3:4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head.

Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Joe 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
Joe 3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[shrimp]

Whichever way it goes, I trust the Lord to have me in his hands taking care of me. If it is to save me from a 7 year tribulation and He takes me through rapture or death, let it be so. If I have to go through some of the tribulation, I can trust that I needed to. If I go through the whole thing I trust that God really wants me to be strong in my faith and love for him.
To blindly say that if God loves us, He wouldn't let us hurt, is silly. Many times we go through hurts for a test and a testament. All times, it is for growth. Yes God loves us, but He is also just and sometimes that pain is God disciplining you and you need to listen. Each case is different, according to our needs.
As for the Tribulations and Rapture, today is what we need to worry about. If we are so fixated on worrying about what is going to happen in the future, we will not be prepared. Today's evil is sufficient.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Mapper,

People may debate about the resurrection, but they cannot say that God loves His children so He would not allow them to go through the 7 years period, because it is not a valid thing that can be proven, because if that were the case that the only reason they are not going through the tribulation is because God will not allow it, then God would of not allowed any of His saints to be persecuted throughout the whole history of the Church.

Again your error, along with others, is 1) not understanding that there is a difference between common trial and tribulation which comes at the hands of men, which the Lord said all believer's would experience, opposed to the prophesied time of God's direct wrath which will take place during that last seven years. And 2) you and others have not understood the severity of God's coming unprecedented wrath. I continue to point out that, by Christ's sacrifice, he rescued those living believer's who will be here just prior to the on-set of God's wrath to remove them from earth according to his promise.

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

After Paul gives a detailed account of the resurrection and catching away of the dead and living in 1 Thes.4:13-18, it is then followed by a description of God's wrath, which also demonstrates the order in which they occur, first the gathering, then the wrath.

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."


In the scripture above, regarding those who are not of Christ, when that time of wrath comes, they will not escape. Then for those who are in Christ Paul says,

"but you brothers and sisters are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

Therefore, what would be the difference if both believer's and unbeliever's remain on the earth during the time of God's wrath? What does Paul mean when he says "this day should not take you by surprise?" The way in which that day will not take believer's by surprise, is because the living believer's at the time of the resurrection will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Also, regarding this coming wrath, in verse 9, Paul says,

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

The other truth that you and others are not understanding is that, there is another group introduced in chapter 7 in the book of Revelation that are distinct from the church, which you guy's continue to ignore. You and others need to pay attention to this information that I continue to present and investigate it. Don't just brush it aside as invalid! Search it out for yourselves!

Revelation 1 thru the very end of chapter 3: Only the word "Ekklesia" translated as "Church" is used to identify believer's and the word "Hagios" translated "Saints" is never seen within those same chapters.

Revelation 4 onward and beginning at 5:8: Only the word "Saints" is used through the entire narrative of God's wrath and the word "Church" is never seen again, until outside of the narrative in Rev.22:16.

Now, if both the words "Church" and "Saints" were used interchangeably throughout all of the chapters within the book of Revelation, then I could not make the claim of there being a distinction between these two groups. But because the use of the word church is contained within chapters 1 thru 3 and "Saints" are contained within the reset of the chapters, God is demonstrating that these saints are a different group separate from the church.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

If the group above was the church, why would the reader be introduced to them when John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches? The very fact that the elder is introducing them demonstrates that they are another group other than the church. Also, the fact that the elder is even asking John who they are and the fact that he doesn't know, demonstrates that they are not the church. Therefore, every reference to the word "Saints" that is found from Rev.5:8 onward is referring to the group above and not to the church. Doesn't the Spirit within you send up a red flag regarding the fact that in Chapters 1 through 3 the word "church" is used 19 times and then after chapter 4 it is mysteriously absent? Crickets, chirp .... chirp.

Stop repeating the popular responses to discredit these truths and look into these things, all of you!

 

[popeye]

People may debate about the resurrection,but they cannot say that God loves His children so He would not allow them to go through the 7 years period,because it is not a valid thing that can be proven,because if that were the case that the only reason they are not going through the tribulation is because God will not allow it,then God would of not allowed any of His saints to be persecuted throughout the whole history of the Church.

Also the tribulation is the last three and one half years,and to people that think it means tribulation for the world,it is tribulation for the saints,and Jesus said it will be persecution like no other time in history,which He is obviously talking about the persecution of the saints,the world is not going to persecute each other,because they are together going against all people who oppose their kingdom,but who are they going to fight,but only the Christians,for God is going to send strong delusion to all that do not love God,and they will follow the beast kingdom,and take the mark,in which they do not have the opportunity to repent of their sins anymore.

They all together as one in the beast kingdom,in which it will be separate the world,and Christians,the only people to tribulate on,and persecute is the Christians,which the Bible says the man of sin destroys the mighty,and holy people,although they want to attack Israel,but the Bible says she is protected during the whole 7 years period.

The world can repent of their sins during the first half of the 7 years period,so the saints are going through the first half,but then the beast makes war against the saints,so they will be in to the last half.

And that is because God is love,and will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,so God is going to let them go that far,to make war against the Christians,and then when they are gone,to attack Israel,in which Jesus comes back with the saints,and saves Israel,for there will be no excuses for what they did,because they showed they surely did not care about God,and His people.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
Joe 3:3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
Joe 3:4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head.

Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Joe 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
Joe 3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Your premise is that everyday tribulation is the same thing as the GT.

THEREFORE.......and you fill in the blanks.

Unprecedented death and destruction is the narrative of the GT.

JACOBS /ISRAEL'S TROUBLE...is or main clue.

Pray that you be counted WORTHY to escape is our next clue.

 

[popeye]

Hi there Awatukee.

You are sure looking good today sir.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi there Awatukee.

You are sure looking good today sir.

God bless you too popeye! The glory is His, for it is his word and I'm just expounding on it.

 

[Yet]

Hello Mapper,



Again your error, along with others, is 1) not understanding that there is a difference between common trial and tribulation which comes at the hands of men, which the Lord said all believer's would experience, opposed to the prophesied time of God's direct wrath which will take place during that last seven years. And 2) you and others have not understood the severity of God's coming unprecedented wrath. I continue to point out that, by Christ's sacrifice, he rescued those living believer's who will be here just prior to the on-set of God's wrath to remove them from earth according to his promise.

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

After Paul gives a detailed account of the resurrection and catching away of the dead and living in 1 Thes.4:13-18, it is then followed by a description of God's wrath, which also demonstrates the order in which they occur, first the gathering, then the wrath.

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."


In the scripture above, regarding those who are not of Christ, when that time of wrath comes, they will not escape. Then for those who are in Christ Paul says,

"but you brothers and sisters are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

Therefore, what would be the difference if both believer's and unbeliever's remain on the earth during the time of God's wrath? What does Paul mean when he says "this day should not take you by surprise?" The way in which that day will not take believer's by surprise, is because the living believer's at the time of the resurrection will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Also, regarding this coming wrath, in verse 9, Paul says,

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

The other truth that you and others are not understanding is that, there is another group introduced in chapter 7 in the book of Revelation that are distinct from the church, which you guy's continue to ignore. You and others need to pay attention to this information that I continue to present and investigate it. Don't just brush it aside as invalid! Search it out for yourselves!

Revelation 1 thru the very end of chapter 3: Only the word "Ekklesia" translated as "Church" is used to identify believer's and the word "Hagios" translated "Saints" is never seen within those same chapters.

Revelation 4 onward and beginning at 5:8: Only the word "Saints" is used through the entire narrative of God's wrath and the word "Church" is never seen again, until outside of the narrative in Rev.22:16.

Now, if both the words "Church" and "Saints" were used interchangeably throughout all of the chapters within the book of Revelation, then I could not make the claim of there being a distinction between these two groups. But because the use of the word church is contained within chapters 1 thru 3 and "Saints" are contained within the reset of the chapters, God is demonstrating that these saints are a different group separate from the church.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

If the group above was the church, why would the reader be introduced to them when John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches? The very fact that the elder is introducing them demonstrates that they are another group other than the church. Also, the fact that the elder is even asking John who they are and the fact that he doesn't know, demonstrates that they are not the church. Therefore, every reference to the word "Saints" that is found from Rev.5:8 onward is referring to the group above and not to the church. Doesn't the Spirit within you send up a red flag regarding the fact that in Chapters 1 through 3 the word "church" is used 19 times and then after chapter 4 it is mysteriously absent? Crickets, chirp .... chirp.

Stop repeating the popular responses to discredit these truths and look into these things, all of you!

You said '..you guys continue to ignore. You and others need to pay attention to this information that I continue to present and investigate it. Don't just brush it aside as invalid. Search it out for yourselves.'

Boy, do I understand what you mean. I've written on certain truths over and over and over again. Most brush it all away calling me a nut job. Yep! I do get it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You said '..you guys continue to ignore. You and others need to pay attention to this information that I continue to present and investigate it. Don't just brush it aside as invalid. Search it out for yourselves.'

Boy, do I understand what you mean. I've written on certain truths over and over and over again. Most brush it all away calling me a nut job. Yep! I do get it.

Hello Yet,

I know that the abandonment of the truth it is just par for the time period that we are living in, for we are truly that generation of the last days. What generation has seen the technology where people are having chip implants under the skin of the hand. That this technology even exists is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God's word. In addition to that, the distortion of God's word on every major Bible topic which also demonstrates that we are approaching that last seven years. For the most part, the problem stems from people getting their information on the word of God from hear-say, websites, books, you tube, and from all of the false teachings out in the world that people adopt as the word of God. I truly believe that this is the fulfillment of the following scripture:

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."


Have a blessed day in Christ

 

[Yet]

Hey AHW, I'm on. I like the way you teach. Refreshing. Just give me the word of God, not the pulpit twist. 'The Pulpit Twist'!

Sounds like a new dance craze, eh? Let's see now!

'One o'clock, two o'clock, three o'clock twist. Four o'clock, five o'clock, six o'clock twist. Seven o'clock, eight o'clock, nine o'clock twist. We're gonna 'twist around' the TRUTH tonight.'

 

[PlainWord]

Until people can get it into their heads that the Great Tribulation is the attack and near destruction of Israel they will never be able to sort any of this out. There is no need to rapture the church from all over the planet to avoid an attack on Israel.

 

[PlainWord]

Your premise is that everyday tribulation is the same thing as the GT.

THEREFORE.......and you fill in the blanks.

Unprecedented death and destruction is the narrative of the GT.

JACOBS /ISRAEL'S TROUBLE...is or main clue.

Pray that you be counted WORTHY to escape is our next clue.

The Hour of Trial is NOT the Great Tribulation. The Hour of Trial comes upon the whole world to test those who dwell upon the earth.

The Great Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's Trouble. This is only for Israel. By the time Gog and it's allies finish with Israel, there will be few Jews left. Fury will show in God's face and man does He let them have it.

 

[DP]

Clearly many just don't understand what the great tribulation event is actually about. There appears to be some loosening up in the minds of some brethren where the Message is getting through, but then the children of darkness start up their false 'we're all going to be killed in the tribulation' dichotomy.

The main warning our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul gave about that future event is to not allow any man to deceive you. The main event the trib is going to be about is deception of thinking Christ has come when the pseudo-messiah appears on earth working great signs and wonders like God, saying he is Christ.

The reason why it will be a time on earth that no one has ever seen before is because of that false messiah coming to play God in Jerusalem.

Forget all you know or heard about some flesh man being the Antichrist, it's going to be Satan himself coming as he is. That's why the majority won't be prepared for the deception he's going to work in person, on earth.

How is Satan going to try and win by going around killing Christ's elect during the tribulation? He doesn't want to kill us, he wants us to bow in worship to him in place of God! Like in the Book of Daniel, it was only after Daniel refused to bow to the king of Babylon that he was delivered up to be thrown in the lion's den.

 

[popeye]

The Hour of Trial is NOT the Great Tribulation. The Hour of Trial comes upon the whole world to test those who dwell upon the earth.

The Great Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's Trouble. This is only for Israel. By the time Gog and it's allies finish with Israel, there will be few Jews left. Fury will show in God's face and man does He let them have it.

I bet your wife told you that

Just kidding

But I more or less sort of agree with a few minor changes...
Lol

 

[PlainWord]

I bet your wife told you that

Just kidding

But I more or less sort of agree with a few minor changes...
Lol

LOL. My wife isn't that much into prophesy unless it directly involves her.

I will take this sort of agreement as happy news.

 

[PlainWord]

Just to pick up on and clarify what DP said. The Great Tribulation is the all out attack on Israel and those living there. The battle for Jerusalem will be led by the "King of the North" who leads the mostly Islamic forces of Gog and Gog's allies.

Many who understand will come to help. The people who know their God will fight against this evil. I can see plenty of Christians going to Israel to help. Many of them will be killed also. There aren't going to be many Jews or Christians fooled by this ruthless leader from the North. Instead they will do their best to instruct the world to not believe the King of the North. Some listen, some don't.

Once Jerusalem has fallen and the King of the North solidifies his victory, then and only then, will he declare himself above all. Now this is important. He does not claim to be God or Christ. He instead insults God and Jesus. He claims to be above them both and above everything else. This King will prosper until God's Wrath hits him hard. But before God's wrath is poured out, the King of the North will fool the unbelieving world (NOT THE ELECT and NOT any true CHRISTIAN).

In summary the Great Tribulation is the slaughter of 2/3 of Israel, most of the rest scatter. Then this King will deceive a bunch of the unbelieving world into worshiping him.

I disagree with DP that the King of the North (AKA, the Man of Sin) is Satan. Rather, he is the Son of Perdition, just as Judas was. He is a really bad man and may possibly be a true son of Satan. If not an actual son, the King of North will be in terms of his spiritual alignment. Dan 11:45 tells us that he will come to his end between the seas (Med and Persian Gulf) and the Holy Land. We look at Eze 28 and see this:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever.”’”

This is the Body where the Eagles have gathered and where the Tares are taken. I'm sure DP is going to go off on this but he needs to show where I am wrong.