IMMORTALITY IN THE WILDERNESS. THE AIM FOR JESUS TEMPTATION

[Willie-T]

I believe you are correct. Jesus had the capability of sinning just like the rest of us. Jesus he DID inherit the sinful nature. If Jesus did not inherit the sinful nature then the tempations would have meant nothing as then he would have been incapable of sinning. Jesus had to be fully man for this to have been of any credit. The only difference is that Jesus is also fully God. Satan knew Jesus had the capability of sinning which is why he tempted Him. If Jesus was incapable of sinning then satan would have left Him alone.

Also if Jesus was incapable of sinning then the statement "He knew no sin" would read "He could not sin". If Jesus was incapable of sinning then "being like Jesus" would be impossible. Because Jesus was capable of sinning He now gives us a "picture" to follow. Because He was capable of sinning yet did not sin gives us the perfect example of how we are to live our lives.

We are still in disagreement.

We have a sin nature. He did not.

This means that if we are born, and live our entire lives without sinning (ignoring the fact that rejecting Jesus is sin) yet do not accept Jesus, we are facing eternity in a real bind.

He had no "sin nature", and therefore, when He lived a sinless life, He qualified to be seen as sinless by the Father............ something we are not seen as (without accepting and believing on Jesus)

 

[Grace777x70]

We are still in disagreement.

We have a sin nature. He did not.

This means that if we are born, and live our entire lives without sinning (ignoring the fact that rejecting Jesus is sin) yet do not accept Jesus, we are facing eternity in a real bind.

He had no "sin nature", and therefore, when He lived a sinless life, He qualified to be seen as sinless by the Father............ something we are not seen as (without accepting and believing on Jesus)

I agree...there is a vast difference between having a body of flesh and having that body of flesh with the sin principle in it. ( Rom. 7:23 )

This is why we have the circumcision of Christ - of the heart and flesh - where the new creation in Christ is "cut away from the flesh" ( as in physical circumcision is a type of ) - and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit in this men man in Christ. Col. 2:11 and Eph. 1:13

 

[BeyondET]

I agree with you that Jesus' baptism was after the temptations. I came to that conclusion from a careful study of the Gospel of John. Recognizing that the gospels are not always in chronological order makes this a difficult question. Lauren quotes the gospel of Mark - it does look there like the baptism was first.

Yea it took me awhile to accept that it wasn't in order, and I agree it does appear to be right after the baptism though there are many example of the same thing within scripture.... I can't remember which book but when Jesus mother and brothers come looking for him.. Right before that he is in the country side then wham his indoors or outdoors depending on what verses your looking at....

 

[LaurenTM]

Lauren,

This was not directed at you. I just used your post as an intro so that none of us would be left wondering what I was talking about.

We Christians have long done something the Dinosaur People on PBS do all the time. And that is to make guesses and assumptions, then turn those into "facts" in their minds, running wildly, from that point on, as though their conclusions were hills to battle for and die upon in stubborn resistance to any further examination.

ie: "It is possible dinosaurs lived as long ago as xxx million years."
"Therefore, the Earth would have to be much older."
"Now, since we know the Earth is xxxxx million years old.............."

We needn't laugh and scoff, since we do many similar things in the outlandish conclusions we come to about the Bible and our religious history. And it has become my desire to quelch that irrational information in my own personal studies.

no worries...did not mind answering

 

[LaurenTM]

I agree with you that Jesus' baptism was after the temptations. I came to that conclusion from a careful study of the Gospel of John. Recognizing that the gospels are not always in chronological order makes this a difficult question. Lauren quotes the gospel of Mark - it does look there like the baptism was first.

I quoted the first 3 gospels actually

 

[LaurenTM]

Actually, sometimes my memory and my brain don't work together! I got my facts turned around. I believe the baptism was first, and then the wilderness! The quotes from Matt., Mark, Luke made me doublecheck my thinking - and I looked back to my notes from studying John 1 and found that I concluded from studying John 1 that the baptism was first followed by the wilderness.

I quoted the first 3 gospels which are in agreement with each other and John does not record it...which does not mean it did not happen or that it happened differently

the highlighted above is what you believe now?

 

[Naboth]

I quoted the first 3 gospels which are in agreement with each other and John does not record it...which does not mean it did not happen or that it happened differently

the highlighted above is what you believe now?

If I am not incorrect only Matthew and Luke contain both the baptism and temptation accounts, but all four Gospels contain the baptism account. I could be wrong though.

 

[Sac49]

We are still in disagreement.

We have a sin nature. He did not.

This means that if we are born, and live our entire lives without sinning (ignoring the fact that rejecting Jesus is sin) yet do not accept Jesus, we are facing eternity in a real bind.

He had no "sin nature", and therefore, when He lived a sinless life, He qualified to be seen as sinless by the Father............ something we are not seen as (without accepting and believing on Jesus)

Yeah i should have worded that different. Sorry. Instead of saying "sin nature" i should have said "the ability to sin". Jesus was capable of sinning yet He didnt. Jesus could not have been without sin if He had a "sin nature" due to the fact that with a "sin nature" sin would have been in Him from the start of His "human" life. (Only way i could figure how to word my last statement refering to Jesus "humananity"). Having a "sin nature" and the "capability of sinning" are two different things and i used the wrong wording in my post.

I was totally wrong in the way i wrote that in the wording i used. Please forgive my oversight in this. Too bad it is too late for me to correct this lol. So again i appologize for my oversight in this.

 

[Willie-T]

Yeah i should have worded that different. Sorry. Instead of saying "sin nature" i should have said "the ability to sin". Jesus was capable of sinning yet He didnt. Jesus could not have been without sin if He had a "sin nature" due to the fact that with a "sin nature" sin would have been in Him from the start of His "human" life. (Only way i could figure how to word my last statement refering to Jesus "humananity"). Having a "sin nature" and the "capability of sinning" are two different things and i used the wrong wording in my post.

I was totally wrong in the way i wrote that in the wording i used. Please forgive my oversight in this. Too bad it is too late for me to correct this lol. So again i appologize for my oversight in this.

....................NP

 

[Sac49]

Yes in my opinion they were in a different order.. And those have been worn out long ago thus why we have copies..

To say the line up exactly is false, anyone with proper reason can see that, when reading those.. One says he met both men on a beach and the two others have a different take..

Here's another, John in prison saying to his disciples go and ask Jesus is he the one,, ahh didn't he baptize Jesus before going to prison because he never made it out if prison he was beheaded in prison... The proper order for that one is the wrong use of the translated word (prison) this has caused confusion some seem to think John was trying to prove a point to his disciples or something well Jesus would not have said go back to John and tell him this...

Well seems as we are in disagreement on this. I personally think it would take more than just messaging on here to discuss this topic. Whether the order is different or not Jesus still did not sin in the temptations. This is the main point we should understand in regaurds to the temptations. IMO I dont think this is such an issue that changes our faith in Christ. It is also not a subject that should cause a rift between two brothers.

If you are ok with it, I say we agree to disagree on this subject and not let it get between two brothers in Christ.

 

[BeyondET]

I believe you are correct. Jesus had the capability of sinning just like the rest of us. Jesus he DID inherit the sinful nature. If Jesus did not inherit the sinful nature then the tempations would have meant nothing as then he would have been incapable of sinning. Jesus had to be fully man for this to have been of any credit. The only difference is that Jesus is also fully God. Satan knew Jesus had the capability of sinning which is why he tempted Him. If Jesus was incapable of sinning then satan would have left Him alone.

Also if Jesus was incapable of sinning then the statement "He knew no sin" would read "He could not sin". If Jesus was incapable of sinning then "being like Jesus" would be impossible. Because Jesus was capable of sinning He now gives us a "picture" to follow. Because He was capable of sinning yet did not sin gives us the perfect example of how we are to live our lives.

You know what is funny to me, the OP never said the words sin nature, he said inherited the sinful flesh, which is way different than acting sin out or having a sinful nature...

Now it might not have been the most perfect way to discribe that, that Jesus was of the bloodline his fleshly body...
Thus he took upon his shoulders the worlds sin, he couldn't have done that unless the body he was in was pass down from one generation to another unto him... Which human flesh includes every man or woman, we all come from the same place back in time.. No one is born with a sinless body.... It happened, God curse the human flesh in the beginning of mankind because of the disobedience of man.. pretty simple...

 

[BeyondET]

Well seems as we are in disagreement on this. I personally think it would take more than just messaging on here to discuss this topic. Whether the order is different or not Jesus still did not sin in the temptations. This is the main point we should understand in regaurds to the temptations. IMO I dont think this is such an issue that changes our faith in Christ. It is also not a subject that should cause a rift between two brothers.

If you are ok with it, I say we agree to disagree on this subject and not let it get between two brothers in Christ.

Well here's the skinny,,, I never said Jesus sinned in the temptation, Though if your reading people's post about what I said, most of what they have said is a flat out ambush....

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus came "in the likeness of sinful flesh" - in that He had a physical body but without sin - the entity itself passed down through the blood of the father in it. The mystery of iniquity. Sin - the noun - the entity itself as Vine's Dictionary says of it - is in the blood.

This is why the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus in Mary's womb - no passing of blood. The baby's blood system does not come from the mother in the womb - it has it's own blood supply.

Romans 8:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

 

[BeyondET]

Jesus came "in the likeness of sinful flesh" - in that He had a physical body but without sin - the entity itself passed down through the blood of the father in it. The mystery of iniquity. Sin - the noun - the entity itself as Vine's Dictionary says of it - is in the blood.

This is why the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus in Mary's womb - no passing of blood. The baby's blood system does not come from the mother in the womb - it has it's own blood supply.

Romans 8:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

I do agree with a fetus having its own blood, but that blood contains DNA from its parent, here with Jesus there was only one set from the mother..

 

[BeyondET]

I find this most humorous during Christmas, most folks have seen the depliction of baby Jesus in a manger with the wise man standing by with gifts, that complete rubbish,, if one reads deeply into scripture, you will see that Jesus was born in a manger, but it was custom back then when 8 days had passed then the sacrament was performed in the temple.. Then Mary and Joseph took Jesus back home to Nazareth then the wise men was sent out by Herod to Bethlehem to find him but they followed the star back to where he was in Joseph house not the manger...

 

[LaurenTM]

If I am not incorrect only Matthew and Luke contain both the baptism and temptation accounts, but all four Gospels contain the baptism account. I could be wrong though.

from my post 17...first 3 gospels say the same about the baptism of Christ and His journey into the wilderness occurring AFTER the baptism...in my post 17, the verse for Mark were only 12 & 13...I have posted from 9 -13 this time re your post above

the gospel of John does not directly deal with Jesus baptism

you know, if people are going to start an op, post in a thread or tell others what scritpure states, they should be able to quote the reference and include the scripture...readers should not have to do it for them

Matthew 4:1-11​

1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. 3 And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” 4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”5 Then the devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,
‘HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU’;
and
‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP,
SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’”
7 Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’”
8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; 9 and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’” 11 Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

Mark 1:9-13
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”​

12 Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness. 13 And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.

Luke 4:1-13
Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He became hungry. 3 And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.” 4 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE.’”5 And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 “Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” 8 Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”​

9 And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here; 10 for it is written,
‘HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU,’
11 and,
‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP,
SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’”
12 And Jesus answered and said to him, “It is said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’”
13 When the devil had finished every temptation, he left Him until an opportune time.

 

[Naboth]

from my post 17...first 3 gospels say the same about the baptism of Christ and His journey into the wilderness occurring AFTER the baptism...in my post 17, the verse for Mark were only 12 & 13...I have posted from 9 -13 this time re your post above

the gospel of John does not directly deal with Jesus baptism

you know, if people are going to start an op, post in a thread or tell others what scritpure states, they should be able to quote the reference and include the scripture...readers should not have to do it for them

Matthew 4:1-11​

1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. 3 And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” 4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”5 Then the devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,
‘HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU’;
and
‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP,
SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’”
7 Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’”
8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; 9 and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’” 11 Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

Mark 1:9-13
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”​

12 Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness. 13 And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.

Luke 4:1-13
Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He became hungry. 3 And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.” 4 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE.’”5 And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 “Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” 8 Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”​

9 And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here; 10 for it is written,
‘HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU,’
11 and,
‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP,
SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’”
12 And Jesus answered and said to him, “It is said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’”
13 When the devil had finished every temptation, he left Him until an opportune time.

Yea I know what you meant, just pointing out for the sake of the discussion I think Matthew and Luke are the only ones that contain both the baptism and temptation episodes. Good looks on the Mark mention also, I did not notice that before. To which I would quite agree it appears as if the temptation came after the baptism.

Also I think Gospel of John contains the baptism narrative, but in a shorter form in the first chapter.

As for the OP I find no fault, I think it is an interesting topic.

 

[LaurenTM]

Yea I know what you meant, just pointing out for the sake of the discussion I think Matthew and Luke are the only ones that contain both the baptism and temptation episodes. To which I would quite agree it appears as if the temptation came after the baptism.

Also I think Gospel of John contains the baptism narrative, but in a shorter form in the first chapter.

listen

can you read?

that is not what I posted

you are repeating what you said when I have clearly posted that THREE gospels contain the narrative

and the gospel of John does not directly contain it

you can accept scripture or not...

you did not even read what I wrote, so I guess I will just see this as playing games like your other friends

it seems your interests also lie in an attempt to prove the Bible wrong

Christians do not attempt to prove the Bible wrong, so I wonder what is really the faith being represented by these posts

 

[Naboth]

listen

can you read?

that is not what I posted

you are repeating what you said when I have clearly posted that THREE gospels contain the narrative

and the gospel of John does not directly contain it

you can accept scripture or not...it seems you cannot

Edited the prior post to contain the Mark reference, sorry.

Also here you go for the Gospel of John containing the baptism narrative.

John 1:29-36

[SUP]29 [/SUP]The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
[SUP]36 [/SUP]And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

 

[LaurenTM]

I covered it

you twisted it

enough

As for the OP I find no fault, I think it is an interesting topic.

the opening post is heretical

I believe you though