Imputed Righteousness of Christ

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Ariel82

Guest
#61
lol love you too :)

did you notice an absence of response?

I do wonder what they have faith in since they spend so much time telling lies about what they think others have faith in.

as for the button Abiding, it seems to be broken, but I was reading something from Luther yesterday, but its more about kill than banning folks.......

From this observe what raging and furious people we have been these many years, in
that we desired to force others to believe; the Turks with the sword, heretics with fire, the
Jews with death, and thus outroot the tares by our own power, as if we were the ones who
could reign over hearts and spirits, and make them pious and right, which God’s Word
alone must do. But by murder we separate the people from the Word, so that it cannot
possibly work upon them and we bring thus, with one stroke a double murder upon ourselves,
as far as it lies in our power, namely, in that we murder the body for time and the soul for
eternity, and afterwards say we did God a service by our actions, and wish to merit something
special in heaven.

6. Therefore this passage should in all reason terrify the grand inquisitors and murderers
of the people, where they are not brazened faced, even if they have to deal with true heretics.

Assorted Sermons By Martin Luther - Christian Classics Ethereal Library.

from his tares and wheat sermon


I don't know I still pray that God will open their eyes to the deception of the StandinginGap website and actually read the Bible for themselves instead of believing his twisted version of it and of history and of pastor past and present.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#62
I said button not trigger:p
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#63
In honor of Skinski I will highlight in red some of the words of Luther that he apparent missed reading the first time since he continues to falsely accuse Luther of NOT teaching them......


the problem you have with Luther is that you don't understand the need for the first kind of righteousness at all and therefore only have half the gospel.


Two Kinds of Righteousness By
The Reverend Father
Martin Luther



Brethren, “have this mind among yourselves, which you have in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of god, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped” [Phil. 2:5-6]

[1] There are two kinds of Christian righteousness, just as man’s sin is of two kinds. The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without. This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30: “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” In John 11:25-26, Christ himself states: “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me.....shall never die.” Later he adds in John 14:6, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.” This righteousness, then, is given to men in baptism and whenever they are truly repentant. Therefore a man can with confidence boast in Christ and say: “Mine are Christ’s living, doing, and speaking, his suffering and dying, mine as much as if I had lived, done, spoken, suffered, and died as he did.” Just as a bridegroom possesses all that is his bride’s and she all that is his—for the two have all things in common because they are one flesh[Gen. 2:24]—so Christ and the church are one spirit [Eph. 5:29-32]. Thus the blessed God and Father of mercies has, according to Peter, granted to us very great and precious gifts in Christ [II Pet. 1:4]. Paul writes in II Cor. 1:3; “Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.”


[2] This inexpressible grace and blessing was long ago promised to Abraham in Gen. 12:3; “And in thy seed (that is in Christ) shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.” Isaiah 9:6 says, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given.” “To us,” it says, because he is entirely ours with all his benefits if we believe in him, as we read in Rom. 8:32, “He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him?” Therefore everything which Christ has is ours, graciously bestowed on us unworthy men out of God’s sheer mercy, although we have rather deserved wrath and condemnation, and hell also. Even Christ himself, therefore, who says he came to do the most sacred will of his Father [John 6:38], became obedient to him; and whatever he did, he did it for us and desired it to be ours, saying, “I am among you as one who serves” [Luke 22:27]. He also states, “This is my body, which is given for you” [Luke 22:19]. Isaiah 43:24 says, “You have burdened me with your sins, you have wearied me with your iniquities.”



[3] Through faith in Christ, therefore, Christ’s righteousness becomes our righteousness and all that he has becomes ours; rather, he himself becomes ours. Therefore the Apostle calls it “the righteousness of God” in Rom. 1:17; For in the gospel “the righteousness of God is revealed...; as it is written, “The righteous shall live by his faith.” Finally, in the same epistle, chapter 3:28, such a faith is called “the righteousness of God”: “We hold that a man is justified by faith.” This is an infinite righteousness, and one that swallows up all sins in a moment, for it is impossible that sin should exist in Christ. On the contrary, he who trusts in Christ exists in Christ; he is one with Christ, having the same righteousness as he. It is therefore impossible that sin should remain in him. This righteousness is primary; it is the basis, the cause, the source of all our own actual righteousness. For this is the righteousness given in place of the original righteousness lost in Adam. It accomplishes the same as that original righteousness would have accomplished; rather, it accomplishes more.


[4] It is in this sense that we are to understand the prayer in Psalm 30: “in thee, O Lord, do I seek refuge; let me never be put to shame; in thy righteousness deliver me!” It does not say “in my” but “in thy righteousness,” that is, in the righteousness of Christ my God which becomes ours through faith and by the grace and mercy of god. In many passages of the Psalter, faith is called “the work of the Lord,” “confession,” “power of God,” “mercy,” “truth,” “righteousness.” All these are names for faith in Christ, rather, for the righteousness which is in Christ. The Apostle therefore dares to say in Gal. 2:20, “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” He further states in Eph. 3:14-17: “I bow my knee before the Father . . . that . . . he may grant . . . that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.”


[5] Therefore this alien righteousness, instilled in us without our works by grace alone—while the Father, to be sure, inwardly draws us to Christ—is set opposite original sin, likewise alien, which we acquire without our works by birth alone. Christ daily drives out the old Adam more and more in accordance with the extent to which faith and knowledge of Christ grow. For alien righteousness is not instilled all at once, but it begins, makes progress, and is finally perfected at the end through death.


[6] The second kind of righteousness is our proper righteousness, not because we alone work it, but because we work with that first and alien righteousness. This is that manner of life spent profitably in good works, in the first place, in slaying the flesh and crucifying the desires with respect to the self, of which we read in Gal. 5:24, “And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” In the second place, this righteousness consists in love to one’s neighbor, and in the third place, in meekness and fear towards God. The Apostle is full of references to these, as is all the rest of Scripture. He briefly summarizes everything, however, in Titus 2:12, “ In this world let us live soberly (pertaining to crucifying one’s own flesh), justly (referring to one’s neighbor), and devoutly (relating to God).”


[7] This righteousness is the product of the righteousness of the first type, actually its fruit and consequence, for we read in Gal. 5:22, “But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” For because the works mentioned are works of men, it is obvious that in this passage a spiritual man is called “spirit.” In John 3:6 we read, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” This righteousness goes on to complete the first for it ever strives to do away with the old Adam and to destroy the body of sin. Therefore it hates itself and loves its neighbor; it does not seek its own good, but that of another, and in this its whole way of living consists. For in that it hates itself and does not seek its own, it crucifies the flesh. Because it seeks the good of another, it works love. Thus in each sphere it does God’s will living soberly with self, justly with neighbor, devoutly toward God.



[8] This righteousness follows the example of Christ in this respect and is transformed into his likeness. It is precisely this that Christ requires. Just as he himself did all things for us, not seeking his own good but ours only—and in this he was most obedient to God the Father—so he desires that we also should set the same example for our neighbors.


[9] We read in Rom. 6:19 that this righteousness is set opposite our own actual sin: “For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.” Therefore through the first righteousness arises the voice of the bridegroom who says to the soul, “I am yours,” but through the second comes the voice of the bride who answers, “I am yours.” Then the marriage is consummated; it becomes strong and complete in accordance with the Song of Solomon 2:16, “My beloved is mine and I am his.” Then the soul no longer seeks to be righteous in and for itself, but it has Christ as its righteousness and therefore seeks only the welfare of others. Therefore the Lord of the Synagogue threatens through the prophet “And I will make to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride” [Jer 7:34].
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#64
good job Ariel.
it won't help skinski or the gappers since they are already way far gone into their own stuff.
but it's good to show those who accuse protestants of being antimonians it ain't so.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#65
one can hope and pray.

perhaps we will witness divine intervention and they will repent and turn from their sins.
 
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Desoto

Guest
#66
It seems so many believers want to add, in some way, shape or form, there own work to the free gift of righteousness by faith. Dying to self is not something that we do but a mindset that we are to have. Because i reckon myself dead to the law and all of its boundaries, I can live for God out of the abundance of His grace, which is above the law. So many of us need to cease from our own efforts to live a life that is pleasing to God and simply accept and rest in the truth that we are right now and forever, the righteousness of God because we are in Christ Jesus.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#67
Arial... Martin Luther is teaching a "gradual crucifixion of the flesh" ie. sinning less and less.

I don't deny that Reformed Theology preaches a form of righteousness, they most certainly do. The error is that preach that one is "cloaked" in the righteousness of Jesus whilst one is still ACTUALLY unrighteous and that "sanctification" is a process of "sinning less and less." Thus a porn addict can get saved and justified by the cloak of the Imputed Righteousness of Christ and then OVER TIME he eventually conquers his porn addiction. Thus a convert remains double-minded serving two masters, in bondage to sin, waiting for the old man to be crucified eventually in the future. It is ERROR.

There is no such thing as a forensic cloak of righteousness for righteousness is in what YOU DO FROM THE HEART. Abraham was credited as righteous because he yielded to God from the heart. It is the same with Christian's, God imputes a believer righteous by faith because faith is simply trusting and yielding to God from the heart. There is no disobedience.

Martin Luther doctrine cloaks ongoing disobedience which is why there exists the teaching of the Carnal Christian. John MacArthur doesn't like the term "Carnal Christian" and thus will instead refer to the "Disobedient Christian." In the minds of these preachers the carnal and disobedient Christian can be saved and justified but are merely falling short of their identity in Christ. It is a very messy theology of error which is full of contradictions.

One moment they will preach you have to obey God and then later they will contradict themselves and teach that one can be secure in salvation while disobedient but just receive chastisement. They will teach that if one completely falls away then they were probably never saved to begin with and yet in the next breath teach that one can hold assurance of salvation if one just trusts in Jesus. What if the one who was "trusting in Jesus" goes reprobate the next week? Was he never saved to begin with now? The whole system is contradictory nonsense.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#68
It seems so many believers want to add, in some way, shape or form, there own work to the free gift of righteousness by faith. Dying to self is not something that we do It isn't?????

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Denying yourself, picking up your cross (an instrument of death) and following Jesus is not something you do? It is just a mindset?

...but a mindset that we are to have. Because i reckon myself dead to the law and all of its boundaries, I can live for God out of the abundance of His grace, which is above the law. So many of us need to cease from our own efforts to live a life that is pleasing to God

Cease from your own efforts?

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.


Strive - G75 - agōnizomai
From G73; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.


Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Work Out - G2716 - katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).


and simply accept and rest in the truth that we are right now and forever, the righteousness of God because we are in Christ Jesus. We rest from works done apart from God but that does not mean DO NOTHING. Faith IS a work we are not to cease from! Love is a labour.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


Whoever you are listening to for teaching you need to flee from them for your life.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#69
see the above is an example of totally misunderstanding what others post without actually listening to what is being said.

"Dying to self is not something that we do but a mindset that we are to have. Because i reckon myself dead to the law and all of its boundaries, I can live for God out of the abundance of His grace, which is above the law."

let me translate for you Skinski....

We must not just DO things to try and die to oneself, one should have a MINDSET that causes one to die to oneself. We are dead to the law and its boundaries (the letter of the law) and we LIVE for GOD because of His grace which is GREATER than the LAW. We follow the SPIRIT because it leads us to do good works that go above and beyond the Letter of the Law.

any better?
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#70
see the above is an example of totally misunderstanding what others post without actually listening to what is being said.

"Dying to self is not something that we do but a mindset that we are to have. Because i reckon myself dead to the law and all of its boundaries, I can live for God out of the abundance of His grace, which is above the law."

let me translate for you Skinski....

We must not just DO things to try and die to oneself, one should have a MINDSET that causes one to die to oneself. We are dead to the law and its boundaries (the letter of the law) and we LIVE for GOD because of His grace which is GREATER than the LAW. We follow the SPIRIT because it leads us to do good works that go above and beyond the Letter of the Law.

any better?
Yes that is better and I agree with that. Yet that is not what he said.

The whole context of this thread is in regards to DOING as opposed to being IMPUTED DOING.

So when someone responds with...
So many of us need to cease from our own efforts to live a life that is pleasing to God and simply accept and rest in the truth that we are right now and forever, the righteousness of God because we are in Christ Jesus.
It sure sounds to me like they are speaking within the context of the Imputed Righteousness of Christ doctrine which is clear error if that is so.

If I jumped to a false conclusion in response to that post then I am in error and ought not have been so hasty. Yet I don't think I did. Dying to self is indeed something we do.

The free gift is eternal life in Jesus Christ which one enters into through repentance and faith whereby one strives to enter in at the strait gate and narrow way and henceforth work out their salvation in fear and trembling. Many do not see it that way but rather believe that one enters into Jesus Christ by simply "accepting Him into their heart" without actually having been broken whereby the iniquity within is purged. Thus they come into a "false notion" of being saved whilst in reality they are still in bondage to sin and under condemnation.

When one is under this false notion they'll typically wait on God to clean them up never realising that it is they that have to lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and that it is they that have to crucify their flesh with the passions and desires. God does not do that for anyone, He urges people to do it but will not make them do it.

One of the greatest deceptions of Satan is to convince someone they are already saved when they are in fact not saved. Thus His perfect deception is to corrupt sound doctrine in such a manner that an assurance of salvation can envelope the mind of someone who remains dead in their sins. Such an assurance is basically an innoculation against true reconciliation.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#71
I don't know of anyone teaching of "carnal" or "disobedient" Christians.

I only know Christians who have been born again and have the Holy Spirit leading them. I know that God gives us Christ's Righteousness so that we do not worry about our own standing with God but focus on doing good works for the benefit of those around us. we focus on others and not ourselves.

I don't see how you teach differently since you say people can make mistakes. "One moment they will preach you have to obey God and then later they will contradict themselves and teach that one can be secure in salvation while disobedient but just receive chastisement"

you mean you have never disobeyed God?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#72
see the above is an example of totally misunderstanding what others post without actually listening to what is being said.
I like this Ariel.

It is the same reason why there are troubled teens.
It is the same reason why there are angry debates.

People, including myself, just slow down and listen.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#73
Actually it is a matter of double imputation.

The sins of the elect were imputed to Christ, so Christ became guilty in His person for the sins of His people and was justly punished for those sins, though He was perfectly sinless (2Cor.5:21, Isa.53:4-6, 1Petr.2:24).

The righteousness of Christ was imputed to His people, thereby His people was made righteous in the person of their substitute and are therefore acceptable before God, even though they are not perfectly sinless (2Cor.5:21, Rom.5:19).

If one does not believe in salvation by this imputed righteousness, then one obviously believes in salvation by a righteousness of his own. It has to be one of them two and not both at the same time. They can never mix.

Hence in Rom.10:3, God states that those who are ignorant of God's righteousness are lost since they are yet going about to establish their own righteousness. What is this righteousness of God that is so crucially important that those who are ignorant about it are said to be lost? Rom. 1:17 says that the gospel reveals God's righteousness.

One key passage that gives more information about this subject is found in Romans 3:



Now, let's look at Psalm 32:



Back to Paul in Romans 4:



Clearly David was talking about the blessedness of the man to whom God not only does not impute iniquity but also does impute righteousness apart from works. The perfect righteousness of Christ is imputed or legally charged to God's people, and David, just as all Old Testament Saints, believed this. Psalm 32:1-2 shows us that the atoning blood is that by which our transgressions are lifted and our sins covered. The imputed righteousness is that by which we are declared righteous before God. Same principle in OT as NT.

To affirm the biblical principle of imputed righteousness is very important when refuting justification by works since it clearly shows that justification is by something wholly outside of the efforts of man which causes God to declare us righteous. Works- and self righteousness advocates, who are unregenerate and do not believe the gospel, always oppose and hate the doctrine of imputed righteousness. Because, even they, understands that, if true, it means there is no space to boast left for man.

The gospel reveals how God is just when He justifies the ungodly. It reveals God as a "just God and a Saviour" (Isa.45:21). Any other "gospel" that reveals God to be neither a just God nor a Savior is a false gospel. The true and living God is one who does not show love, mercy, and grace at the expense of His justice. The righteous demands of His Law must be completely satisfied for all those whom He shows love, mercy and grace. And the true Christ established such a righteousness that demands the salvation of all those whom He represented.
This is absolutely brilliant in its simplicity and truth.

Can we boldly come to the throne of grace based on our righteousness? No, of course not. The bible states that our righteousness is like dirty rags...

But we can come boldly to the throne of grace when the Holy Spirit shows us that it is not by our righteousness that we come before Him, but by His Righteousness we can come before Him.

He has made us clean. He has given us Righteousness as a gift. He has put His Spirit inside us and caused us to walk in His Statutes.

Its not really a choice... If you believe in your own righteousness you are lost. We all need Christ without exception.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#74
i'm some what confused because I believe imputed righteousness of Christ is Biblical but not in the context of how you explain it.

will you bear with me and I will explain how I read Martin Luther's sermon about it.

I believe he teaches that God's righteousness/ Christ's righteousness is given to us, imputed to us in order that we might grow and build out own proper righteousness.

I believe many people are in error if they think that Christ's imputed righteousness is the only type of righteousness they need.

I know you don't believe in original sin or total depravity but I believe you misunderstand those terms as well. I will admit you may have meet some who describe it as you describe it but its not what I've been taught or believe. I believe Adam's original sin does affect the world. causes people to die and that total depravity is just a term that says if you do not have God in your life you are unable to do anything.

you believe that no one is ever with out God or His light but i'll have to revisit that thought later because it has more implications than you may realize.

Christ's imputed righteousness is set against Adam's sin

Our proper righteousness is set against our own sin.

that is the message Luther teaches.

I know you do not believe in original sin and I would like to believe that if children are left to their own devices they will do what God wants them to do, but its not true

you see children are selfish. they don't need to be taught how to fight with another child. but they do need to be taught to share.

that is why the Law is a tutor for us until we come to the knowledge of Christ. we are outwardly discipline until the wisdom of God grows in our heart. it is not there naturally.

God does place in us a sense of right and wrong, just and unjust but even as children we try to find ways to increase our advantage, ways to get more than we are given.

the world teaches this "look out for number one" "climb the ladder" "buy this new car" etc.

I see a world lost and see people trying to follow the letter of the law without knowing the heart and Spirit and the need. not because they are doing what is right but because they are afraid of being punished for doing what is wrong.

i've got to tuck the kids in, but know this I'm trying my best to show you your misconceptions about Original sin, imputed righteousness and some of the other doctrines you protest so loudly against.

God help me because I'm not a theologian, just a stay at home mom who likes reading the BIble and listening to sermons.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#75
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tribesman; The righteousness of Christ was imputed to His people, thereby His people was made righteous in the person of their substitute and are therefore acceptable before God, even though they are not perfectly sinless (2Cor.5:21, Rom.5:19).

If one does not believe in salvation by this imputed righteousness, then one obviously believes in salvation by a righteousness of his own. It has to be one of them two and not both at the same time. They can never mix.
Oh Yes, they can mix, at least they are intertwined, there is a circle of righteousness. We cannot be made righteous without Christ,and when Christ makes us righteous we cannot live sinful lives. We cannot work our way to heaven with our own works, and we cannot get to heaven without works through Christ.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
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#77
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Oh Yes, they can mix, at least they are intertwined, there is a circle of righteousness. We cannot be made righteous without Christ,and when Christ makes us righteous we cannot live sinful lives. We cannot work our way to heaven with our own works, and we cannot get to heaven without works through Christ.
No, these two do not mix under any circumstance. There is a huge difference to be made between the work of Christ and the work of the believer. It is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between heaven and hell for the believer. Not the believer's work - any category. This should be needless to say.

Paul's gospel in a nutshell is all about position. It is all about justification IN CHRIST and not in man, to any part, to any degree. This justification is a work of God wholly outside of us, which is being reckoned to our account.

Now, since this is a life or death issue, let me ask you this, so I am fully sure I understand you correctly: what exactly do you mean with works through Christ? What are these works? Are you sure you have not confused works with the fruit that comes with salvation? Surely salvation brings fruit which results in works. Faith in the biblical sense is not mere belief but also includes the following of the One you believe in. But these works of faith are not the ground or cause of salvation. Only the work of Christ is.

There's also an individual reward for how well we have done the ministry and duties that are upon us, however this should NOT be confused with salvation. Salvation is something that no man ever can attain by his works, including the good works he has done after coming to faith. These works do not in any way, shape or form cause, maintain or finalize the ground for salvation. Absolutely not. If one yet insists it does, then one proves that one has not yet understood the gospel and is still going about to establish one's own righteousness. Being ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel. Works may be evidence of salvation only in so far as they are done "according to knowledge", but if they are done in ignorance they are on the contrary evidence of lostness, even if they are done in zeal for God (Rom.10:1-4).

I hope this is clear to all: God is not interested in our works as such, because He has already accepted the one work of Christ as sufficient for the salvation of His people. Now the works of faith that are done among God's people, which are far from being absolutely perfect, ought to be done only in gratitude and joy of the salvation they already have received. NOT as something they can hold up as proof of their right standing with God.
 
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Nov 26, 2011
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#78
My comments in red.

I think this is an interesting post because it really does appear you are thinking about these issues.




i'm some what confused because I believe imputed righteousness of Christ is Biblical but not in the context of how you explain it.

To reiterate very briefly the Bible says this...

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Let's really THINK here and use our REASONING ABILITY.

Romans 4 verse 5 clearly states that "faith is counted for righteousness." In other words God sees that an individual has faith and God counts that faith as righteousness. Read the passage again, it does not say a single thing about the righteousness of another being credited to the believer does it? Am I lying? Is not what I am saying true? Read the verse and THINK about what it ACTUALLY SAYS not what people imply it says.

Let's talk about the righteousness of Jesus for a moment. Why was Jesus righteous? Was it not because He did the right thing? I would assert that Jesus LOVED PERFECTLY and thus ALWAYS did the right thing and due to this it can be said that Jesus was righteous. Now let's THINK again. Can the conduct of Jesus be credited to someone else? Is it possible that the constitution of an individual by which they manifest right conduct be credited to another?

So when you say "God righteousness/Christ's righteousness" is given to you what does that mean? Does not it mean that the virtue of one is given to another? Does the transfer of virtue even make sense? PLEASE THINK IT THROUGH.

Again Rom 4:5 specifically states that "
his faith is counted for righteousness." Paul is clearly stating that there is a kind of faith that God counts as righteousness. Paul is not speaking of a transfer. Read it again please. What does it actually say? THINK.

Now look at Romans 4 verse 3. What does it say? It says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." So God counted Abraham's BELIEF as righteousness too.

Believed - G4100 - pisteuō
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.


Faith - G4102 - pistis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Now let's turn to Hebrews 11 and read what it says...

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.


Notice that faith was the DYNAMIC by which Abraham obeyed God and went out. Abraham was persuaded that what God said was true and Abraham entrusted his well being to God and thus Abraham submitted Himself to the will of God.

Here is what Hebrews says about Noah...

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Notice again that faith was the DYNAMIC that moved Noah TO DO what God told him to do and due to this he became a heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Now look at this passage...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Paul speaks of LIVING BY THE FAITH of Jesus and that by doing so he does not frustrate the grace of God because he knows that righteousness does not come by the law. Righteousness comes by faith.

Do any of these passages harmonise with the virtue of Jesus being credited to the believer? I don't see it at all.

Here is another passage about faith and righteousness.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Righteousness by faith and faith works by love. Do you see a transfer of the righteousness of Jesus to the believers account there? I sure don't. I see Paul teaching that righteousness is by faith and that faith works by love.

Therefore when John writes this...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.


Notice that John connects "loving one another" with "doing righteousness."
If faith works by love and it involves entrusting ourselves completely to God what will be the result?

1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.


Now if a sinner forsakes their sin and is reconciled to God through repentance and faith and is cleansed of all unrighteousness (the conscience purged) surely they will be walking by a faith that works by love. Yet the Bible teaches the "perfecting of the saints" which means they "are not perfect yet." It means they need to grow. Yet the HEART IS PURE (Act 15:9) they just don't know much. God does not reckon them righteous by how much they know but rather COUNTS THEIR FAITH AS RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM THEIR WORKS.

Read what I wrote ten times and THINK about it. Am I lying? Am I contradicting the Bible?

will you bear with me and I will explain how I read Martin Luther's sermon about it.

I believe he teaches that God's righteousness/ Christ's righteousness is given to us, imputed to us in order that we might grow and build out own proper righteousness. The problem is there is not a single passage in the entire Bible which states that the righteousness of Jesus is credited to the believer. Jesus didn't teach it nor did anyone else.

I believe many people are in error if they think that Christ's imputed righteousness is the only type of righteousness they need. They are in error if they believe the virtue of someone else can be transferred to another.

I know you don't believe in original sin or total depravity but I believe you misunderstand those terms as well. I will admit you may have meet some who describe it as you describe it but its not what I've been taught or believe. I believe Adam's original sin does affect the world. causes people to die and that total depravity is just a term that says if you do not have God in your life you are unable to do anything.

Adam's sin did this...

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

There is nothing in the Bible about Adam's sin corrupting the constitution of his descendents. Physical death is a result of being denied access to the Tree of Life. Adam was made mortal and not immortal.

you believe that no one is ever with out God or His light but i'll have to revisit that thought later because it has more implications than you may realize. Not necessarily, the Bible does warn about God giving people over to a reprobate mind.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


I think if that happens you have no hope.

No human being comes into the world without the light of God. All human beings are drawn by God but the light can be suppressed and God won't be mocked. The Bible does say he gives people over to a reprobate mind, and there is the parable of the talents where the unprofitable servant has his talents removed.

Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



Christ's imputed righteousness is set against Adam's sin The second Adam is definitely set against the first Adam but a transfer of righteousness has nothing to do with it.

Our proper righteousness is set against our own sin.

that is the message Luther teaches. Luther is in error. He may have rejected some of the ritualistic sacraments but he simply invented a new theology based upon the writings of Augustine.

I know you do not believe in original sin and I would like to believe that if children are left to their own devices they will do what God wants them to do, but its not true Original sin teaches that the decendents of Adam are imputed with the guilt of Adam as well as having their constitution ruined thus necessitating actual sin. Basically man is taught as being disabled from being able to exercise the virtuous choice. Thus actual sin is the symptom of a disease as opposed to a choice rooted in the exercise of the will.

you see children are selfish. they don't need to be taught how to fight with another child. but they do need to be taught to share. Of course children need to be taught. They are born blank slates subject to the natural passions. They have also been imbued with the light of conscience which only becomes apparent when the ability to reason has developed. Sin is always rooted in the free exercise of the will. I would say that the selfishness exhibited by a 3 year old is not "sin unto death" because the child has no true conception that it is wrong. The child is simply walking according to natural passions and has not yet gained the capacity to exercise moral choices. So while it may appear sinful it really isn't.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying a child is righteous either. I am simply saying they are neutral up until they can reason and thus exercise their will and make a choice.


that is why the Law is a tutor for us until we come to the knowledge of Christ. we are outwardly discipline until the wisdom of God grows in our heart. it is not there naturally. I agree although I would say that there is the light of conscience as well as the instruction of law. As far as the flesh is concerned, it is simply base passions like an animal. God is calling all people to live above their base passions and submit to Him. Sinners are brute beasts.

God does place in us a sense of right and wrong, just and unjust but even as children we try to find ways to increase our advantage, ways to get more than we are given.

the world teaches this "look out for number one" "climb the ladder" "buy this new car" etc.

I see a world lost and see people trying to follow the letter of the law without knowing the heart and Spirit and the need. not because they are doing what is right but because they are afraid of being punished for doing what is wrong. I agree. This is why righteousness is not by the law. One can yield to the law for many different reasons that have nothing to do with love. True righteousness is of the heart and is thus by a faith that works by love. Love fulfills the law.

i've got to tuck the kids in, but know this I'm trying my best to show you your misconceptions about Original sin, imputed righteousness and some of the other doctrines you protest so loudly against. Thankyou for your comments.

God help me because I'm not a theologian, just a stay at home mom who likes reading the BIble and listening to sermons. I am not a theologian either. In fact I do not even have a university education. I have always worked with my hands. I am a simple peasant who loves God and the words He has given us. I also love to dig into things to find answers.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#79
a circle of righteousness.
the Gospel is a circle of righteousness.
*whew*
okay.
writing this down also.

i need to cease all known sin and not have any head knowledge.

i want to be saved, so RedTent how does the circle of righteousness save me?
please help.

i'm getting confused.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#80
what exactly do you mean with works through Christ? What are these works?
i wondered that also.

I hope this is clear to all: God is not interested in our works as such, because He has already accepted the one work of Christ as sufficient for the salvation of His people. Now the works of faith that are done among God's people, which are far from being absolutely perfect, ought to be done only in gratitude and joy of the salvation they already have received. NOT as something they can hold up as proof of their right standing with God.
hmmm....this is what i had thought as well.
and that those who are saved will walk in the good works God prepared beforehand that we should walk in.

but there is a circle of righteousness i wasn't aware of.

sigh.
this is hard.