Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

Seriously, what parish did you attend where they taught you to worship statues because honestly I'd like to report them to the U.S. Conference of Bishops. Catholics don't worship statues. We do not believe the statue has any power. We worship the Trinity and that's all. Anything else is a lie.

Learning about the past...and yet not caring about the history of the Christian Church. My goodness if you can be deceived into thinking the Catholic Church took on Babylon practices be careful because you might then be deceived by those that say Christianity took on Egyptian practices because Mary and Jesus look a lot like Isis and Horus.

Balance your research!!

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

blue_ladybug said:

So in the example I gave if a person were on an island where Jesus was unknown to that person are you saying that person can't be saved? This would be the extreme example of "invincible ignorance" but they don't all have to be this extreme. I'm just trying to make a point and see where you're coming from.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

Jackson123 said:

I have already provided quotes from the early Church councils that describe the Eucharist "as the most necessary viaticum", the body of Christ", and "unbloody worship...partaking in the real flesh of our Lord". These were not just quotes from individuals, but from the universal Church.

Can you do me the same courtesy and provide evidence where the early Christian Church DID NOT believe in the Real Presence, the Real Flesh of Jesus in the Eucharist?

-Ernie-

Jackson123 · Jan 1, 2018

Ernie07 said:

Hello everyone,

I will try to respond the best I can to all of the responses directed toward me, but I wanted to make an overarching point. All of you are very consistent in your disbelief in the Catholic Church and I truly commend you for your passion as I believe it is based on your love of Jesus and His Word. Although we disagree on an awful lot I think we can agree on loving Jesus and His Word!!

What I've been reading over and over is, in essence, "the Catholic Church is wrong because of what the Bible says...per my interpretation". And that's OK. There is nothing wrong with admitting the Bible needs to be interpreted (if not why so many varying versions of truth?). When it does get wrong is when anyone claims to be interpreting the Bible correctly when they're not. You would put the Catholic Church under the category of wrong while the Catholic Church would say that you're wrong. So whose interpretation is correct...yours or the Catholic Church? Let's do a quick intellectual comparison.

If the Catholic Church is correct it has evidence of being correct from the very early Christian Church. I can name individuals in every century where I believe like they believe. I can turn to church council documents in most every century (there weren't councils in every century) and find evidence that I believe as they believe. Jesus has truly protected this Church in the sense of unity as there is an unbroken chain of beliefs in all centuries. I also can name heretics in most every century...Joahannites, Hippolytus of Rome, Marcion of Pontus, Theodotus and so many others including some church leaders like Paul of Samosata and Bishop Polycrates who did not believe as I believe and were excommunicated by the Church. Heresies were brought out into the light and dealt with just as the truth was.

If you are all correct you have no evidence of being correct in the early Christian Church. You can name no individuals that believed as you believe in the first 1300 years of the Church. You can turn to no church documents or any evidence at all that shows you believing as they believe. Not a shred of proof that anyone...not one person believed as you believe in the first 1300 years. It's as if your belief system was just made up one day. Your belief system has resulted in the opposite of what Jesus prayed for in terms of unity as there is massive disunity among non-Catholics themselves yet alone the disunity caused by the splitting away from the Catholic Church as evidenced by the multitude of Christian denominations.

For your belief system to be true you would have to admit that there is more evidence of heresy (Catholic beliefs) than truth (your beliefs) in Jesus' Church. More evidence of idolatry than true worship. More evidence of hate than love. That darkness completely overshadowed the light for centuries. To say that's not the case is to be completely intellectually dishonest or simply blinded. And to say that paints Christ and the Church He said He would build and protect in an awful light.

Stop reading hate sites and balance your research. It's honestly not that hard and won't take a long time. I won't include sites out of respect, but if you desire some Catholic sites to balance your research I can provide them. Worst case is you read it and still decide we're wrong. At least you won't hate what you don't understand. I was where you are.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

do you agree with Jesuit oath?

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

Jackson123 said:

I believe you, but what does that have to do with the Eucharist? You are using human intellect to try and explain God. You questioning this mystery is like me saying Jesus didn't really walk through the upper room door because I can't make that happen now. Have you ever seen anyone walk through a door that could eat fish? Me neither, but I believe it happened because God can do all and I only know a small speck compared to God.

-Ernie-

Jackson123 · Jan 1, 2018

garee said:

They followed the same as the first century the time of reformation as a law of the father(law of men). Giving letters of approval from the high priest (Pope). walking by sight. the commandment of men.. murder the perceived competition (out of sight out of mind)

Because sola scriptura, the revealed will of God not seen, called all things written in the law and prophets... has no room among the “law of the fathers” ...the oral traditions as commandments of men . The Catholic must defend those oral traditions (walking by sight) .as in out of mind out of sight (kill the perceived competition)

Paul before he became a member of the Nazarene sect ,the first sect mentioned on this side of the cross .he served a form of Godliness but denied the authority of grace as a false zeal for knowing God unseen. The Catholic followed the same kind of "law of the fathers" serving different men as fathers.(as that seen) The Jew used the name Abraham while the Catholic chose the word Peter to usurp the authority of our one Father in heaven (not seen)

I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom (the Pope) also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. Act 22:3-5

Those who refuse to walk by faith the unseen called those who did walk by faith the unseen heretics those who teach opinions and not what they considered law (of the fathers)having it in respect to men seen .

They shot themselves in the foot exposing their real enemy...... all things written in the law and the prophets (soal scriptura) it is the bottom line the line of reasoning by Him unseen

Act 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Neither "can" they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which “they” call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: (sola scriptura) Act 24:13

Today they are still trying to prove the word of God is heresy .The word of God as the fianl authority in matter of faith (the unseen) is still proving the blasphemes of men that try and usurp the authority of all things written in the law and the prophets

Nothing changes nothing.

That sad brother, they Lie to over catholic brother and sister, It is satanic. Unfortunatelly our catholic brother do not care of they own salvation. Is Jesus approve this oath? It is a big deal question.

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

valiant said:

Yes!! You get it! Oddly enough you misunderstand my mixing up when actually you have stated exactly what I have been trying to convey in this thread. Just because the early Christian Church started to call itself the RCC doesn't mean it was called that or even thought of that during the times prior to 800 A.D.

So that "universal church" as you call it, what did they believe? You know enough to say how they were organized so tell me what they believed, for surely you can't be saying that they all believed different things. Jesus said He would build His Church. He didn't say churches. He said He would protect His Church. Not churches. And He prayed for unity. So what did they believe?

Related to the councils you speak of would you say Nicaea and Constantinople (the first 2 ecumenical councils) were called the universal church you speak of? If not, then what councils are you referring to? If so, then why don't you believe what they say?

Show me evidence of the oneness in faith and truth in the early Christian Church that is opposed to the Catholic faith and I'll stop being a Catholic. It's not about me and my interpretation, but about Jesus and being a part of His Church. Not his "church" of believers, but of His Church that He said He would build and protect.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

jaybird88 · Jan 1, 2018

Ernie07 said:

Seriously, what parish did you attend where they taught you to worship statues because honestly I'd like to report them to the U.S. Conference of Bishops. Catholics don't worship statues. We do not believe the statue has any power. We worship the Trinity and that's all. Anything else is a lie.

Learning about the past...and yet not caring about the history of the Christian Church. My goodness if you can be deceived into thinking the Catholic Church took on Babylon practices be careful because you might then be deceived by those that say Christianity took on Egyptian practices because Mary and Jesus look a lot like Isis and Horus.

Balance your research!!

-Ernie-

Ernie do you have any Catholics that came from non Catholic churches?

Jackson123 · Jan 1, 2018

Ernie07 said:

My brother, the earliest Christian communion documented by Matthew in matt 26

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
It say Jesus take a bread, so Jesus no torn his own flesh

Jesus take a cup. What is in the cup brother?
Verse 29 give a clue what is in the Cup.

when you do communion, did you Eat meat, did you ever test wafer to the laboratorium change to meat?

do not believe every spirit brother, test It, bring to lab.

Jackson123 · Jan 1, 2018

Ernie07 said:

I believe you, but what does that have to do with the Eucharist? You are using human intellect to try and explain God. You questioning this mystery is like me saying Jesus didn't really walk through the upper room door because I can't make that happen now. Have you ever seen anyone walk through a door that could eat fish? Me neither, but I believe it happened because God can do all and I only know a small speck compared to God.

-Ernie-

Brother Ernie, don't you see the similarity?

Jackson123 · Jan 1, 2018

garee said:

Much of it has to do with redefining words which does violate the warning in Deuteronomy 4:3 not to add others meanings to a word .(singular) Seeing changinf one, word jot or title can change the authors intent.

Take the phrase “private revelation”. The Catholics will say (as must according to the law of their fathers) every other private interpretation other that that of their own private is not of God and therefore in doing so usurp the authority according to the same spirit of faith(Christ’s) as it is written

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20

By looking at the scripture the meaning is clear.. It represent the interpretation of men that they offer as an opinion of
what God’s interpretation, the Bible teaches us . Its how we seek after his approval .He does the teaching and bring to mind that which he has taught us.

Like the apostate Jew they simply turn that upside down in order to take away the understanding of God..in the end making the faith of Christ, in God to no effect.
o
Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

They forget there are three fingers pointed back at the own private interpretation as private revelations from men .

The word of God offers no living authority to them . They must pretend they are receiving new revelations from God as their own source of living faith.. having the faith of Christ in respect to sinful men and the queen of heaven rather that Christ alone.

They are informed as a law of thier fathers even if the private revelation are proven false that the queen Mother that they call Mary will be happy they are keeping the air way open to give them the illusion of a living faith. Saints are not a source of faith (the unseen)

In other words truth becomes true when you believe it to be even if it is not. Just keep the air ways opend by refusing to obey the not to add to the now complete/perfect word of God. It is sealed up til the end of time... with no laws missing by which we could know him not seen more adequately

Walk by faith the unseen and avoid the lying signs and wonders.

Satan is still allowed to bring them .God is still sending a strong delusion to those who go above that which is written.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:2Th 2:9

Because of our Holy Mother Asked It?

Who is Holy mother?

If you believe and It should be proven false

so Holy mother may false?

Than who is Holy mother?

Magenta · Jan 1, 2018

Ernie07 said:

You are blind to your own blatant contradictions. We believe the Bible! Your post tells us that you do not accept the Bible as evidence of the early Christian church. We believe Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

We pray to God the Father as Jesus instructed, and as the apostles did,
not as your popes tell you to pray to dead people, including Mary.

God several times throughout Scripture says He will not share His glory,
while Catholics glorify, venerate, and adore Mary. We glorify Christ, not Mary.

Jesus did not once in Scripture address Mary as His mother, but Catholics call her the mother of humanity, and as if that were not enough, the queen of heaven and the second Eve.

Jesus said that anyone who did the will of God was His mother, His brother, His sister. Jesus never elevated Mary above others, but Catholics feel a need to not just elevate Mary above others, but they put her on a par with Jesus in terms of His sinlessness, (do you really think that she needed to be sinless so that Jesus Christ could be sinless?). Scripture teaches that all fall short of the glory of God. Catholics teach otherwise.

They are forced by so-called infallible papal decree to accept the Marian dogmas of her bodily assumption and immaculate conception, neither of which have any basis whatsoever in Scripture. Jesus told us to pray to our Father in heaven, yet they pray to Mary, because their popes tell them to despite what Jesus explicitly instructed.

Then people like you, Ernie, come here nd LIE to us
and say you do not pray to Mary! You do not fool us.

Scripture clearly states that there is one intercessor between God and man, yet their popes, bishops, priests, parishioners etc, will tell you to pray to Mary, and other dead people, for intercession. They fault those who do as Jesus suggested, while they disobey Him to follow someone else instead.

We see nothing in Scripture to endorse her bodily assumption, her perpetual virginity (Jesus had siblings after all, two of whom have books in the Bible!), her immaculate conception. We see no need to pray to her, or any ability on her part, as dead as she is believed to be, to intercede on our behalf against the explicit words of Jesus in Scripture.

Within Catholicism, there is a drive to define a new Marian dogma in which Catholics, as a matter of faith, would be obliged to accept: 1) Mary participates in redemption with Jesus Christ; 2) grace is granted by Jesus only through the intercession of Mary; and 3) all prayers from the faithful must flow through Mary, who brings them to the attention of her Son.

Scripture also tells us not to call anyone Father but God,
while they call many men "father" and blindly follow them.

RCC adherents believe that a fallible man whom Jesus referred to as Satan is the Rock that Jesus is building His Church on, not a confession of faith divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, despite a plethora of Scriptures that attest to the fact that God is the sole Rock of our salvation.

The RCC teaches purgatory, and many other things neither the apostles nor Jesus ever taught. For instance, they claim priests must be celibate, when they were not in the early church. Another example would be infant baptism, nowhere promoted in Scripture, since one is to repent and believe before being baptized.

The RCC burned people at the stake for daring to read the Bible, which is what Scripture tells us to do. Despite all this, and more, the Catholic Church considers herself the only valid expression of the community of God.

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

Angela53510 said:

Hi Angela,

Thanks for your honesty. God bless you as you teach and instruct your flock as a pastor! And I pray that your RA may be healed and you to be pain-free as I've heard it can be quite painful.

With all due respect many of the questions I'm asking are just rationality questions without needing to research. I just think unfortunately hate can be so blinding. Jesus even spoke about it and dealt with it in the cities that didn't believe and then He couldn't perform miracles. It wasn't about His lacking, but in their lacking...in faith in Him. Hate can be such a barrier.

Regarding your thoughts on early church fathers I couldn't agree more!! The whole "my interpretation is better than yours" game I described in my faith journey post can be used not only for Bible verses but for early church father quotes as well. Sometimes it sounds like they believe in one thing and then they say something else that seems to contradict what they earlier said. That is why I use church councils. They are not the voice of an individual but rather of the collective body. Jesus never said He would protect an individual (except for Peter) but he did say He would protect his Church and the councils spoke for the Church. This is such an important point.

As it relates to the apocrypha (Deuterocanonical to be accurate) you are using your own personal judgement and opinion. Your views on these 7 books would have had you labeled a heretic in say 700 A.D. The Bible of the Church, the Latin Vulgate, was comprised of 73 books. Please provide any evidence that this isn't the case. For you to be right then the Christian Church had to have been wrong for over 1000 years. How can you say Jesus kept His promise to protect His Church if they got the very Word of God wrong for 1000 years?

God bless!

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

Jackson123 said:

Hi Jackson,

My point is that ANY teaching is up for interpretation. That is why we have court rooms to decide who is interpreting our laws correctly. The same for the Bible. You need someone or some group to be that final interpreter and Jesus said that that final authority would be His Church. And that Church can't have multiple versions of the truth. Imagine the chaos in our society if laws would be random with multiple versions of the truth? That is why precedent is so important...for unity, consistency and common understanding. The human version can be flawed, but Jesus' version is perfect. Bottom line is that your version is not perfect, neither is mine or anyone else's. Jesus didn't protect us individually. Rather, He protected His Church.

Jesus is the cornerstone of His Church and the ultimate leader. He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom as His representative knowing He would soon be ascending. Read Isaiah 22:22 to understand the reference Jesus was making regarding keys as it is the only 2 places in the Bible where the word "keys" are used. Jesus is the master who has given authority to His servant, Peter in this case. As Master, Jesus has given Peter authority which is well within His right as Master. It is all very biblical, but just not aligned with your interpretation.

I hope this helps.

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Who were the "real Christians" then and what did they believe? I'm not asking you to give me your beliefs and transpose on them. I'm asking for historical proof of what they believed. I say they believed in the Eucharist, infant baptism, Mary ever-virgin and Mother of God...and I can prove it.

Please prove to me the opposite...that there was the "real Church" that disbelieved these things.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

Jackson123 said:

We are all God's children regardless of faith. We have all been created by God and He hopes for the salvation of all of His children. Sadly, that will likely not happen. Being a child of God and being part of Jesus' Church unfortunately doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. Jesus said that His believers would be known based on their love for each other so I agree with your last sentence.

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

Jackson123 said:

To be honest, I haven't given this topic much thought, but I would have to say yes. In what form and when exactly that will happen we don't know just as we don't know when Jesus will return. I'm sure you have your interpretation of this passage.

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

valiant said:

Yes! Thank you! So you agree that the council of Nicaea met as Jesus' Church? Do you abide by the decrees they all agreed on? If not, why?

Thanks.

-Ernie-

Ernie07 · Jan 1, 2018

Jackson123 said:

No.............(had to get 10 characters!!)

tourist · Jan 1, 2018

Ernie07 said:

OK........

Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?

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