Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?
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The Bible says that God wants all people to repent,and come to the knowledge of the truth,and be saved,and is the Savior of all men.
God gave us a choice because God's kingdom is based on true love,not robotic love,which many are called,but few are chosen,so God does the calling,and choosing,on earth.
All works were already finished from the foundation of the world,the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,and the prophets blood was shed from the foundation of the world.
So they cannot say that the saints being predestined to salvation,God chose who would be saved,for it means that God had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as the saints having salvation from the foundation of the world,and that is to whoever wants that salvation,and all works were finished from the foundation of the world,the Lamb slain,God manifest in the flesh,prophets blood shed,salvation,although they were all future events.
God also gives warnings that people can fall away,and there is no need for warnings,if it could not possibly happen to someone.
If God chose in the beginning who would be saved,then all things that the people that He chose,had to do,would be coming from God,and not from them chose,taking away any choice on the person's part,for it would all come from God,and they would follow God automatically.
God says for us to love Him,but if it comes from God,and not from us,then we do not truly love God,but have no choice but to say it,and why would God tell us to love Him,when we would say it automatically.
God's kingdom would not be true love.
God said have faith,but if it comes from God,and not us,we truly do not have faith,and why would God tell us to have faith,if we will do it anyway.
God commands all people to repent,but if it comes from God,they truly did not repent,and why would God command to repent,when the people that God chose would do it automatically,and those that were not chose,cannot repent anyway,for it would not make a difference,and why would God command all people to repent.
And anything else like that.
If God chose in the beginning,it would all come from Him,and not from us,not being able to have any choice in the matter,but doing it automatically,like a good programmed robot.
God says to love Him,but will they say it comes from God,or comes from us,and if it comes from us,then we have a choice in the matter of our salvation.
God says repent,but will they say it comes from God,or comes from us,and if they say,it comes from us,then we have a choice in the matter of salvation.
God says believe,but will they say it comes from God,or it comes from us,and if they say,it comes from us,then we have a choice in the matter of salvation.
God says have faith,but will they say it comes from God,or it comes from us,and if they say,it comes from us,then we have a choice in the matter of salvation.
So is there anything that comes from us,and not God,or does it all comes from God,taking away any choice on our part,but we will do all things automatically,and if they say there is anything on our part,then we have a choice in the matter of salvation,and if they say it all comes from God,and we make no choice,but will do all things automatically,then all I have to say is,Beep Beep,Bleep.
People also have to consider if God chose us in the beginning,there would be no hypocrisy,for nobody would come to God,unless they were chosen,and the ones who were not chosen would not come,but given a choice some people can come,but be hypocritical,which does not work if God chose who would be saved in the beginning,fore there wold be no hypocrisy,for you would do all things automatically,having no fault.
The fact that people can sin if they desire,after they are saved,testifies we have a choice concerning our salvation.
God gave us a choice because God's kingdom is based on true love,not robotic love,which many are called,but few are chosen,so God does the calling,and choosing,on earth.
All works were already finished from the foundation of the world,the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,and the prophets blood was shed from the foundation of the world.
So they cannot say that the saints being predestined to salvation,God chose who would be saved,for it means that God had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as the saints having salvation from the foundation of the world,and that is to whoever wants that salvation,and all works were finished from the foundation of the world,the Lamb slain,God manifest in the flesh,prophets blood shed,salvation,although they were all future events.
God also gives warnings that people can fall away,and there is no need for warnings,if it could not possibly happen to someone.
If God chose in the beginning who would be saved,then all things that the people that He chose,had to do,would be coming from God,and not from them chose,taking away any choice on the person's part,for it would all come from God,and they would follow God automatically.
God says for us to love Him,but if it comes from God,and not from us,then we do not truly love God,but have no choice but to say it,and why would God tell us to love Him,when we would say it automatically.
God's kingdom would not be true love.
God said have faith,but if it comes from God,and not us,we truly do not have faith,and why would God tell us to have faith,if we will do it anyway.
God commands all people to repent,but if it comes from God,they truly did not repent,and why would God command to repent,when the people that God chose would do it automatically,and those that were not chose,cannot repent anyway,for it would not make a difference,and why would God command all people to repent.
And anything else like that.
If God chose in the beginning,it would all come from Him,and not from us,not being able to have any choice in the matter,but doing it automatically,like a good programmed robot.
God says to love Him,but will they say it comes from God,or comes from us,and if it comes from us,then we have a choice in the matter of our salvation.
God says repent,but will they say it comes from God,or comes from us,and if they say,it comes from us,then we have a choice in the matter of salvation.
God says believe,but will they say it comes from God,or it comes from us,and if they say,it comes from us,then we have a choice in the matter of salvation.
God says have faith,but will they say it comes from God,or it comes from us,and if they say,it comes from us,then we have a choice in the matter of salvation.
So is there anything that comes from us,and not God,or does it all comes from God,taking away any choice on our part,but we will do all things automatically,and if they say there is anything on our part,then we have a choice in the matter of salvation,and if they say it all comes from God,and we make no choice,but will do all things automatically,then all I have to say is,Beep Beep,Bleep.
People also have to consider if God chose us in the beginning,there would be no hypocrisy,for nobody would come to God,unless they were chosen,and the ones who were not chosen would not come,but given a choice some people can come,but be hypocritical,which does not work if God chose who would be saved in the beginning,fore there wold be no hypocrisy,for you would do all things automatically,having no fault.
The fact that people can sin if they desire,after they are saved,testifies we have a choice concerning our salvation.
There is a logical contradiction here from people who claim eternal security is unconditional.
If eternal security was completely unconditional, outside our own will, or faith or choice, then there is no point arguing about it because the listeners have no choice, they are literally either chosen and kept or lost and eternally damned.
As soon as you believe there is value to argue, witness, preach, share, encourage, have a open free relationship you admit by your very actions choice is involved. And the whole reason why I share, argue, stay positive, talk about love, because my whole experience of life and relationships are based on choices. So I truly am following what I believe and why I oppose the counter argument, is because it is destructive in denying real behaviour has value.
Worse still if I stand for this value, stand for a good relationship with Jesus, walking in faithfullness to love and truth, I must be unsaved and demon possessed. To be frank, this argument illustrates why it is so important to talk about love being dynamic, two ways, we are brought into Gods confidence, He has bared His heart to us, and shown us what He really cares about. Wow.
I never earnt this, it is not because of what I am or have done, it is the nature of the love of God.
Now if you are happy to deny your own premise, to attack people who are following Jesus and His word and call them the enemy, then this testifies how little you know of the cross and what love is and how forgiveness works. Love transforms us, remakes us, purchases and turns us around. Praise the Lord, Hallelujah.
If eternal security was completely unconditional, outside our own will, or faith or choice, then there is no point arguing about it because the listeners have no choice, they are literally either chosen and kept or lost and eternally damned.
As soon as you believe there is value to argue, witness, preach, share, encourage, have a open free relationship you admit by your very actions choice is involved. And the whole reason why I share, argue, stay positive, talk about love, because my whole experience of life and relationships are based on choices. So I truly am following what I believe and why I oppose the counter argument, is because it is destructive in denying real behaviour has value.
Worse still if I stand for this value, stand for a good relationship with Jesus, walking in faithfullness to love and truth, I must be unsaved and demon possessed. To be frank, this argument illustrates why it is so important to talk about love being dynamic, two ways, we are brought into Gods confidence, He has bared His heart to us, and shown us what He really cares about. Wow.
I never earnt this, it is not because of what I am or have done, it is the nature of the love of God.
Now if you are happy to deny your own premise, to attack people who are following Jesus and His word and call them the enemy, then this testifies how little you know of the cross and what love is and how forgiveness works. Love transforms us, remakes us, purchases and turns us around. Praise the Lord, Hallelujah.
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Great scripture!
It appears there are good and bad sacrifices depending on the purpose of the particular sacrifice being done.
Exodus 22:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "He who sacrifices to any god, other than to the LORD alone, shall be utterly destroyed.
Here is one about the sacrifice of joy and thanksgiving! ( that sounds like those spiritual sacrifices 1 Peter 2:5 was talking about! - we are His dwelling place now)
Psalm 27:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.
Psalm 107:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Let them also offer sacrifices of thanksgiving, And tell of His works with joyful singing.
It looks like some sacrifices trying to appease God are not accepted by Him.
Jeremiah 6:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.
This one here is especially bad for those that have their sacrifices to other things then to God Himself and those that depend on their own works.
Jeremiah 1:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will pronounce My judgments on them concerning all their wickedness, whereby they have forsaken Me and have offered sacrifices to other gods, and worshiped the works of their own hands.
It appears there are good and bad sacrifices depending on the purpose of the particular sacrifice being done.
Exodus 22:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "He who sacrifices to any god, other than to the LORD alone, shall be utterly destroyed.
Here is one about the sacrifice of joy and thanksgiving! ( that sounds like those spiritual sacrifices 1 Peter 2:5 was talking about! - we are His dwelling place now)
Psalm 27:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.
Psalm 107:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Let them also offer sacrifices of thanksgiving, And tell of His works with joyful singing.
It looks like some sacrifices trying to appease God are not accepted by Him.
Jeremiah 6:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.
This one here is especially bad for those that have their sacrifices to other things then to God Himself and those that depend on their own works.
Jeremiah 1:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will pronounce My judgments on them concerning all their wickedness, whereby they have forsaken Me and have offered sacrifices to other gods, and worshiped the works of their own hands.
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S
This is not about Calvinism. You don't have to be a Calvinist to believe salvation is permanent and can't be lost. I don't believe election is understood correctly by many people, I don't understand it fully, but I know God doesn't choose some for heaven and some for hell.
Eternal security is truth because it's God that performs the transformation in us. It is the "circumcision made without hands" that is performed by the Holy Spirit and cannot be reversed. We have been placed "in Christ", and we will live as long as He does.
Eternal security is truth because it's God that performs the transformation in us. It is the "circumcision made without hands" that is performed by the Holy Spirit and cannot be reversed. We have been placed "in Christ", and we will live as long as He does.
Out of context, totally! Wrong covenant and wrong application!
I am reading Joshua right now. It is the story of a people, "who did right in their own eyes." It is not talking about salvation of individual believers, but of a people who were chosen AS A PEOPLE by God, and chose to go their own ways. I never said we don't have choices about how to live. That would be silly.
But as far as soteriology is concerned, it God who calls, justifies, sanctifies and glorifies us. As for unbelievers, which is what the Hebrews were in Israel during the time of the judges, God did tell them through the judges to follow him, not the surrounding nations and their gods. In fact, none of this would have happened if they had destroyed the surrounding nations like they were told too. So they were not saved by faith, because they did not believe in God. if they had believed, they would have been saved, and the Bible would tell a different story.
But fortunately for us, even after all those total failures by the Hebrew people, God sent his promised Son, who was the only one who lived a sinless life. And then died on the cross! It doesn't get much better than that.
I am reading Joshua right now. It is the story of a people, "who did right in their own eyes." It is not talking about salvation of individual believers, but of a people who were chosen AS A PEOPLE by God, and chose to go their own ways. I never said we don't have choices about how to live. That would be silly.
But as far as soteriology is concerned, it God who calls, justifies, sanctifies and glorifies us. As for unbelievers, which is what the Hebrews were in Israel during the time of the judges, God did tell them through the judges to follow him, not the surrounding nations and their gods. In fact, none of this would have happened if they had destroyed the surrounding nations like they were told too. So they were not saved by faith, because they did not believe in God. if they had believed, they would have been saved, and the Bible would tell a different story.
But fortunately for us, even after all those total failures by the Hebrew people, God sent his promised Son, who was the only one who lived a sinless life. And then died on the cross! It doesn't get much better than that.
E
Sadly I think they need someone to judge, Someone to make them feel better, Because if they were left to their lives and scripture with nothing else to compare themselves to. They would be horrified as to how sinful they really are.
Slamming other people allows them to ignore their sin life, so they can feel worthy.
E
Good choice, I put him on ignore long ago because of all the false accusations. But that does not mean they won't keep trying. Peace 
I just love when the people who say they ignore others based on false accusations are the biggest instigators of false accusing of the brethren in the room.
Of course, it will not help. People need to show those who may read what you preach is not from Gods word. So yes, We will still press on.. Whether you are there to try to counter what we say does not matter, Just makes it easier on us.
E
lol.. Please tell me you are not serious.
Thanks though, I needed a good laugh..
You all yell saying I bear false witness saying you try to earn salvation, Then here you just proved me right, If obedience is mandatory, Then salvation is an earned reward for being obedient, Not a gift of God via grace.
Thanks, You just proved me right..
EXACTLY!!
Paul was chosen. But he did not chose himself. The interesting point, is that not only did he not chose himself, but as a Pharisee persecuting Christians, he thought he was both chosen, but doing God's will. So was Paul saved when he was out searching for Christians to take to the authorities so they could hand them over to the Romans to be killed??
Well, of course not! He thought he was obeying God, but he did not know God. He did not know God because he was not saved!
So how did he get saved. He didn't say a sinner's prayer, nor did he believe in Jesus? Well, Jesus stopped him dead in his tracks on the road to Damascus.
God chose him. Which is what we are all saying. Of course, God knew he was the right person - that he would share the gospel in spite of personal pain, that he would establish churches, and lead them.He would mentor and disciple them. And write a good part of the NT.
I'm glad God chose Paul. And he is a perfect example of someone that did not believe, but God chose him, in spite of his sin and evil. God is omniscient. He knew Paul would follow him, and serve him. God knows the end from the beginning, and who will follow him till the end.
No one that I know that believes in eternal security, thinks it gives you a free pass to sin like the devil. That is a different belief, called antinominanism. Meaning "against the law." OR more properly, do whatever you will.
Eternal security rests totally in Christ, and those of us who believe, are so grateful that God chose us, and he is sanctifing us, and making us more like him. What a wonderful God we serve.
Grace is God's gift to sinners.
What do the obedient need grace for?
Christ died for the ungodly...the just (Jesus) for the unjust (us).
You posted about the obedience OF FAITH, and you posted that the work of God is to BELIEVE IN JESUS, yet you fail to believe the very scriptures you posted! It's astounding!
I'm with you, except to add...it gets better in that He rose from the grave!
Oh, and so shall we...because He lives, we shall live also.
Oh, and He's coming again. And we have eternal life with Him in His Kingdom which has no end. And He's going to create a new heavens and a new earth. And there'll be no more tears or pain or separation, only joy forevermore!
But yeah...it doesn't get any better than that, lol.
(But I know you know that, I'm just having fun with you.)
God bless you, Angela, sister and friend!
Praise the Lord! \/
What do the obedient need grace for?
Christ died for the ungodly...the just (Jesus) for the unjust (us).
You posted about the obedience OF FAITH, and you posted that the work of God is to BELIEVE IN JESUS, yet you fail to believe the very scriptures you posted! It's astounding!
I'm with you, except to add...it gets better in that He rose from the grave!
Oh, and so shall we...because He lives, we shall live also.
Oh, and He's coming again. And we have eternal life with Him in His Kingdom which has no end. And He's going to create a new heavens and a new earth. And there'll be no more tears or pain or separation, only joy forevermore!
But yeah...it doesn't get any better than that, lol.
(But I know you know that, I'm just having fun with you.)
God bless you, Angela, sister and friend!
Praise the Lord! \
/
Grace is God's gift to sinners.
What do the obedient need grace for?
Christ died for the ungodly...the just (Jesus) for the unjust (us).
You posted about the obedience OF FAITH, and you posted that the work of God is to BELIEVE IN JESUS, yet you fail to believe the very scriptures you posted! It's astounding!
What do the obedient need grace for?
Christ died for the ungodly...the just (Jesus) for the unjust (us).
You posted about the obedience OF FAITH, and you posted that the work of God is to BELIEVE IN JESUS, yet you fail to believe the very scriptures you posted! It's astounding!
It's astounding that you and others are so blinded by the notion that any effort is a work of law. Satan really has snookered folks to make them think that grace and obedience are mutually exclusive.
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Actually grace believers say the exact opposite that no one does any works because of grace. All the work being done is by grace if it originates from the Lord on the inside of us.
There is a work of the flesh and a work of the Spirit. These are not the same thing altho outwardly they may "look" the same. The works that we do can originate from the flesh or from the spirit.
Paul talks about the grace of God 174x times in his epistles.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Paul said that it was not himself that was working - but the grace of God within him.
1 Corinthians 15:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
There is a work of the flesh and a work of the Spirit. These are not the same thing altho outwardly they may "look" the same. The works that we do can originate from the flesh or from the spirit.
Paul talks about the grace of God 174x times in his epistles.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Paul said that it was not himself that was working - but the grace of God within him.
1 Corinthians 15:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
Here is a quote from an author that illustrates the truth of "doing works in the flesh". FreeNChrist had posted this in another thread and it addresses this truth beautifully.
Quote:
You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.
The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose. The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!
The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).
We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.
.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God. “Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."
Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ
"Unless the Lord builds the house - they labor in vain that build it."
Quote:
You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.
The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose. The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!
The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).
We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.
.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God. “Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."
Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ
"Unless the Lord builds the house - they labor in vain that build it."
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