Is fellowship possible between Calvinists and Arminians?

eternally-gratefull · Jan 4, 2013

yep this is you. You will not look at the arguments and respond to them. you just make attacks. Not just to me, but everyone who is against you;. read these threads, its all over the place.

If you are trying to earn your salvation (which it is obvious to everyone but those like you you are) you are not teaching the correct gospel. I will leave the rest up to you to figure out.

rauleetoe · Jan 4, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

No one is advocating works! ill say it spanish..maybe you understand that, los hechos,las obras no salven..funny how you cry false witness on me, but do not see your own hypocrisy of accusing me of being braimwashed, of my pastor teaching me to hate calvinists,etc..and thinking you can see whats in my heart to see what i believe, and calling me a liar...i did not know you could read minds EG..btw that was a sarcastic jab at you since you think you knpw who is going to heaven and who is going to.hell..stop your hypocrisy.

zone · Jan 4, 2013

rauleetoe said:

hi rauleetoe

only problem quoting OT faithful to us today is this:

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

One in Christ
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,c but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God byd the Spirit.

"remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

^ pretty scary^
and very much a Monergistic Plan.

we can try to get synergistic here:

"And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,c but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God"

but Paul pretty much dispensed with that already:

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

so, now having been saved, we are able to say "as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!" < cuz He brought us near (drew, dragged, persuaded) and revealed Himself to us.

rauleetoe · Jan 4, 2013

tribesman said:

Huh...sounds like you are reading this with reform glasses..just like world, does mean.world in 1john2:2?

rauleetoe · Jan 4, 2013

zone said:

hi rauleetoe

only problem quoting OT faithful to us today is this:

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

One in Christ
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,c but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God byd the Spirit.

"remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

^ pretty scary^
and very much a Monergistic Plan.

we can try to get synergistic here:

"And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,c but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God"

but Paul pretty much dispensed with that already:

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

so, now having been saved, we are able to say "as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!" < cuz He brought us near (drew, dragged, persuaded) and revealed Himself to us.

Paul also said in 1thessalonians 4:3, that this is God's will for us..no its not seeking to be right through the law, but holiness is God's will for all believers, for you..for the calvinost, heck.even for eternall gratefull if he gets the faith to believe this is possible, with God of course..all things are possible..

zone · Jan 4, 2013

rauleetoe said:

absolutely it is His will that we put off the old man, continue in the faith.

but the old man was at war with God, hating Him, hiding from Him....even as He was reconciling us to Him, without our permission i'll dare to say

so if we narrow this down, we are talking about believers. not unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

as Gramps has said, and i agree...this was once me.
if i had been able to accept the things of God, i would have, trust me.
but i was not able.

my life was a complete disaster spiritually. by the world's standards i was very successful in every way.
neither i nor those around me could understand why the continuing depression and crying - i had everything life could offer! what's wrong???? "i don't know...i don't know"

ever meet ppl in this condition?

the scriptures which speak of our choice are equally met by those who say the natural man is not able.
whether you agree with original sin, or a bent will, or a sin nature or not....what are you going to do about passagse like 1 Corinthians 2:14? and what are you going to do with ppl like me who appear before you, in bondage, blind and dead but suffering?

it might be a good idea to assume the Lord is drawing that one to Jesus. if what they hear is stop sinning then you will be saved, believe me again, that man is not able. or....he may be able to control his nature for awhile, but his sins are not forgiven, and he is not a new man without the new birth.

so, though he knows his ways are hurting him, he doesn't know what to do...self-help/psychology/drugs/food/work.....

what is the only remedy for any of us for anything we can possibly hope to be or do (or not be and not do)?

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

why does Paul make a special, and strange remark about being not being ashamed of the Gospel?

2 Timothy 3
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
10You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be competent, equipped for every good work.

this is why i have a serious problem with Methodism.
what can our pragmatism do compared to the power of Holy Spirit and the scriptures, for everything from bringing the dead man to life to delivering him Home purified by Christ?

do you know of anything?

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

love ya
zone

PatientSpirit · Jan 4, 2013

zone said:

absolutely it is His will that we put off the old man, continue in the faith.

but the old man was at war with God, hating Him, hiding from Him....even as He was reconciling us to Him, without our permission i'll dare to say

so if we narrow this down, we are talking about believers. not unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

as Gramps has said, and i agree...this was once me.
if i had been able to accept the things of God, i would have, trust me.
but i was not able.

my life was a complete disaster spiritually. by the world's standards i was very successful in every way.
neither i nor those around me could understand why the continuing depression and crying - i had everything life could offer! what's wrong???? "i don't know...i don't know"

ever meet ppl in this condition?

the scriptures which speak of our choice are equally met by those who say the natural man is not able.
whether you agree with original sin, or a bent will, or a sin nature or not....what are you going to do about passagse like 1 Corinthians 2:14? and what are you going to do with ppl like me who appear before you, in bondage, blind and dead but suffering?

it might be a good idea to assume the Lord is drawing that one to Jesus. if what they hear is stop sinning then you will be saved, believe me again, that man is not able. or....he may be able to control his nature for awhile, but his sins are not forgiven, and he is not a new man without the new birth.

so, though he knows his ways are hurting him, he doesn't know what to do...self-help/psychology/drugs/food/work.....

what is the only remedy for any of us for anything we can possibly hope to be or do (or not be and not do)?

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

why does Paul make a special, and strange remark about being not being ashamed of the Gospel?

2 Timothy 3
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
10You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be competent, equipped for every good work.

this is why i have a serious problem with Methodism.
what can our pragmatism do compared to the power of Holy Spirit and the scriptures, for everything from bringing the dead man to life to delivering him Home purified by Christ?

do you know of anything?

love ya
zone

How is this possible? Believers are being led whether they want to or not, but unbelievers get the shaft?

This is confusion. God leads all!

zone · Jan 4, 2013

PatientSpirit said:

why not start a thread on how the lake of fire is purgatory and everybody including satan come out nice and clean.
bye.

rauleetoe · Jan 4, 2013

zone said:

Well if you are meaning the attempts of one to do something outside of God, yes Amen..that cannot be..and it is not with true classical arminianism! I am only able to humbly point to Arminian theology myths&realities..by Roger E Olson, and say that any work, if we can call it a 'work' is simply the fruit of sincere christian conversion that is only preceded by non resistance to God's grace, which is available to help enable you to walk this walk. Holiness is simply a sincere response to grace and is grace motivated, it is simply the work of the Holy Spirit in man that helps a man to do this. If i were to say, I did this..its all me, yes..i would be foolish and wrong! But i did not say this(not implying you did but others have accused me of saying this and worse things) I appreciate you for sticking to what i say and not using injurious words, even with your disagreeing you have been civil and not taking stabs at me. This is a good example of how christians of varying 'emphasis' can live in harmony. I do still however believe God wants all christians to live for him..whether we call it 'grace', or holiness..it is true holiness, if we are in tuned with God's spirit..I will steal a little motto from Mr. Obama, (even though i didnt vote for him) Yes we can! (in Christ, by the Holy Spirit's power)

PatientSpirit · Jan 4, 2013

zone said:

You love confusion. Atleast correct yourself zone. If everything was made FOR Him, what will not be reconciled to Him?

zone · Jan 4, 2013

rauleetoe said:

haha rauleetoe.
yes, we can.

i will look online today for Arminian theology myths&realities..by Roger E Olson.

thing is though, when you're someone like me who knows for certain they didn't choose the Lord, nothing synergism says can convince me otherwise.

i was stone cold dead and already in the grave when Jesus reached down for me. i stunketh

(love that in the KJV)

zone...come out!

take the graveclothes off her < i'm totally serious. that's how it was. i was repenting and didn't know what it was. it wasn't until i was reborn that i knew. Just like Jesus said it was with everyone born of the Spirit. i didn't know where it came from , but i knew it happened.

what person says "i want to be baptized"? a dead man? i dunno, bud.

as Gramps said, maybe at some point i made a decision for Jesus. if i did, i sure don't remember which came first.

early on, i (when i was able) read this:

Romans 7
The Law and Sin
7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

....and i went! THAT'S ME!

over time, i turned the pages and looked for what's next < put to death the old man. cast off those grave clothes...but it takes as long as the continuing from Romans 7 to Romans 8 (and 9 and so on) takes.

don't you think so?

if i stay with Romans 7 i may not see the victory i want. if i continue, what do i find? courage and faith to believe this is what is happening to me:

Romasn 8
Life in the Spirit
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

i am so grateful i was segregated from weird perfectionist teachings for 3 months.
i had already hurt myself enough...
love z

zone · Jan 4, 2013

PatientSpirit said:

as i said, i have yet to meet a universalist who has ever changed their mind.
sorry for you.
youll be off in another religion soon if you dont repent.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 4, 2013

rauleetoe said:

what is your main problem?? Why do you keep saying I do not think this is possible. This is your false believe I think this. and not reality!

You and I are discussing can someone lose salvation. Not is it possible for a child of God to live a righteous life. so why would that even be part of the questioning? That is your addition to our conversation. Because you refuse to listen to what i say, you seem to think i have some vendetta against you.l so instead of listening to what i try to say, you put your defensive face on.. and in doing so, you continue to say I do not believe things I do. i believe things I do not. and whatever else comes out.

Not only is it possible for a christian to live according to those principles. THEY WILL.. what they will never be is perfect.

who do you think the babes Paul spoke to in 1 corinthians were? you know the people who still struggled with pride. with sexual sin. with many things. because they still had not learned to trust God (they were babes still learning) thus paul could not teach them advanced things of God because they had not got the basics down yet?? how many of those people died before they grew up and pauls words had a chance to sink in? are they in hell today because they were still babes in christ and still struggling with sin issues? or are they in heaven, because they trusted god to save them. and they had not yet LEARNED what it meant to trust God in all areas of our lives??

eternally-gratefull · Jan 4, 2013

PatientSpirit said:

1. God will not remove free will
2. God will not force someone to come to him
3. God offers everyone the ability to be reconciled to him. so he is a fair God. but he will not force someone who has no desire to come to him and receive his gift to take it.

PatientSpirit · Jan 4, 2013

zone said:

Why change my mind? There is no other Rock upon which to stand.

You make me out to be a universalist. Never met one. You won't even address your own mistakes and contradictions, but I don't change my mind?

When I started on CC, I didn't believe that all men will be saved. I matured into it by NOT being afraid to say I was wrong.

I mean were on a thread debating is it possible for calvinists and arminians to be able to fellowship with one another! Their both CHRISTIAN! It sounds like two rival gangs arguing over money and territory.

But hey, as long as both are selling death they're accepted right?

Would you count it a good thing if Christ saved all?

Because both calvinists and arminians are too busy arguing with eachother to save anyone!

PatientSpirit · Jan 4, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

And we're back to square 1 with your confusion! Do I have to find one of your posts stating that GOD saved you! Now that you are saved, why do you expect everyone else to find God on their own?

And again, no such thing as free will. The choices we DO make are constrained within the options provided only by God.

What free gift of God (those that can be seen) can be rejected? Life, the sun, the rain. These things are free.

zone · Jan 4, 2013

PatientSpirit said:

alright.
let's see how mature you are.
you said you're not afraid to admit you're wrong.
how willing are you to be honest? let's start there.
is this about you?

is a practicing and unapologetic/unrepentant homosexual who professes Christ being saved in spite of his fulfilling those lusts without care?

just answer the question as i asked it, please.
ty.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 4, 2013

PatientSpirit said:

You won;t find them. because scripture does say I am saved. i was saved by placing my faith in the work of God. and because of this. GOD SAVED ME.

1 this makes no sense. if God gives us options. are we not free to chose which option we want to follow?
2. If there is no free will, we are robots. and God is not the loving God he claims to be..

are you saying God is not a God of love?

The sun can't save your eternal soul, The rain can't save your eternal soul. , Those things are given because mankind as living breathing creatures need them to survive physically here on earth, and would not get the opportunity to be saved eternally when this earth is gone.

But spiritual life is not something God gives everyone, he offers it to them. but he will not force anyone to take it.. Your logic is flawed in so many ways. Your trying to convince yourself it seems, and not trying to convince any of us, because what you say does not make sense.

PatientSpirit · Jan 4, 2013

zone said:

YES! How can a gay man be gay, when in Christ there is no male or female?

When I reached puberty, my teachers didn't teach me about girls for fear I my turn those feelings of attraction towards another man! Loving women was just in me. The only thing the world did was influence my preferences (tall short, small big etc). It's the same for them.

The world didn't accept homosexuals before Christ. What has changed?

zone · Jan 4, 2013

zone said:

next question:

is a practicing and unapologetic/unrepentant homosexual who does not profess Christ being saved in spite of his fulfilling those lusts without care?

let's not derail this thread. make another if you want.

Is fellowship possible between Calvinists and Arminians?

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