Is God victorious is your spirit or are demons present also?
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"it is a well documented fact, that Christians can and do have demons in them"
Lauren believes this is true, I do not. Theologically there are problems involved in this
concept. It is like saying the Lord of All creation cannot cast out a demon from an
individual, but has to put up with this part possession or connection.
I think this illustrates experience being taken as the dominating driver of belief.
I would rather suggest those who want to deceive and lie, will always mix God and
evil spirits, and saying a prophet does not know who he is speaking on behalf of,
but you must not question it, because that is judgemental.
I would ask are there any examples of this is scripture?
Saul was tormented by a spirit.
All the evil spirits fled Jesus, and Peter.
A preacher was beaten up because he was not recognised as having spiritual
authority.
Paul talks about us being the temple of God, no demons or anything else present.
So if the evidence is so obvious as Lauren claims, let people bring it forth.
Lauren believes this is true, I do not. Theologically there are problems involved in this
concept. It is like saying the Lord of All creation cannot cast out a demon from an
individual, but has to put up with this part possession or connection.
I think this illustrates experience being taken as the dominating driver of belief.
I would rather suggest those who want to deceive and lie, will always mix God and
evil spirits, and saying a prophet does not know who he is speaking on behalf of,
but you must not question it, because that is judgemental.
I would ask are there any examples of this is scripture?
Saul was tormented by a spirit.
All the evil spirits fled Jesus, and Peter.
A preacher was beaten up because he was not recognised as having spiritual
authority.
Paul talks about us being the temple of God, no demons or anything else present.
So if the evidence is so obvious as Lauren claims, let people bring it forth.
When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.
Matt 8:16
When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.”
Luke 11:24-26
The picture is of people being set free from possession but unless they
fill themselves with the spirit of God, there end state will be worse.
The general opinion here is demons cannot possess christians.
Lauren is the only exception to date.
Matt 8:16
When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.”
Luke 11:24-26
The picture is of people being set free from possession but unless they
fill themselves with the spirit of God, there end state will be worse.
The general opinion here is demons cannot possess christians.
Lauren is the only exception to date.
A
Your first post in this thread, I was inclined to disagree with, but this one makes me think that maybe we don't disagree as much as might be assumed initially.
I don't think demons can possess people who are born again.
However, demons can be present in the lives of believers. They can whisper lies and influence the words and minds of nonbelievers around that person. They can torment them in dreams, because Jesus told His disciples to stay awake and pray for a reason.
Normally it happens to new believers who haven't been fully rooted in Christ yet.
I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, but am shocked at how many haven't read the whole Bible.
I am not saying that to boast at how often I have, but to marvel at how they can function in this spiritual war without knowing what the Bible says. Maybe they have a strong connection with the Holy Spirit and have been hedged around by His angels, they don't need as much scripture daily? or maybe the Enemy doesn't see them as a threat?
I don't know. I am not one to judge.
I know the answer is always Christ. Through faith and prayer, God will send angels to get rid of the demons.
However if the person does not turn from their sin back to God, you are right to say they will be worst off because the Bible says 7 more demons will inhabit a cleaned house.
However, the point of casting out demons in an unsaved person is to have a peaceful time to speak to the person and tell them the gospel. If by God's grace the soul depends and accepts, then God can send His Holy Spirit to lead and guide them.
Anyway I have rambled enough. It should be an interesting conversation, if people can keep it about the topic and not personal judgements of others.
Maybe it's naive of me to hope, you can ignore the jab of a certain poster?
I don't think demons can possess people who are born again.
However, demons can be present in the lives of believers. They can whisper lies and influence the words and minds of nonbelievers around that person. They can torment them in dreams, because Jesus told His disciples to stay awake and pray for a reason.
Normally it happens to new believers who haven't been fully rooted in Christ yet.
I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, but am shocked at how many haven't read the whole Bible.
I am not saying that to boast at how often I have, but to marvel at how they can function in this spiritual war without knowing what the Bible says. Maybe they have a strong connection with the Holy Spirit and have been hedged around by His angels, they don't need as much scripture daily? or maybe the Enemy doesn't see them as a threat?
I don't know. I am not one to judge.
I know the answer is always Christ. Through faith and prayer, God will send angels to get rid of the demons.
However if the person does not turn from their sin back to God, you are right to say they will be worst off because the Bible says 7 more demons will inhabit a cleaned house.
However, the point of casting out demons in an unsaved person is to have a peaceful time to speak to the person and tell them the gospel. If by God's grace the soul depends and accepts, then God can send His Holy Spirit to lead and guide them.
Anyway I have rambled enough. It should be an interesting conversation, if people can keep it about the topic and not personal judgements of others.
Maybe it's naive of me to hope, you can ignore the jab of a certain poster?
A
In case you missed it.....
Anyway, I am going to say a prayer because I like praying and the Enemy hates when we pray. Folks might call it pretentious and prideful, but it's just me stepping out in faith.
Personally I am tired of the enemies fear tactics to have God's children to shut up and let them continue torturing their victims. So anyone who feels moved to, please pray with me.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come before you humbled today. In awe of your majesty of love and grace. We thank you for your protection and providence, both seen and unseen. We thank you for Your Word, your love and grace. Help us to love others as you have loved us. Help us display the fruits of walking with You, Lord. May our words be life giving waters to the refreshment of the world. May we learn to be gentle, patient and truthful, so that we might glorify Your name. As we gather here to discuss Your truth, help us to be humble and living with our words and our views of one another ..,let us be quick to hear and slow to anger. Instead let us magnify You. Lord, we are in a spiritual war and You would not have us be ignorant. Therefore let us learn from our fellow brothers and sisters how to stand upon Your truth. Show us how to bandage the wounded and help heal the broken hearted. Lord May we be Your hands and feet in this world. Cleanse us Lord and renew our minds and hearts. You know our unspoken hurts and pains, heal us so that we may be a light that points to You. In Jesus Holy name we pray, amen.
Anyway, I am going to say a prayer because I like praying and the Enemy hates when we pray. Folks might call it pretentious and prideful, but it's just me stepping out in faith.
Personally I am tired of the enemies fear tactics to have God's children to shut up and let them continue torturing their victims. So anyone who feels moved to, please pray with me.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come before you humbled today. In awe of your majesty of love and grace. We thank you for your protection and providence, both seen and unseen. We thank you for Your Word, your love and grace. Help us to love others as you have loved us. Help us display the fruits of walking with You, Lord. May our words be life giving waters to the refreshment of the world. May we learn to be gentle, patient and truthful, so that we might glorify Your name. As we gather here to discuss Your truth, help us to be humble and living with our words and our views of one another ..,let us be quick to hear and slow to anger. Instead let us magnify You. Lord, we are in a spiritual war and You would not have us be ignorant. Therefore let us learn from our fellow brothers and sisters how to stand upon Your truth. Show us how to bandage the wounded and help heal the broken hearted. Lord May we be Your hands and feet in this world. Cleanse us Lord and renew our minds and hearts. You know our unspoken hurts and pains, heal us so that we may be a light that points to You. In Jesus Holy name we pray, amen.
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Ariel - Lauren is quite capable of answering her own position.
In truth a lot of charismatic preachers have talked about the Jezebel spirit and how
many people and churches are influenced by it. Whole articles were written.
But when you break it down, it becomes something very different.
The Todd Bentley revival in Florida and Bethel with the fire tunnel, have also been linked
with the Kundaliny spirit.
Certainly it appears people are literally "drunk" in the Spirit, which is deemed by
Latter rain as a blessing. People being slain in the Spirit also, in meetings I have
been part of. Alongside this we have people barking like dogs etc. said to be similar
manifestations.
Now because this is so prevalent, but maybe has gone away, but I doubt it, I am
seeing who is actually willing to put their position under scrutiny.
NAR even talked about defeating the territorial spirits in areas, which justified a
trip to everest. But maybe this has now become a joke, which from my perspective
is where it should stay.
In truth a lot of charismatic preachers have talked about the Jezebel spirit and how
many people and churches are influenced by it. Whole articles were written.
But when you break it down, it becomes something very different.
The Todd Bentley revival in Florida and Bethel with the fire tunnel, have also been linked
with the Kundaliny spirit.
Certainly it appears people are literally "drunk" in the Spirit, which is deemed by
Latter rain as a blessing. People being slain in the Spirit also, in meetings I have
been part of. Alongside this we have people barking like dogs etc. said to be similar
manifestations.
Now because this is so prevalent, but maybe has gone away, but I doubt it, I am
seeing who is actually willing to put their position under scrutiny.
NAR even talked about defeating the territorial spirits in areas, which justified a
trip to everest. But maybe this has now become a joke, which from my perspective
is where it should stay.
It's the people that reject the grace of Christ and malign other believers when they don't agree with what they have been taught by their religious teachings - these are the ones that are deceived by the enemies evil religious spirits with all their lies and deceptions.
It is obvious that Christians can have their minds filled with all kinds of nonsense and think it's godly. I wonder where that influence comes from? ( we know it doesn't come from Christ or our Father )
The very ones that espouse with some words that we are to walk in righteousness and purity are the very same ones that exhibit this continuous insulting of others and this atrocious behavior is deemed to be ok and godly to them. It just boggles my mind when I read some of the stuff posted from supposedly godly people.
People of the world and other Christians know the difference when this behavior is being exhibited. This kind of behavior is exactly why the name of Christ is maligned and rejected by people.
Even Gandhi knew the difference and this meme speaks volumes to us.
It is obvious that Christians can have their minds filled with all kinds of nonsense and think it's godly. I wonder where that influence comes from? ( we know it doesn't come from Christ or our Father )
The very ones that espouse with some words that we are to walk in righteousness and purity are the very same ones that exhibit this continuous insulting of others and this atrocious behavior is deemed to be ok and godly to them. It just boggles my mind when I read some of the stuff posted from supposedly godly people.
People of the world and other Christians know the difference when this behavior is being exhibited. This kind of behavior is exactly why the name of Christ is maligned and rejected by people.
Even Gandhi knew the difference and this meme speaks volumes to us.
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Amen. But who is it that has the nonsense and who has the words of the Lord.
Jesus put it like this,
If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
John 12:47-48
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Luke 11:28
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 14:24
Now if you follow Jesus and His words, amen, if not, you are following a different
faith. It is this simple.
Jesus put it like this,
If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
John 12:47-48
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Luke 11:28
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 14:24
Now if you follow Jesus and His words, amen, if not, you are following a different
faith. It is this simple.
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
1 Peter 3:15-16
I hold to what I believe and follow, the word of God. I want to discuss and debate
its various points.
Now I have noticed some members would rather slander others, than openly declare
their beliefs, probably because they know they do not stand up to scrutiny.
But walking in the light is about bringing things into the open, it is who Jesus is.
So please my friends, my brothers and sisters, if you feel demons are a problem,
let us share about it.
I suspect though those who would want to share, know they will be "attacked"
so would rather stay silent, because that is how scripture is about their position.
1 Peter 3:15-16
I hold to what I believe and follow, the word of God. I want to discuss and debate
its various points.
Now I have noticed some members would rather slander others, than openly declare
their beliefs, probably because they know they do not stand up to scrutiny.
But walking in the light is about bringing things into the open, it is who Jesus is.
So please my friends, my brothers and sisters, if you feel demons are a problem,
let us share about it.
I suspect though those who would want to share, know they will be "attacked"
so would rather stay silent, because that is how scripture is about their position.
2 Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
2 Cor 7:1 ¶ Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
If you hang out with the devils crowd you will begin to act like them.
The church is to be light and salt in the world not be it's drinking and dancing buddy.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
2 Cor 7:1 ¶ Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
If you hang out with the devils crowd you will begin to act like them.
The church is to be light and salt in the world not be it's drinking and dancing buddy.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
L
now here is what I have really stated, quite a few times, in the forums in various threads:
the word possession has been taught to mean demon possessed
the original manuscript has been misinterpreted to mean the demon has the person...the person actually has the demon
if a person is a smoker before conversion and they end up with lung cancer, does conversion suddenly make them well and healthy? not usually...although it has been known to happen
in the same way, when a person is saved, they do not suddenly become without problems or sins.
no, you don't blame the devil for everything, but he sure is responsible for alot, including getting Christians to believe he cannot harm them or that demons cannot enter flesh that is going to die anyway
our spirits are born or made alive in Christ when we are saved
our souls are not our spirits and our flesh is not our spirits
if people want to believe the devil is a toothless old lion instead of the roaring lion scripture states he is, seeking for someone to devour, ignore at your own peril
the devil is not someone to be scared of..but ignorance is his playground and no protection at all
I have also, many many times, stated that Christians cannot be demon possessed...but the truth is, jens here does not understand the original language as I have also explained multiple times
no worries though
I also have a word for you Jens...right from the Bible...
The Ninth Commandment is found in Exodus 20:16:
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” This principle includes all forms of lying.
God of truth
God is a God of truth. He wants us to learn to hate lying and dishonesty and to love truth. Consider these scriptures about how important truth is to God:
- “He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is He” (Deuteronomy 32:4).
- “His truth endures to all generations” (Psalm 100:5).
- “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6).
- “Your word is truth” (John 17:17).
- “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice” (John 18:37).
L
Christiains cannot be possessed...possession denotes ownership
however, as I have explained multiple times on this site, the original language does not state that people are possessed...it is rather the people who possess the demon
if I have the time later on today, I will try to post the info and more about demons...again, in the original text, we see demons having structure as per Paul's letter to the Ephesians, chapter 6...in fact, better yet, I may start a thread for clarification and of course hope to see you there too...best to hear what one actually believes from that person and not play a game of broken telephone..
to get something straight though, for anyone reading, I do not look for demons under every rock, I do not chase them or go on field trips praying about them nor do I claim anything. I follow what I believe is the biblical principal...see, Christians are supposed to know how to deal with these things, but let's face, many do not or what they do know, is not even biblical
I have cast demons out of people...I am not a so called deliverance minister..just a Christian who follows the injunction to cast demons out...this applies to Christians...whether they are in or around I don't know...although they do seem to be in...and again, not possession...that is never implied in scripture.
I would agree that we can bind the demons in an unsaved person for them to be able to accept Christ...casting them out, will result in them coming back IMO.
I have seen enough behavior in Christians that is demon influenced that I am not going to lie to save face here or to save myself from sounding like a nut...to know that Christians need help in this area. And no, I do not think everything is a demon nor do I think that bad behavior or sin is the devil's 'fault'
this could get really long, so I will cut it
but I think we share similar thoughts on this...so thanks
as far as the 'certain poster' goes...I replied and indicated what I really state as well as a warning from God regarding slander and lying
no one can read these posts and many others I have made and state I believe Christians can be demon possessed
I have said the opposite mulitple times
thanks
E
Very well put! You have also correctly attempted to teach the proper name for it. As you stated correctly, The Bible uses the term demon-possessed, there is no term called possession. I use the term demonization myself, because it is accurate to the condition of the people Jesus ministered to.
A blood bought, born again spirit filled believer producing the Fruit and Gifts of the Spirit cannot be demonized in their spirit as many think and say.
The primary motivation of so called deliverance ministries today, that promote this false teaching and write books about spirits they have named is nothing other than money.
In my years in ministry, dealing with the demonic has happened, but in the larger scheme of things, many so called "deliverance ministries" are so deceived themselves, they cannot discern between the truly demonic and those believers who walk in the flesh and continually manifest the works of the flesh and not because they have a demon of something, but because they are not really born again or they are born again and have not taught to renew their minds to the word of God.
Good stuff! thanks for fighting the fight of faith on this topic.
A blood bought, born again spirit filled believer producing the Fruit and Gifts of the Spirit cannot be demonized in their spirit as many think and say.
The primary motivation of so called deliverance ministries today, that promote this false teaching and write books about spirits they have named is nothing other than money.
In my years in ministry, dealing with the demonic has happened, but in the larger scheme of things, many so called "deliverance ministries" are so deceived themselves, they cannot discern between the truly demonic and those believers who walk in the flesh and continually manifest the works of the flesh and not because they have a demon of something, but because they are not really born again or they are born again and have not taught to renew their minds to the word of God.
Good stuff! thanks for fighting the fight of faith on this topic.
L
will post it later I think
I was just responding in the new thread from Angelique...see you posted as well
I could pull my hair out when everyone just jumps on board with Another God moment!
I cannot ever stress enough the need for caution and discernment and I know that is frowned on in many circles with folks thinking that God would not allow them to be deceived
anyway
I was just responding in the new thread from Angelique...see you posted as well
I could pull my hair out when everyone just jumps on board with Another God moment!
I cannot ever stress enough the need for caution and discernment and I know that is frowned on in many circles with folks thinking that God would not allow them to be deceived
anyway
Bible hub puts the verse Matt 18:16 to be "daimonizomenous"
The English translation of "demon possession" is used to translate the Greek terms "diamonizomai" and "echein daimonion".
Diamonizomai means "to be under the power of a demon." In all 13 occurrences of this term in the New Testament, each case referred to some form of demonization where the demon appears to reside in the human being.
The etymology of the participle daimonizomenos is revealing. The root word daimon refers to demons. The causative stem iz indicates that there is an active cause to the verb daimonizomai. The passive ending omenos indicates the passivity of the subject. Thus the etymological definition is "a demon caused passivity."
Echein daimonion means "to have a demon." In all 9 occurrences of this term in the New Testament, each case referred to some form of demonization where the demon appears to reside in the human being.
The majority of references in the New Testament that refer to demonic influences involve the use of the Greek term "daimonion," which means "a demonic being." Of the 60 occurrences of this term in the New Testament, 52 referred to some form of demonization where the demon appears to reside in the human being.
What is Demon Possession?
I do not read here any of the things you are claiming Lauren.
It appears to be your proposition a young believer newly converted could still
be possessed by a demon.
I would question whether it was possible to come to faith and be possessed.
Most of the testimonies I have read it has been around people seeking the casting
out of the demons, and then faith comes.
I am sorry if you feel I miss-characterised you. You were the only person who
implied an issue around being in faith and being influenced or possessed by a demon.
Certainly on cc those in the deliverence game have not been that prevalent.
You are very quick to say I am slandering you, rather than highlighting your queries
and proposition. Do you understand the difference or choose not to because it is me?
The English translation of "demon possession" is used to translate the Greek terms "diamonizomai" and "echein daimonion".
Diamonizomai means "to be under the power of a demon." In all 13 occurrences of this term in the New Testament, each case referred to some form of demonization where the demon appears to reside in the human being.
The etymology of the participle daimonizomenos is revealing. The root word daimon refers to demons. The causative stem iz indicates that there is an active cause to the verb daimonizomai. The passive ending omenos indicates the passivity of the subject. Thus the etymological definition is "a demon caused passivity."
Echein daimonion means "to have a demon." In all 9 occurrences of this term in the New Testament, each case referred to some form of demonization where the demon appears to reside in the human being.
The majority of references in the New Testament that refer to demonic influences involve the use of the Greek term "daimonion," which means "a demonic being." Of the 60 occurrences of this term in the New Testament, 52 referred to some form of demonization where the demon appears to reside in the human being.
What is Demon Possession?
I do not read here any of the things you are claiming Lauren.
It appears to be your proposition a young believer newly converted could still
be possessed by a demon.
I would question whether it was possible to come to faith and be possessed.
Most of the testimonies I have read it has been around people seeking the casting
out of the demons, and then faith comes.
I am sorry if you feel I miss-characterised you. You were the only person who
implied an issue around being in faith and being influenced or possessed by a demon.
Certainly on cc those in the deliverence game have not been that prevalent.
You are very quick to say I am slandering you, rather than highlighting your queries
and proposition. Do you understand the difference or choose not to because it is me?
L
you have screwed up what I posted so badly I am not even going to try to untangle it
I think people here know better and are catching on regarding your posting style
enough said
I will just make note, once again, that I do not believe Christians are owned by the devil
I do think some of them serve him nonetheless