It's starting to get comical watching people try so hard to convince others when I think it's themselves they are trying to convince, that God wouldn't let anyone who rejects Yeshua, to burn in the lake of fire forever. It scares you all who believe like this. But through all your silly ways of trying to make sense of it all, the fact is you can't change what scripture says. It says words like eternal, forever and ever. So no matter how you try to take it apart, you're wrong and try to teach false doctrine in the process. Because if you go to the eternal lake of fire, those who make it to heaven will never think a second thought of your eternal suffering. And the worse part of it is neither will God. You all who are trying to belittle God's punishment, by saying the second death is basically a ceasing to exist, need to go back to the dictionary and re read what eternal means and forever means. STOP TRYING TO CHANGE GOD'S WORD TO FIT YOUR FEAR. God is a loving God, but scripture is clear that He is a wrathful God as well. Shalom
IS HELL A PLACE OF TORTURE?
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Funny that someone who uses the flag of Israel and defends Torah keeping would diverge from the Hebrew understanding of death, Sheol, the nature of man and eternal destination. Judaism has never supported a doctrine of the immortality of man, which is a necessary condition for eternal torment. Judaism has never supported a doctrine of torment or eternal suffering for the wicked, but rather taught that the good and the bad alike go to Sheol, the grave, a place without consciousness, until the resurrection of the just and the just only. Since this is the backdrop and foundation out of which Christianity was born it is best to understand how verses in the NT relate to the understanding that the authors, who were predominantly Jewish, would have received as part of their cultural and religious heritage.
Like some denominations in christianity, there are many differents sects of judaism, so your arguement is week. But for the most part in judaism, you don't know what you're talking about at all. I love it when someone thinks they can educate me about my own people and country, it truly makes me laugh. Would you like to try again?
Yes, there are branches in modern Judaism, and there have always been sects. But you really have to limit yourself to Judaism within the past couple hundred years to find any notion of hell as a place of eternal torment with an resemblance of "mainstream" acceptance, and even that is a stretch.
I am an American, a WASP if you will, and quite interested in history and culture of American and other peoples and places as well. But there is much that non WASP Americans could teach me about the history of my country. Especially non-WASP Americans who had studied American WASP history and culture at the college level as I studied Jewish studies at the college level. About half of my personal library is dedicated to books on the history of Israel and the Jewish people, including Steinberg's "Basic Judaism", Scheindlin "A Short History of the Jewish People", Rabbi Kertzer's "What is a Jew?" and my personal favorite, "A History of the Jewish Experience" by Leo Trepp. While you no doubt know more about your people than I do from an experiential perspective that I don't share, you shouldn't be so arrogant to think that no one can teach you about your people. It's unbecoming.
I am an American, a WASP if you will, and quite interested in history and culture of American and other peoples and places as well. But there is much that non WASP Americans could teach me about the history of my country. Especially non-WASP Americans who had studied American WASP history and culture at the college level as I studied Jewish studies at the college level. About half of my personal library is dedicated to books on the history of Israel and the Jewish people, including Steinberg's "Basic Judaism", Scheindlin "A Short History of the Jewish People", Rabbi Kertzer's "What is a Jew?" and my personal favorite, "A History of the Jewish Experience" by Leo Trepp. While you no doubt know more about your people than I do from an experiential perspective that I don't share, you shouldn't be so arrogant to think that no one can teach you about your people. It's unbecoming.
Don't misunderstand me, I don't think that someone outside of my people and country can't teach me something, because then not only would I be pompous and arrogant, but just stupid. But when someone tries to teach me something through my people to back up scripture because of a few jewish books they read and it's just plain incorrect, I get a little bent. I don't doubt your educated distinctive, I've read some of your post that are really good. Maybe I re-acted a little harsh and for that I apologize. But Judaism is not scarce on the eternal life with God.
I never said it was scarce on the eternal life with God, I said it was scarce on the eternal life APART from God. Second Temple Judaism and its predecesors typically ascribed to the resurrection of the righteous dead but not the unrighteous dead. All that awaited the unrighteous was the grave, not hell torment.
L
Jude 1:7
(7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Tell me are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? That is an example of what will happen. Instead of acting like you have all the answers why don't you stop and have a look and be like those in Berea.
Acts 17:11
(11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
GEHENNA:
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of
the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii.
23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and
"Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."
Reference (Link): -->> JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of
the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii.
23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and
"Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."
Reference (Link): -->> JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
Lao, scripture says in Rev. 20 that there torment is FOREVER AND EVER, if you can't grasp and wrap your mind around it for fear than I don't know what to tell you. If constantly quoting the Bible showing infallable proof of the eternal suffering of the lake of fire doesn't fit for you way of thinking, than I suggest you stay out of this conversation. Because you haven't given one clear verse that proves otherwise. And what's worse is your arguing with God's Word, not mine. Why would I want to be like someone else. I'm sorry Lao, but I'm not a follower.
Revelation 20
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
All of the humans in the passage that you cited are DEVOURED by fire, i.e. destroyed. Those who are tormented forever and ever are ONLY the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Lao isn't avoiding scripture, just rightly dividing it.
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
All of the humans in the passage that you cited are DEVOURED by fire, i.e. destroyed. Those who are tormented forever and ever are ONLY the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Lao isn't avoiding scripture, just rightly dividing it.
I agree they are devoured, and perhaps you are intimating if not saying outright that it
isn't 'eternal' in that way. But the idea is, that each generation, every generation, sees
war. We are in war right now, we have been fighting the crusades with Islam for over 800
years. Islam because of apostasy such as sects of She-ites (sic) and Sunnis and apostate
or hypocritical Persians blow themselves and each other up. The real question for the
west is, where is our righteousness. We simply go at it today as two street gangs, both in
the wrong, fighting for Serpent's Seed.
The World Trade Center was an inferno, lake of fire of hellfire and brimstone, a sort of
Tower(s) of Babble in Modern Babble-on (sic). Temples to the Money God, Greed, Pride
and Lust. Temples to world trade and globalism and New World Order. Many never
wanted them in the first place, and they were used to precipitate yet more snakes
crawling on their bellies in the garden of Eden.
Point -- Fire of war happens again and again, generation to generation, not 'once forever'
as it relates to a particular person, but forever in the sense of continuous war, generation
to generation.
Sadly you are also correct, the Devil / Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet are always
behind these wars. Today I think it can be clearly seen and thus stated, the False Prophet
is the Archbishop of Canterburry, The Queen's Boy of the Queens Religion of BAAL worship
-- The U.K.
Satan / Lucifer is the masonic cult and its many factions from the Fraternal Order of
Police, to the College Fraternity and Sorority sects, to the masonic lodges, elks, moose,
rotary and such like. Here again, the Queen is the (at least honorary) head of the Masons.
The Beast is The Roman Empire, now masked in the ROMAN Cat holic (sic) Church (RCC).
Always a part of the War System, always the masons kissing the ring and kneeling before
the Papal Throne. Two last empires .. Britain and Rome.
I agree, Laodicea is not off base perhaps just misunderstood.
L
Ezekiel 28:16-19
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
L
Indeed, the very Word of God is clear on the tortures of the damned. They shall be roasted, naked & alive, over hot coals. They who were once proud & haughty in this life, will have their entrails spilled out & gnawed by the worm that never dies. The screams of the evil Harlots, Whores & idle worshippers will resound in this blazing cavern below the earth. God will rip out the painted eyes of whores & homersexuals & we will see him inflict pain on those who mocked our faith. We will celebrate as their vile bodies are thrown to the birds & ravens carry them away as carrion. We will hear them breaking on the rack & we will worsip God forever ! Hell exists, hell is real & hell could be for YOU, if you are a Non-Believer as you read these words! Do YOU want to suffer for all eternity? think about it, do you?
distinctive, God told Adam and Eve in the garden if they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they will surely die. Now when they did eat, did they die, NO not physically, they died spiritually because at that moment they seperated from God. So it with common sense that since too many places in the Bible talk about eternal damnation and suffering. It is pretty easy to figure out that destroyed does not mean cease to exist.