Is it lawful to pray to and worship Jesus, and Holy Spirit?

[Red33]

The witness of the scriptures is not the end of all things, but just barely the beginning of our coming to know God. Even in scripture we find the reality of coming into the presence of Jesus in heaven, and this with the one called the disciple whom Jesus loved. This says nothing of coming into the holy place where the Father dwells.

One day you will tell us of what you know, not what you have read or been taught by men.

We have access BY FAITH to the Father through the Son who rent the veil from top to bottom (Mt 27:51), and the result of that for those that believe upon the Son is written in (Heb 10:19-23)...

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Jesus Christ has given us access to the holy place (Heb 9:12), the holiest (Heb 10:19) through His blood that was sprinkled on the mercy seat by the high priest, Christ (Rom 3:25, 1Jn 2:2, 4:10, Heb 9:1-28). There is no way that we could come to the Father except through the blood and body of Christ, that was shed and offered once and for all (Heb 7:27, 10:10) that was used to consecrate a new and living way for us. We have unfettered access to the Father and that access can never be taken from the believer because that access came through the blood of Christ. The veil is gone and we can freely approach the Father by faith through the blood and body of Christ for fellowship and communion. Without the blood and body of Christ there would be no access by one Spirit to the Father (Eph 2:18).

 

[VW]

These are not assertions they are what the scriptures teach to all believers and shouldn't we be confident in the word that God has given to us? Has the blood failed to justify the believer and give access to the Father through the Son? Perhaps you do not know the scriptures as you should and esteem the gift you say you have from God over and above the written word. That could explain how someone could be misled.

They are assertions when you are only repeating what is written in scripture. Scripture is the basis of your faith and your relationship with God. At one time, many years ago, it was the basis of my faith also. It is not the basis of my faith any more. God is the basis of my faith.

Here is a truth for you, which you will not accept, (I fear to your destruction.) faith based in and upon scripture will not save you. You can believe scripture in all that it says, and if you do not develops a relationship with the Father through Jesus, not only has your faith not saved you, but it has made you even more deceived than if you had never read or heard a word of scripture at all.

How can this be?

Simply because one replaces true fellowship with the Father and the Son and the Spirit with religious belief, traditions, and observances.

You believe that scripture teaches, but does it? The Law teaches also, but what it teaches is sin and death. The righteousness of God is not found in the Law, but in the love He demonstrated in sending Jesus into the world that the world might be saved. If righteousness is of the Law, then Jesus died in vain. The same is true of scripture. If righteousness is of scripture, then Jesus died in vain. He need not have come but to fulfill prophecy, and all could be saved through faith in scripture.

I was devastated, destroyed and utterly laid low when I learned of the truth I share with you here. I believed exactly as you do now. And it was made clear to me that I was not being shown these things for myself, bit for those who believe like you, like I did before. And it was made clear that I would not be believed by very many.

Both things have proven to be true. I am a very poor servant, and I do not do a good job of presenting the truth of His grace and the possibility of fellowship with the Father through Jesus, and the change that comes about in our very nature as we do fellowship with Him. I still try.

 

[Red33]

They are assertions when you are only repeating what is written in scripture. Scripture is the basis of your faith and your relationship with God. At one time, many years ago, it was the basis of my faith also. It is not the basis of my faith any more. God is the basis of my faith.

Here is a truth for you, which you will not accept, (I fear to your destruction.) faith based in and upon scripture will not save you. You can believe scripture in all that it says, and if you do not develops a relationship with the Father through Jesus, not only has your faith not saved you, but it has made you even more deceived than if you had never read or heard a word of scripture at all.

How can this be?

Simply because one replaces true fellowship with the Father and the Son and the Spirit with religious belief, traditions, and observances.

You believe that scripture teaches, but does it? The Law teaches also, but what it teaches is sin and death. The righteousness of God is not found in the Law, but in the love He demonstrated in sending Jesus into the world that the world might be saved. If righteousness is of the Law, then Jesus died in vain. The same is true of scripture. If righteousness is of scripture, then Jesus died in vain. He need not have come but to fulfill prophecy, and all could be saved through faith in scripture.

I was devastated, destroyed and utterly laid low when I learned of the truth I share with you here. I believed exactly as you do now. And it was made clear to me that I was not being shown these things for myself, bit for those who believe like you, like I did before. And it was made clear that I would not be believed by very many.

Both things have proven to be true. I am a very poor servant, and I do not do a good job of presenting the truth of His grace and the possibility of fellowship with the Father through Jesus, and the change that comes about in our very nature as we do fellowship with Him. I still try.

Your words are empty and vain and have nothing to do with what we have been given through grace and the scriptures. Paul considered Timothy as a son and wrote this to him in his second letter...

2Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You do not agree with what Paul wrote to Timothy and do not lie any further and say that you do agree. You have been at this campaign for a couple of years on this site (according to your profile) and you have convinced no one but yourself and perhaps a few who are deluded through their own conceit or the craftiness of your words. You can use the name of Christ and the Spirit all you want, but you do not esteem the word of God nor do you recognize the power and inspiration of the written word in the believer's heart. The word of God will be the final judge and authority of all that we say and do (Jn 12:48) and will never pass away (Mt 24:35) and you fear for my destruction?

 

[superdave5221]

VW, I would love to ask you a question. Why do you suppose that those children born in Saudi Arabia are likely to grow up as Muslims? Or why is it that children born in India are likely to grow up as Hindu's? Or why is it likely that children born in China are likely to grow up as Atheists?

Is it because the people in those countries lack access to God's Holy Scriptures, or is it because they lack access to Holy Spirit?

Now, I would like to think that Holy Spirit is not limited by national borders, but with the way that your mind works, I have to ask.

I have to ask also why missionaries and Christian converts in those countries risk their lives smuggling bibles into their countries? Why is Satan so opposed to bibles? Is it the same reason that you are opposed, or is there something else?

 

[VW]

Your words are empty and vain and have nothing to do with what we have been given through grace and the scriptures. Paul considered Timothy as a son and wrote this to him in his second letter...

2Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You do not agree with what Paul wrote to Timothy and do not lie any further and say that you do agree. You have been at this campaign for a couple of years on this site (according to your profile) and you have convinced no one but yourself and perhaps a few who are deluded through their own conceit or the craftiness of your words. You can use the name of Christ and the Spirit all you want, but you do not esteem the word of God nor do you recognize the power and inspiration of the written word in the believer's heart. The word of God will be the final judge and authority of all that we say and do (Jn 12:48) and will never pass away (Mt 24:35) and you fear for my destruction?

Why do you call me a liar? Is that not rather personal?

Do you suppose that you are Timothy, called of God to become whatever he became?

And where did I disagree? I said just as Paul said, that scripture could make one wise unto salvation which is by faith in Jesus Christ!!!!!I recognize the power of the Holy Spirit, who regenerates us and recreates us in the image of Jesus Christ. The written word cannot do that, and to say that it does is a falsehood, leading to destruction. And so I fear for you.

 

[VW]

VW, I would love to ask you a question. Why do you suppose that those children born in Saudi Arabia are likely to grow up as Muslims? Or why is it that children born in India are likely to grow up as Hindu's? Or why is it likely that children born in China are likely to grow up as Atheists?

Is it because the people in those countries lack access to God's Holy Scriptures, or is it because they lack access to Holy Spirit?

Now, I would like to think that Holy Spirit is not limited by national borders, but with the way that your mind works, I have to ask.

I have to ask also why missionaries and Christian converts in those countries risk their lives smuggling bibles into their countries? Why is Satan so opposed to bibles? Is it the same reason that you are opposed, or is there something else?

And do you suppose that the way one is brought up, raised, trained religiously, has anything to do with salvation?

Satan opposes bibles, (not as much now as he has in the past, because of our worship of scripture,) because it is the written word of God. But do you suppose along with Red that scripture saves, that you have eternal life because of scripture? If so, I fear for you also.

Access to the Holy Spirit comes not from scripture, but by the grace of God. And I did not gain access to the Holy Spirit until God drew near to me and destroyed my faith in scripture to create in me faith in Him, because no one who was filled with the Holy Spirit was around to teach me, to speak the words of life to me in His power!!!

 

[VW]

We have access BY FAITH to the Father through the Son who rent the veil from top to bottom (Mt 27:51), and the result of that for those that believe upon the Son is written in (Heb 10:19-23)...

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Jesus Christ has given us access to the holy place (Heb 9:12), the holiest (Heb 10:19) through His blood that was sprinkled on the mercy seat by the high priest, Christ (Rom 3:25, 1Jn 2:2, 4:10, Heb 9:1-28). There is no way that we could come to the Father except through the blood and body of Christ, that was shed and offered once and for all (Heb 7:27, 10:10) that was used to consecrate a new and living way for us. We have unfettered access to the Father and that access can never be taken from the believer because that access came through the blood of Christ. The veil is gone and we can freely approach the Father by faith through the blood and body of Christ for fellowship and communion. Without the blood and body of Christ there would be no access by one Spirit to the Father (Eph 2:18).

I forgot to ask you in reply to this: have you entered into the veil, into the holy place, not just in your imagination, but in fact in your spirit? You speak of the promise, but have you been there?

What did you see?

What did you hear?

How did it change you?

This is the true power of God, and this is where we are changed into His image from glory to glory.

 

[VW]

Oh yeah, the veil is not gone, this is extra-biblical. The veil is still there, it is just torn, from top to bottom. Jesus' flesh is still here, but it is changed from what it was, and His flesh was and still is the veil. His flesh was torn.

You really are blind to the truth.

 

[superdave5221]

And do you suppose that the way one is brought up, raised, trained religiously, has anything to do with salvation?

Satan opposes bibles, (not as much now as he has in the past, because of our worship of scripture,) because it is the written word of God. But do you suppose along with Red that scripture saves, that you have eternal life because of scripture? If so, I fear for you also.

Access to the Holy Spirit comes not from scripture, but by the grace of God. And I did not gain access to the Holy Spirit until God drew near to me and destroyed my faith in scripture to create in me faith in Him, because no one who was filled with the Holy Spirit was around to teach me, to speak the words of life to me in His power!!!

I am sorry that you have limited the power of the scriptures and Holy Spirit. For I also did not have anyone around me with Holy Spirit, but I received Him by studying the scriptures. And I have known many others who also have found Jesus in this manner. My question, which you did not answer, is why do the Christian converts risk their lives to smuggle bibles, if all that is needed is Holy Spirit? You could save a lot of lives by getting them to accept your "inspired" view on evangelicalism. Of course I am being sarcastic. For your opposition to scriptures is a stumbling block to conversion. Instead, your views epitomize Satan's opposition to God's Word.

 

[Scotth1960]

The following is from Christian Theology, Second Edition, by Millard J. Erickson, Baker Academic, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1998, p. 367.

The doctrine of the Trinity is a crucial ingredient of our faith. Each of the three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is to be worshiped, as is the Triune God. And keeping in mind their distinctive work, it is appropriate to direct prayers of thanks, and petition to each of the members of the Trinity, as well as to all of them collectively. Furthermore, the perfect love and unity within the Godhead model for us the oneness and affection that should characterize our relationship within the body of Christ. [End of quote]

Now consider the following:

Exodus 34: 14 -for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God -

Matthew 4: 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan ! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.' " 11 Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

Should we worship and pray to Jesus and Holy Spirit if they are not God? Would this not be idolatry?


I have included your beloved KJV below for the traditionalists as well as the NASB, so you cannot malign my translation.

Hebrews 1: 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith , And let all the angels of God worship him. (KJV)

Hebrews 1: 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"? 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP (NASB)

It appears that God Himself will order the angels to worship Jesus. How can this be, if Jesus is not God?

Is it Christian to profess to worship the Father, as Judaism does profess, without worshipping Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit? No. Jesus Christ said to the Pharisees that they do not know God the Father, because they do not know Him, Jesus Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[VW]

I am sorry that you have limited the power of the scriptures and Holy Spirit. For I also did not have anyone around me with Holy Spirit, but I received Him by studying the scriptures. And I have known many others who also have found Jesus in this manner. My question, which you did not answer, is why do the Christian converts risk their lives to smuggle bibles, if all that is needed is Holy Spirit? You could save a lot of lives by getting them to accept your "inspired" view on evangelicalism. Of course I am being sarcastic. For your opposition to scriptures is a stumbling block to conversion. Instead, your views epitomize Satan's opposition to God's Word.

How do you think that I am opposed to scripture?#$%!@^

I am not now, nor have I ever been opposed to scripture, in any way.

Let me share a secret about me with you. I started reading scripture again after God woke me up, so to speak. I started with the book He wanted me to read, which happened to be Lamentations. I cried for 6 months. (If you read and understand Lamentations, you will know why I cried.) I then was lead to read all of the prophets, all the time in deep prayer. I understood very little of what I read, but I saw the heart of God, as He deals with a people who are missing Him, because they are too human, too hide bound, too afraid to approach Him to know Him and receive His love.

Then, I was lead to read Paul again, followed by the gospels, then to the life of Moses and David and John the apostle. This took three years, reading every night for 6 to 8 hours each night. I wore out 3 bibles during this time.

What I am opposed to is the belief that salvation is contained in scripture, that eternal life is from scripture, that scripture is the final authority. God is the final authority, and knowing Him is eternal life. This is according to scripture.

In reality, I believe that we cannot use scripture, any more than we can use the Holy Spirit, or Jesus, or the Father. That if we are using scripture, we are moving against God.

I have come to believe that I am incapable of using any of the gifts of God in a righteous manner. I know in myself that in me dwells no good thing, and if I am going to act in a righteous manner, it will be because of God working through me. This too is according to scripture.

But see, even if it is according to scripture, and I do the things written of in scripture, without doing them in the power of God, then can I call it righteous? No. Again, according to scripture, I love the light, which light is Jesus, and I come to the light to have my deeds be exposed as having been wrought in God. There is no higher calling for the servant of God.

So, how can you say that I am against scripture? I am against men using scripture, or any other thing which is from God, in their own power. I fear that your prejudice has blinded your eyes to what I am saying.

And just so you know, the stance I have taken in Jesus Christ is not easy, is much harder than you can imagine. Just think of giving up all the security and comfort and peace of a church family for something so esoteric as fellowship with the Spirit, and through the Spirit, with whomever the Spirit brings to you. And then, think about how you will be looked at by those who knew you in the church, and their attempts to convince you that God is lying to you, and that only they hold the truth. And then loose all of your friends, because of the testimony of Jesus Christ, with whom you have been crucified. Oh yeah, and then when you get permission, leading, to share these things on the internet, you come under attack as being a satan inspired destroyer of the faith.

Lots of fun. Wonder why I continue?

In His love,
vic

 

[Red33]

Oh yeah, the veil is not gone, this is extra-biblical. The veil is still there, it is just torn, from top to bottom. Jesus' flesh is still here, but it is changed from what it was, and His flesh was and still is the veil. His flesh was torn.

You really are blind to the truth.

The thing is, God will let you live with your own understanding and the consequences of your own decisions based on that understanding. I have nothing to do with that. Grace is much more than what you believe it to be. It is not an attribute of God but it what we need in order to grow because we have a weak and frail humanity. Grace can only be accessed by faith and when sin abounds grace doth much more abound. Every believer has access to this grace because of the blood of Christ. We can enter into the holy place through Christ and have access to the Father through the blood. Every believer, no matter where they are at in their relationship with God, can have access by faith and no one can take that away from the believer because Jesus Christ has consecrated that for them. There are no classes to the believer-priesthood or special privileges other than having access to the Father and all that He has given to us through His Son. We as a believer have unlimited and unfettered access at any time and without any conditions, except for one, FAITH.

 

[VW]

The thing is, God will let you live with your own understanding and the consequences of your own decisions based on that understanding. I have nothing to do with that. Grace is much more than what you believe it to be. It is not an attribute of God but it what we need in order to grow because we have a weak and frail humanity. Grace can only be accessed by faith and when sin abounds grace doth much more abound. Every believer has access to this grace because of the blood of Christ. We can enter into the holy place through Christ and have access to the Father through the blood. Every believer, no matter where they are at in their relationship with God, can have access by faith and no one can take that away from the believer because Jesus Christ has consecrated that for them. There are no classes to the believer-priesthood or special privileges other than having access to the Father and all that He has given to us through His Son. We as a believer have unlimited and unfettered access at any time and without any conditions, except for one, FAITH.

Okay, so by faith, when was the last time you entered within the veil, into the most holy place? What did you see? How did you feel? What was said, if anything? What changes happened within you?

It is one thing to know about a place, and quite another to go to that place, especially when that place is where the living God resides.

I die more each time I go there, to become alive in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Second hand testimony is worthless.

 

[zackabba]

Look at Revelation 4-5. Who are worshipped? The Lamb and God the Father.

So, yes.

 

[Scotth1960]

Look at Revelation 4-5. Who are worshipped? The Lamb and God the Father.

So, yes.

Partly right. The Lamb and the Father are mentioned, and the Spirit is mentioned in Revelation as well. There may not be a specific verse that indicates the Holy Spirit was worshiped. But surely the Church in heaven and on earth worships Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three in one. And in the end of Revelation, "The Spirit and the Bride say, Come!" Come, Lord Jesus. The Spirit bids the Church to pray for the return of Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[zackabba]

Partly right. The Lamb and the Father are mentioned, and the Spirit is mentioned in Revelation as well. There may not be a specific verse that indicates the Holy Spirit was worshiped. But surely the Church in heaven and on earth worships Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three in one. And in the end of Revelation, "The Spirit and the Bride say, Come!" Come, Lord Jesus. The Spirit bids the Church to pray for the return of Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Oh, of course He's worshipped (to be worshipped).

Since the Holy Spirit is the one true God, He is to be worshipped. Only God is to be worshipped. Psalm 48:1, Psalm 18:3.


(Just to let all know, I had this same question "Is Jesus to be worshipped as a person?"

Well, Jesus never declined worship, did He? (John 20:28 for one example).







(However, about the Spirit, I think He Himself is the one who gets us to worship the Son, thus worshipping the Father. We should thank Him, God, for this.)

 

[mpaper345]

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,fully God and fully man.God manifest in the flesh means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.

While on earth the man Christ Jesus had to do everything a man has to do to be right with God,including praying to the Father for the disciples while on earth,for Him to be the intercessor for the world.

23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God(John 16).


Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to not ask Him anything,but only ask the Father and He will dom it,and He will not pray to the Father,but the saints pray to the Father,which means that the man Christ Jesus will not pray to the Father as He did while on earth,but the saints pray to the Father.


That means the saints only ask the Father,and only pray to the Father and no one else,as Jesus told the disciples.


12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it(John 14:12-14).


Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven only ask the Father and no one else,but in theses scriptures Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to ask Him and He will do it.


If Jesus said only ask the Father and no one else,then why did Jesus say ask Him and He will do it.


That means not only is Jesus God but He must also be our Father,which would mean there is only one God,and God manifest in the flesh must mean the Father manifest in the flesh,which the Father is a Holy Spirit who caused the conception of Jesus,and the Son is the man Christ Jesus and not a second person of a trinity,and Jesus must be the name of the Father,which the Father said one day He would reveal His new name to the Jews and speak to them(Isaiah 52 :6),and Jesus came in the name of the Father(John 5:43),and the Son inherited the name from the Father(Hebrews 1:4),and Jesus is the visible manifestation of the Father,which Jesus said if you have seen Me then you have seen the Father.


6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).

This scripture states that the Son shall be called the everlasting Father,and there is only one deity the Father.

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all(Ephesians 4:4).

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him(! Corinthians 8:6).

To some people there is a trinity,but to those that know the truth there is one God,the Father,and one visible manifestation of the Father to the world,the Lord Jesus,in which all creation hinges on God coming in flesh,and without God coming in flesh,God would of not created anything that He created(John 1:3).

 

[zackabba]

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,fully God and fully man.

Correct.

God manifest in the flesh means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.

I agree, God cannot and will not be separated, and never has been.

While on earth the man Christ Jesus had to do everything a man has to do to be right with God,including praying to the Father for the disciples while on earth,for Him to be the intercessor for the world.

So, He was praying to Himself? (John 17)

23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God(John 16).

"In the beginning (eternally) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)


Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to not ask Him anything,but only ask the Father in Jesus's name and He will do it,and He will not pray to the Father,but the saints pray to the Father,which means that the man Christ Jesus will not pray to the Father as He did while on earth,but the saints pray to the Father.


That means the saints only ask the Father in the name of Christ,and only pray to the Father and no one else,as Jesus told the disciples.


12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it(John 14:12-14).

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” (John 14:13-21)



Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven only ask the Father and no one else, but in theses scriptures Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to ask Him and He will do it.


If Jesus said only ask the Father and no one else,then why did Jesus say ask Him and He will do it.

Because He is God.


That means not only is Jesus God but He must also be our Father,which would mean there is only one God,and God manifest in the flesh must mean the Father manifest in the flesh,which the Father is a Holy Spirit who caused the conception of Jesus,

1. Jesus is clearly not the Father as seen in John 17.

2. You are right, there is only ONE true God, but in three persons.

3. If this was true, then why does it not say the Father had caused Jesus to form in the womb of Mary (Matthew 1:18) instead of the Holy Spirit, which it does say?
And why would the Father need to send Himself to the world? (The Spirit was sent by the Father)




and the Son is the man Christ Jesus and not a second person of a trinity,and Jesus must be the name (in MY name) of the Father,which the Father said one day He would reveal His new name to the Jews and speak to them(Isaiah 52 :6),and Jesus came in the name of the Father(John 5:43),and the Son inherited the name from the Father(Hebrews 1:4, He also says, (concerning His Son)
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

),and Jesus is the visible manifestation of the Father,which Jesus said if you have seen Me then you have seen the Father.

So people have seen God (the Father)? No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. (John 6:46)



6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).

This scripture states that the Son shall be called the everlasting Father,and there is only one deity the Father.

You mean "Father of eternity," or "Father of time?"

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all(Ephesians 4:4).

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him(! Corinthians 8:6).

To some people there is a trinity,but to those that know the truth there is one God,the Father,and one visible manifestation of the Father to the world,the Lord Jesus,in which all creation hinges on God coming in flesh,and without God coming in flesh,God would of not created anything that He created(John 1:3).

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[VW]

Partly right. The Lamb and the Father are mentioned, and the Spirit is mentioned in Revelation as well. There may not be a specific verse that indicates the Holy Spirit was worshiped. But surely the Church in heaven and on earth worships Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three in one. And in the end of Revelation, "The Spirit and the Bride say, Come!" Come, Lord Jesus. The Spirit bids the Church to pray for the return of Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Isn't it interesting that the Holy Spirit and the bride are so closely identified with each other. I believe that this relationship is much deeper and much more important than is currently taught or commonly believed to be.

 

[Heremon]

Isn't it interesting that the Holy Spirit and the bride are so closely identified with each other. I believe that this relationship is much deeper and much more important than is currently taught or commonly believed to be.

Really??? Well, I guess that I'm just an overflowing bowl of curiosity tonight, but I must know VW....why do you believe that this relationship is more deeper or important than is currently being taught?