Is it possible for a true Christian to one day no longer believe in God?
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See, that's where you're misunderstanding things. We don't believe it was all imagined or made up. Our faith was incredibly real. Regardless of if God exists or not, my faith in Him when I was a Christian was real. I believed in Jesus. I loved Jesus. I considered Him my best friend. These were things I held to be true for 15 years of my life (from age 7 to 22). My deconversion was a painful two year process. It didn't happen overnight. I didn't want to let go of my faith and I battled and battled until I finally reached a point where the only reason I was still believing was because I wanted to believe, not because I actually did believe. When I realized that I truly no longer believed in God or Jesus, it felt like my heart got ripped out, my whole worldview was shattered.
A little online searching and you will find hundreds of people just like myself. Former pastors and missionaries, pastors kids and Christian college students, people who will claim to have had a genuine relationship with Christ for many years, but now no longer believe. The church doesn't talk about this group of people. They pretend they don't exist or they simply ignore them. It actually was very isolating because when I was going through it, I felt like I was the only person this was happening to.
But no matter what I say, no matter what evidence I can try to give to show you that genuine ex-Christians exist, you can always just say, "well, you were never real Christians because true Christians don't deconvert."
This is called the No True Scotsman fallacy, which occurs when someone changes the definition of a word to make a claim true by default or a term is defined biasedly to allow easier use of the first form. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them, disregarding any evidence showing that people with these undesirable characteristics are or were ever part of the group.
A little online searching and you will find hundreds of people just like myself. Former pastors and missionaries, pastors kids and Christian college students, people who will claim to have had a genuine relationship with Christ for many years, but now no longer believe. The church doesn't talk about this group of people. They pretend they don't exist or they simply ignore them. It actually was very isolating because when I was going through it, I felt like I was the only person this was happening to.
But no matter what I say, no matter what evidence I can try to give to show you that genuine ex-Christians exist, you can always just say, "well, you were never real Christians because true Christians don't deconvert."
This is called the No True Scotsman fallacy, which occurs when someone changes the definition of a word to make a claim true by default or a term is defined biasedly to allow easier use of the first form. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them, disregarding any evidence showing that people with these undesirable characteristics are or were ever part of the group.
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I called out to Jesus for salvation at 13.. and believe I was saved then.
at 21 for about 4 years I got into Mysticism/New Age beliefs. There was a point where I no longer believed in Jesus.
If salvation is a free gift and eternal, then I was still saved when I got into those beliefs.
Again- the teaching that a saved person or as the calvinist puts it-- a 'saint' WILL persevere till the end.. is taking scripture out of context.
'He who endureth to the end will be saved' is not referring to eternal salvation. That quote is surrounded by passages that talk of escape and deliverance from harsh times/trials.. not people receiving eternal salvation.
I don't agree with the teaching of 'never saved in the first place' here..
The OP is saying it was a 'true christian'- truly converted to begin with.
To say a converted person won't fall away.. is like a works based salvation.
Of course to be 'christian'-- to actually be 'a follower of Christ' is different than just being converted or saved.
A saved person.. is immature.. a babe in Christ. They have been converted by they won't be 'Christ-like' yet. That takes time.
They will endure to the end.. if they rely on Christ.. but just because some christians don't.. doesn't mean they were never saved in the first place!
The Holy Spirit WILL rebuke, admonish and correct someone He has indwelled. But this also doesn't mean they will never fall away into bad sin.
Every single person reading this, could in the next day or hour or minutes.. just walk straight out the door and do something completely contrary to God's Will. God might stop us.. but that is not a guarantee.
A saved person WILL do good works? No.. a saved person MAY if they rely on the Holy Spirit.
They will have fruit from being converted initially of course, but this does not mean they will 'endure to the end'
at 21 for about 4 years I got into Mysticism/New Age beliefs. There was a point where I no longer believed in Jesus.
If salvation is a free gift and eternal, then I was still saved when I got into those beliefs.
Again- the teaching that a saved person or as the calvinist puts it-- a 'saint' WILL persevere till the end.. is taking scripture out of context.
'He who endureth to the end will be saved' is not referring to eternal salvation. That quote is surrounded by passages that talk of escape and deliverance from harsh times/trials.. not people receiving eternal salvation.
I don't agree with the teaching of 'never saved in the first place' here..
The OP is saying it was a 'true christian'- truly converted to begin with.
To say a converted person won't fall away.. is like a works based salvation.
Of course to be 'christian'-- to actually be 'a follower of Christ' is different than just being converted or saved.
A saved person.. is immature.. a babe in Christ. They have been converted by they won't be 'Christ-like' yet. That takes time.
They will endure to the end.. if they rely on Christ.. but just because some christians don't.. doesn't mean they were never saved in the first place!
The Holy Spirit WILL rebuke, admonish and correct someone He has indwelled. But this also doesn't mean they will never fall away into bad sin.
Every single person reading this, could in the next day or hour or minutes.. just walk straight out the door and do something completely contrary to God's Will. God might stop us.. but that is not a guarantee.
A saved person WILL do good works? No.. a saved person MAY if they rely on the Holy Spirit.
They will have fruit from being converted initially of course, but this does not mean they will 'endure to the end'
another verse
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge
of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome,
the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned
to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
[have] tasted of the heavenly gift,
[where made] partakers of the Holy Ghost
the powers of the world to come
[If ]they shall fall away
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it?
Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it?
Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted?
it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
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I'll take your first quote from Peter...but in it's fuller context and I'll bold who is really spoken about...it is not true Christians...
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
Just because someone knows the law that doesn't make them a true Christian. By what I bolded, it is obvious these were deceivers and deceived all along and never a Christian.
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
Just because someone knows the law that doesn't make them a true Christian. By what I bolded, it is obvious these were deceivers and deceived all along and never a Christian.
I
What's so unclear to you?
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin, But a fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26,27
(verse 29)......Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
No, I was not misunderstanding things to refer to specific people, whose experiences I encapsulated earlier. No doubt your experiences have some unique elements to them that make them different than the ones I was talking about, even if there are also many shared similarities.
You are inserting yourself again...
There is no need for you to assume all manner of things about me and present them as fact when you do not know me. I simply gave the Scripture that the OP asked for. There are many people who go to church regularly who are lost. Religious but lost. I am not suggesting you were one of them. It is just a fact. I think I may have seen your name on a few posts recently. I have only been here for just over four weeks, myself. May I ask you something? Please know that I do so with compassion for your plight of feeling your heart being ripped out to discover you no longer believed. I am wondering what drew you away, and what church you were going to. Would you feel comfortable sharing that with us?
You are inserting yourself again...
There is no need for you to assume all manner of things about me and present them as fact when you do not know me. I simply gave the Scripture that the OP asked for. There are many people who go to church regularly who are lost. Religious but lost. I am not suggesting you were one of them. It is just a fact. I think I may have seen your name on a few posts recently. I have only been here for just over four weeks, myself. May I ask you something? Please know that I do so with compassion for your plight of feeling your heart being ripped out to discover you no longer believed. I am wondering what drew you away, and what church you were going to. Would you feel comfortable sharing that with us?
Magenta -
I guess I read your post as speaking generally on the issue rather than more specifically. In return I responded more generally, not necessarily at you only but at people in general who believe I don't exist. (I am the OP of this topic by the way.)
I frequent this board every so often, sticking around for a few days, then I leave for a few months or so. I noticed you were a new user I hadn't recognized in the past (I see a lot of the same faces on here it seems).
Anyways, I agree there are people who claim to be ex-Christians who were never really saved to begin with. When I was a Christian I loved debating, and I ran across this guy who claimed to be an ex-Christian (ironically, at the time, I believed there was no such thing as true ex-Christians). He came from a Catholic family, although they never went to church except for major holidays. He never really prayed or thought about God in his day to day life. Yet he considered himself ex-Christian because he was born into a Catholic family but is now an atheist. Obviously, he was never a true genuine Christian in the first place. So I agree that not every claim is true.
Some time later, I was debating another atheist who was attending a Christian university. I asked him why he was attending a Christian university if he's an atheist. He said he wasn't an atheist when he first enrolled. He explained he was the son of a Baptist pastor and began telling me his testimony, explaining when he accepted Christ and what his Christian walk was like. He used language that I only really heard other Christians use. This guy definitely seemed different from others claiming to be ex-Christians. After talking with him many times after that, I had to accept the undeniable truth staring me straight in the face, here is a person who seemingly truly believed in Christ, who believed they had a real relationship with God, who now no longer believes. I just never knew people like that actually existed.
As far as my deconversion, it was not just one thing but several different things that led to me losing my faith. Imagine our beliefs are like pillars. Simple beliefs are small pillars that can be broken easily. "There is an apple in my refrigerator" is a simple belief. All you have to do is open the refrigerator and see if there is an apple. If there is no apple, that pillar of belief falls pretty easily. However, complex, or mega-beliefs, like "I believe that Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior" are held up by many pillars (smaller beliefs), so that if one particular belief comes under attack, or even crumbles, the other beliefs still hold up the mega-belief. It's only when a significant amount of these smaller beliefs that form the mega-belief get countered or corrupted that the mega-belief begins to waver and potentially crumble. What makes up these smaller beliefs? Some examples are faith, personal relationship, logical arguments, other Christians, personal experiences, prayer, morality, creation, the Bible, etc. It's weird thinking of something spiritual like belief in such a psychological way, but I think it's the best way to explain how it was not just one thing but many things that led to my deconversion. Needless to say this post is long enough, and it would take an equally long post to explain in detail the reasons behind my deconversion, so I will stop short of giving specifics at the moment and leave you with this general understanding.
To answer your last question, I was raised Baptist, but around 13 or 14 we started attending nondenominational churches, but they pretty much mirror Baptists in the majority of their theology. I also went to a Christian middle school/high school.
I guess I read your post as speaking generally on the issue rather than more specifically. In return I responded more generally, not necessarily at you only but at people in general who believe I don't exist. (I am the OP of this topic by the way.)
I frequent this board every so often, sticking around for a few days, then I leave for a few months or so. I noticed you were a new user I hadn't recognized in the past (I see a lot of the same faces on here it seems).
Anyways, I agree there are people who claim to be ex-Christians who were never really saved to begin with. When I was a Christian I loved debating, and I ran across this guy who claimed to be an ex-Christian (ironically, at the time, I believed there was no such thing as true ex-Christians). He came from a Catholic family, although they never went to church except for major holidays. He never really prayed or thought about God in his day to day life. Yet he considered himself ex-Christian because he was born into a Catholic family but is now an atheist. Obviously, he was never a true genuine Christian in the first place. So I agree that not every claim is true.
Some time later, I was debating another atheist who was attending a Christian university. I asked him why he was attending a Christian university if he's an atheist. He said he wasn't an atheist when he first enrolled. He explained he was the son of a Baptist pastor and began telling me his testimony, explaining when he accepted Christ and what his Christian walk was like. He used language that I only really heard other Christians use. This guy definitely seemed different from others claiming to be ex-Christians. After talking with him many times after that, I had to accept the undeniable truth staring me straight in the face, here is a person who seemingly truly believed in Christ, who believed they had a real relationship with God, who now no longer believes. I just never knew people like that actually existed.
As far as my deconversion, it was not just one thing but several different things that led to me losing my faith. Imagine our beliefs are like pillars. Simple beliefs are small pillars that can be broken easily. "There is an apple in my refrigerator" is a simple belief. All you have to do is open the refrigerator and see if there is an apple. If there is no apple, that pillar of belief falls pretty easily. However, complex, or mega-beliefs, like "I believe that Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior" are held up by many pillars (smaller beliefs), so that if one particular belief comes under attack, or even crumbles, the other beliefs still hold up the mega-belief. It's only when a significant amount of these smaller beliefs that form the mega-belief get countered or corrupted that the mega-belief begins to waver and potentially crumble. What makes up these smaller beliefs? Some examples are faith, personal relationship, logical arguments, other Christians, personal experiences, prayer, morality, creation, the Bible, etc. It's weird thinking of something spiritual like belief in such a psychological way, but I think it's the best way to explain how it was not just one thing but many things that led to my deconversion. Needless to say this post is long enough, and it would take an equally long post to explain in detail the reasons behind my deconversion, so I will stop short of giving specifics at the moment and leave you with this general understanding.
To answer your last question, I was raised Baptist, but around 13 or 14 we started attending nondenominational churches, but they pretty much mirror Baptists in the majority of their theology. I also went to a Christian middle school/high school.
O
FALSE TEACHERS MAKE A FALSE FORTRESS...
11PETER 2:18-19-20-21.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, wantonness,
those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption:
for whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of
the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse
with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the Way of Righteousness, than, after they have known,
to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them.
as it is written,
Ez.18:24.
But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all
the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live?
All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the un-faithfulness
of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
Yet you say, the way of the Lord is not fair.......
11PETER 2:18-19-20-21.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, wantonness,
those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption:
for whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of
the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse
with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the Way of Righteousness, than, after they have known,
to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them.
as it is written,
Ez.18:24.
But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all
the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live?
All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the un-faithfulness
of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
Yet you say, the way of the Lord is not fair.......
Salvation is described as a new birth. A Spiritual birth, a quickening on the Holy Spirit followed by a sealing of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
A genuine born again blood washed Christian can no more not believe in God or really deny God than a butterfly can once again become a caterpillar.
The salvation that God works through His grace is so profound a change that it cannot be denied and cannot be turned away from. I am not only saved from eternal condemnation but I am made a heir to the kingdom of God. I have a place with my King, my Savior in His kingdom for all of eternity.
Shall I then prefer the eternal darkness of the lake of fire?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
A genuine born again blood washed Christian can no more not believe in God or really deny God than a butterfly can once again become a caterpillar.
The salvation that God works through His grace is so profound a change that it cannot be denied and cannot be turned away from. I am not only saved from eternal condemnation but I am made a heir to the kingdom of God. I have a place with my King, my Savior in His kingdom for all of eternity.
Shall I then prefer the eternal darkness of the lake of fire?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
A true believer has been born again; how are they unborn?
********************
Ephesians 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
A true believer's position is seated with Christ, how are they kicked out?
********************
John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
A true believer has passed from death to life, somehow they get cast into outer darkness?
A true believer has been born again; how are they unborn?
********************
Ephesians 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
A true believer's position is seated with Christ, how are they kicked out?
********************
John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
A true believer has passed from death to life, somehow they get cast into outer darkness?
Surely I'm not the only non-Christian who lurks these forums on occasion? Christianity was a big part of my life for so long, it's not so easy to let go. Sometimes when I'm confronted with a question or tidbit of info that I'd be interested in hearing responses from Christians, I'll post it here. And not every post I make here is hostile or anti-God. Plus, if Christianity is true, then you should have nothing to shy away from in regard to friendly discourse.