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It is the OT that shows how God principles work out in groups of people, when prophets helped interpret for us. The NT does not show long years of history to explain God principles. A study of OT brings out that God simply allows those who are dead spiritually live as they see fit, God blesses and also punishes those in His family. Often he uses people outside His family.
Those who live under God's direction give charity to help the weak. When this has been carried so far that all money and assets are owned by the community and distributed equally, it has never worked. The book of Acts shows us a group that tried. Few nations have lived by God's plan of helping others. The Jews were quite successful at it during the middle ages, it was the only way they could survive.
I would agree that to a certain point, the strong are the ones who achieve. My husband worked in the homes of people in a Mennonite Colony in Montana so he could observe them. Nothing was privately owned. The strong did all the work and planning, the weak did as little as possible and were carried by the strong.
Those who live under God's direction give charity to help the weak. When this has been carried so far that all money and assets are owned by the community and distributed equally, it has never worked. The book of Acts shows us a group that tried. Few nations have lived by God's plan of helping others. The Jews were quite successful at it during the middle ages, it was the only way they could survive.
I would agree that to a certain point, the strong are the ones who achieve. My husband worked in the homes of people in a Mennonite Colony in Montana so he could observe them. Nothing was privately owned. The strong did all the work and planning, the weak did as little as possible and were carried by the strong.
R
The reason I'm asking this is because I have a social Darwinist world view, and I'm trying to reconcile it with Christianity. I don't (yet) call myself a Christian, because I got "the calling" recently and I'm trying to make sense of it.
I mean, of course the strong and able should help the misfortunate. But then I mean the misfortunate, like physically or mentally disabled people. Then we also have those poor people that are poor just because they are lazy and find ways to drain the system. Is it not Christian to treat them as sinners, because they are in reality thieves? Do they not deserve to be in the position they are in? An example would be the large number of third world immigrants coming to Sweden that refuse to work and are abusing our extensive welfare system.
And is 'competition' between groups so un-Christian? Like in a capitalist system for example. Do most of you find capitalism completely immoral and un-Christian?
Is there any way for me to reconcile my Darwinian philosophy with the teachings of Christ?
(Just to be clear: I am not in favor of unregulated capitalism. We should have laws in place that protect the environment, and protect people from being entirely pushed out of the system into poverty.)
I mean, of course the strong and able should help the misfortunate. But then I mean the misfortunate, like physically or mentally disabled people. Then we also have those poor people that are poor just because they are lazy and find ways to drain the system. Is it not Christian to treat them as sinners, because they are in reality thieves? Do they not deserve to be in the position they are in? An example would be the large number of third world immigrants coming to Sweden that refuse to work and are abusing our extensive welfare system.
And is 'competition' between groups so un-Christian? Like in a capitalist system for example. Do most of you find capitalism completely immoral and un-Christian?
Is there any way for me to reconcile my Darwinian philosophy with the teachings of Christ?
(Just to be clear: I am not in favor of unregulated capitalism. We should have laws in place that protect the environment, and protect people from being entirely pushed out of the system into poverty.)
A
Evolutionary theory goes all the way back to some of the first pre-Socratic Greek philosophers (e.g. Anaximander, Empedocles, etc...); however, Darwinian evolutionary theory was critical in influencing the development of Nazism and Marxism.
Socio-political theorists like Karl Marx, Emile Durkheim, Max Weber and a number of forebears, associates and successors employed Darwinian evolutionary theory within the context of atheistic reductive materialism to build societal models.
Their models were instrumental in the development and execution of 20th century Marxist Communism and Nazism which resulted in sweeping democide, genocide, persecution, historical destruction, etc...
There were radical political extremists, of course, before Darwin published his seminal work 'On the Origin of Species' in 1859; however, because Christian principles were deeply rooted in Western Civilization they were unable to persuade the masses to accept their ideologies.
Christianized Western Civilization is often accused of dampening scientific progress by non-Christians. Political conflicts between scientific theories and the Christian faith have arisen through the centuries but the level of conflict has often been exaggerated and Christianity's positive influence on scientific progress is seldom acknowledged by those making these claims.
The intellectual climate that gave rise to modern science (roughly three centuries ago) was decisively shaped by Christianity. Not only were most of the founding fathers of science themselves devout Christians (including Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, Boyle, and Pascal), but the Christian worldview provided a basis for modern science both to emerge and to flourish.
Christianity didn't have the problems many other worldviews had such as a cyclical approach to time, an astrological approach to the heavens, metaphysical views that either deified nature (animism) or denied it (idealism), etc...
It is for these and many other reasons that Western nations were able to block the most radical movements for centuries from creating the destruction they finally did create.
Darwin, however, opened the door to uncoupling Biblical morality from society ushering in a ‘scientific’ rationale for socio-political models built on state atheism which inspired radical political extremists to create new socio-political models based on state atheism while affecting hybred one's like Nazism which incorporated pagan and occultic elements as well and others besides.
The result was horrorific bloodshed and suffering and those atheistic socio-political models that despite the fall of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other regimes built on these socio-political models still negatively affect large numbers of people today in places like China, North Korea, etc... where they are maintained to one extent or another.
Social Darwinism is built on atheistic reductive materialism as the only real metaphysical worldview and it is for this reason that it is diametrically opposed to Christianity.
Christian sociology competes against social Darwinisim. To understand Christian socialism, simple primers are available like 'Sociology: A Christian Approach for Changing the World' and 'Total Truth Liberating Christianity from its cultural captivity.' Of course, a proper exegesis of the New Testament is instrumental.
Socio-political theorists like Karl Marx, Emile Durkheim, Max Weber and a number of forebears, associates and successors employed Darwinian evolutionary theory within the context of atheistic reductive materialism to build societal models.
Their models were instrumental in the development and execution of 20th century Marxist Communism and Nazism which resulted in sweeping democide, genocide, persecution, historical destruction, etc...
There were radical political extremists, of course, before Darwin published his seminal work 'On the Origin of Species' in 1859; however, because Christian principles were deeply rooted in Western Civilization they were unable to persuade the masses to accept their ideologies.
Christianized Western Civilization is often accused of dampening scientific progress by non-Christians. Political conflicts between scientific theories and the Christian faith have arisen through the centuries but the level of conflict has often been exaggerated and Christianity's positive influence on scientific progress is seldom acknowledged by those making these claims.
The intellectual climate that gave rise to modern science (roughly three centuries ago) was decisively shaped by Christianity. Not only were most of the founding fathers of science themselves devout Christians (including Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, Boyle, and Pascal), but the Christian worldview provided a basis for modern science both to emerge and to flourish.
Christianity didn't have the problems many other worldviews had such as a cyclical approach to time, an astrological approach to the heavens, metaphysical views that either deified nature (animism) or denied it (idealism), etc...
It is for these and many other reasons that Western nations were able to block the most radical movements for centuries from creating the destruction they finally did create.
Darwin, however, opened the door to uncoupling Biblical morality from society ushering in a ‘scientific’ rationale for socio-political models built on state atheism which inspired radical political extremists to create new socio-political models based on state atheism while affecting hybred one's like Nazism which incorporated pagan and occultic elements as well and others besides.
The result was horrorific bloodshed and suffering and those atheistic socio-political models that despite the fall of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other regimes built on these socio-political models still negatively affect large numbers of people today in places like China, North Korea, etc... where they are maintained to one extent or another.
Social Darwinism is built on atheistic reductive materialism as the only real metaphysical worldview and it is for this reason that it is diametrically opposed to Christianity.
Christian sociology competes against social Darwinisim. To understand Christian socialism, simple primers are available like 'Sociology: A Christian Approach for Changing the World' and 'Total Truth Liberating Christianity from its cultural captivity.' Of course, a proper exegesis of the New Testament is instrumental.
No there is no way to reconcile social Darwinism to being a Christian, whether there is truth in it or not. As a Christian, God comes first and how His spiritual realm operates, all else fits into this.
As a person who lives outside of God's family, you are caught up in the secular world, and all about it is most important to you. When you become a Christian, something happens to you that you have to experience to understand. Some call it receiving the Holy Spirit, some call it born again, but there is actually a part of you that is awakened and you see the part of our world that God controls. Survival of the fittest becomes a side issue, but front and center is what are the spiritual laws the earth operates on. You look at everything from a different perspective. You will still study environment, capitalism and poverty, but it will be looking at your study through different eyes.
As a person who lives outside of God's family, you are caught up in the secular world, and all about it is most important to you. When you become a Christian, something happens to you that you have to experience to understand. Some call it receiving the Holy Spirit, some call it born again, but there is actually a part of you that is awakened and you see the part of our world that God controls. Survival of the fittest becomes a side issue, but front and center is what are the spiritual laws the earth operates on. You look at everything from a different perspective. You will still study environment, capitalism and poverty, but it will be looking at your study through different eyes.
R
So what you're saying is that I have to completely reevaluate my own standpoints if I am to become a "true" Christian? Isn't the 'Christian right' in the United States often associated with having Social Darwinist standpoints?
And would you say that 'comptetition between humans over resources' is highly un-Christian? I understand that it is easier for a camel to pass through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but surely they must mean those who are born rich and not those who have been successful through life and earned their wealth.
And would you say that 'comptetition between humans over resources' is highly un-Christian? I understand that it is easier for a camel to pass through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but surely they must mean those who are born rich and not those who have been successful through life and earned their wealth.
John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
Luke 17:20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,
Matthew 21:43
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
Genesis 3:23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
Matthew 13:23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Luke 17:20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,
Matthew 21:43
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
Genesis 3:23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
Matthew 13:23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
To find God, my friend, it is best to find Him on His terms. That seems to be your major misstep. When He sounds the call, you have to be willing to allow Him to inform the totality of your life. As a human you will be wont to cling to flawed systems. I may cling to some as I head to my grave.
But that isn't right. That shouldn't be our goal.
The Bible draws a line between those who sin and those who need our help. Sometimes that line is fairly fine. You don't need Social Darwinism to inform your morals in this endeavor though.
If anything you should know Christianity would give you greater reason to help the unfortunate AND shun those who refuse to work than Social Darwinism would. This would not be a reason to turn to God of course.
No, Free Market economics and competition between merchants has been around far longer than Darwin's theories.
[/QUOTE]
Not really. Two opposing groups can share standpoints, but the value system behind them can be completely different as it is in this case. A member of the "Christian Right" generally wants fewer regulations on the day to day operation of private business because he wants to feed his family and believes socialism is theft. While they lend credence to competition yielding the best results, conservative Christians in the US would not do so because they hold to the notion of Spencer's Survival of the Fittest but because common sense, experience, and suspicion of government intervention inform them this way is best.
At the end of the day it has to do with the orientation of the heart. Rich men have a greater likelihood of not passing the test because they rely on their riches for satisfaction in this realm and they put emphasis on these worldly things and not the things of God.
A non-Christian born with money is every bit as damned as a non-Christian not born with money. One may be more commendable than the other, but at the end of the day, there is less of a chance of relying on God.
Christianity is not a set of dogmas or even a set of values that can be altered to suit the moment. It is, rather, a fundamental change in the heart. An acceptance of His ways over yours and His gift of salvation. These things will then inform your entire worldview and every judgement you make.
You may find yourself accepting certain measure social darwinism prescribes, but the reasoning, general direction, and ultimate goal will be very different indeed.
But that isn't right. That shouldn't be our goal.
The Bible draws a line between those who sin and those who need our help. Sometimes that line is fairly fine. You don't need Social Darwinism to inform your morals in this endeavor though.
If anything you should know Christianity would give you greater reason to help the unfortunate AND shun those who refuse to work than Social Darwinism would. This would not be a reason to turn to God of course.
No, Free Market economics and competition between merchants has been around far longer than Darwin's theories.
[/QUOTE]
Not really. Two opposing groups can share standpoints, but the value system behind them can be completely different as it is in this case. A member of the "Christian Right" generally wants fewer regulations on the day to day operation of private business because he wants to feed his family and believes socialism is theft. While they lend credence to competition yielding the best results, conservative Christians in the US would not do so because they hold to the notion of Spencer's Survival of the Fittest but because common sense, experience, and suspicion of government intervention inform them this way is best.
At the end of the day it has to do with the orientation of the heart. Rich men have a greater likelihood of not passing the test because they rely on their riches for satisfaction in this realm and they put emphasis on these worldly things and not the things of God.
A non-Christian born with money is every bit as damned as a non-Christian not born with money. One may be more commendable than the other, but at the end of the day, there is less of a chance of relying on God.
Christianity is not a set of dogmas or even a set of values that can be altered to suit the moment. It is, rather, a fundamental change in the heart. An acceptance of His ways over yours and His gift of salvation. These things will then inform your entire worldview and every judgement you make.
You may find yourself accepting certain measure social darwinism prescribes, but the reasoning, general direction, and ultimate goal will be very different indeed.
R
Be they "Darwin's" theories or not, I believe in evolution and the struggle for survival (survival of the fittest) and that it's not theory but fact that has existed in nature before Darwin. Darwin just explained to us how it all works, he didn't invent it. I see divinity in that struggle for victory (survival).
Do you know if 'free market economics' and 'competition' are supported in the Bible? Or are the teachings of Christ more inclined towards a kibbutz way of life?
Do you know if 'free market economics' and 'competition' are supported in the Bible? Or are the teachings of Christ more inclined towards a kibbutz way of life?
A
God established covenants with people to accomplish objectives throughout human history. Some were temporary and some were permanent. One of the covenants he established, for a time, was with the ancient nation of Israel. Biblical scholars refer to it as the old covenant and it accomplished a specific set of objectives. But, the old covenant always pointed forward to a much better new covenant beyond itself. The new covenant was established with Christ fulfilling the old. We live under the new covenant today and no longer the old. This causes confusion for some people because they don't understand covenant theology in a systematic way.
One criticism of skeptics today that is often directed against religion in general is that it encourages the formation and maintenance of in-groups and out-groups. But what about Jesus of Nazareth? A core theme of his teaching is that the love of God transcends and subsequently abrogates social divisions in the kingdom of God which is a spiritual kingdom all genuine Christians are reborn into.
In this kingdom, Jesus explicitly extends the Old Testament command to "love your neighbor" to "love your enemy" (Matthew 5:44). Far from endorsing out-group hostility, Jesus both commended and commanded an ethic of out-group affirmation.
While many Christians can certainly be accused of failing to live up to this demand, it exists right at the heart of the teachings of Christ and therefore the Christian ethic.
The Apostle Paul, of course, understood this and his writings reveal the fellowship of God’s people as a new covenant community in which Jew and Greek, Israelite and Gentile, become one new people (e.g. the "Church") in God's kingdom.
This is the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham at the beginning of redemptive history: “All peoples on earth will be blessed through you” (Gen 12:3; Gal 3:29).
So your assertion here that Christianity supports ethnic separatism today, under the new covenant, is actually a false one. That said, responsibility certainly is not and we all have a responsibility toward seeing our nations managed properly and not irresponsibly. Patriotism toward this end is a good thing in my view as long as it doesn't become a form of idol worship between God and yourself.
Furthermore, some cultures produce much better results in the world than other cultures. This is observable and scientifically measurable. Cultural relativism, of course, is a construct of reductive materialism (e.g. atheistic materialism) that posits a witch doctor selling curses has the same value to a society as a Christian pastor helping a parishioner forgive their neighbor.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how ridiculous this is. But, in reality, it is because the Biblical God actually exists that cultural relativism is patently false and not just some of the assertions made by it. Christianity posits Biblical principles that can transform any culture for the better.
One criticism of skeptics today that is often directed against religion in general is that it encourages the formation and maintenance of in-groups and out-groups. But what about Jesus of Nazareth? A core theme of his teaching is that the love of God transcends and subsequently abrogates social divisions in the kingdom of God which is a spiritual kingdom all genuine Christians are reborn into.
In this kingdom, Jesus explicitly extends the Old Testament command to "love your neighbor" to "love your enemy" (Matthew 5:44). Far from endorsing out-group hostility, Jesus both commended and commanded an ethic of out-group affirmation.
While many Christians can certainly be accused of failing to live up to this demand, it exists right at the heart of the teachings of Christ and therefore the Christian ethic.
The Apostle Paul, of course, understood this and his writings reveal the fellowship of God’s people as a new covenant community in which Jew and Greek, Israelite and Gentile, become one new people (e.g. the "Church") in God's kingdom.
This is the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham at the beginning of redemptive history: “All peoples on earth will be blessed through you” (Gen 12:3; Gal 3:29).
So your assertion here that Christianity supports ethnic separatism today, under the new covenant, is actually a false one. That said, responsibility certainly is not and we all have a responsibility toward seeing our nations managed properly and not irresponsibly. Patriotism toward this end is a good thing in my view as long as it doesn't become a form of idol worship between God and yourself.
Furthermore, some cultures produce much better results in the world than other cultures. This is observable and scientifically measurable. Cultural relativism, of course, is a construct of reductive materialism (e.g. atheistic materialism) that posits a witch doctor selling curses has the same value to a society as a Christian pastor helping a parishioner forgive their neighbor.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how ridiculous this is. But, in reality, it is because the Biblical God actually exists that cultural relativism is patently false and not just some of the assertions made by it. Christianity posits Biblical principles that can transform any culture for the better.
A
The struggle for survival is observable; however, is a result of the fall, temporary, and certainly Darwinism is no prerequisite for it. Understand, that if reductive materialism were true and no spiritual life, spiritual dimensions, etc... existed and God were not to honor his promise to make "all things new" the only future remaining is doom.
The struggle for survival eventually becomes futile and reduced to doomed complex bacteria on a dying planet, fueled by a dying son, in a dying universe accelerating to the point someday that even atoms won't be able to hold together. All biological life will die and no biological life will ever be possible again.
Since reductive materialism is false, the struggle for survival is a temporary result and tempered by a great many criteria such as the concept of Imago Dei, soteriology, spiritual warfare, the divine, etc... which you see evidence of at work in the world. The divine tempers a temporary struggle for survival, even despite freewill, until the angelic conflict is resolved and God makes "all things new."
The struggle for survival eventually becomes futile and reduced to doomed complex bacteria on a dying planet, fueled by a dying son, in a dying universe accelerating to the point someday that even atoms won't be able to hold together. All biological life will die and no biological life will ever be possible again.
Since reductive materialism is false, the struggle for survival is a temporary result and tempered by a great many criteria such as the concept of Imago Dei, soteriology, spiritual warfare, the divine, etc... which you see evidence of at work in the world. The divine tempers a temporary struggle for survival, even despite freewill, until the angelic conflict is resolved and God makes "all things new."
I see no problem with it.... survial of the fiittest is pretty true in the animal kingdom an dosent go against anything biblical an the fwct that some species evolve oe adapt to enviroment changes is also true an dosent go agaisnt any thing biblical..... the only thing i wouldnt see a christian bein ablen to belive is that everything orginally evolved from single cell organisms because that does go against the bible....