Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Then one has to be careful not to separate, because Jesus said; "I and my Father are ONE". Has God changed? No. Has Jesus changed? No

Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

God and Jesus alike do not accept doctrines that have no substance. Like rejection of past truth, and acceptance of vein works. Both are equally rejected and corrupt.
Colossians 2
Alive in Christ
6Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spiritsa of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.c

Let No One Disqualify You
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,d puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

.....

Many have set forth arguments regarding the identification of the errorists at Colosse. Some believe the heretics were primarily Jewish, while others say they were Gentiles. Those arguing for a Jewish contingent usually view them as members of the Essenes or a group like the Merkabah mystics rather than the type of Judaistic legalism found at Galatia. Those who believe the opponents were Gentiles, or at least Hellenistic, think Neopythogorean or mystery religion roots were present.

Along with this group of scholars are those who believe the Colossian church was influenced by Gnostic elements. Those who reject pre-Christian Gnosticism, however, do think there were embryonic or incipient forms of thought (perhaps proto-Gnostic), which eventually solidified in the Gnosticism of the second century A.D.

No single view has arguments that can lead to its being endorsed exclusively. It is best to recognize that both Jewish and Gentile elements were present in the Colossian heresy, many of which were generally shared by the populace in the highly charged world of the first century, especially in the syncretistic and Hellenistic mood of Achaia and western Asia Minor. Many of the elements developed into the Gnosticism of the second century but with far more elaborate philosophical-religious views than are found in Colossians.

The most one can say of the error in Colossians is that it was a syncretism of Jewish, Gentile, and Christian features that diminished the all sufficiency of Christ's salvation and His personal preeminence.

Heresies in the Colossian Church
H. Wayne House
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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Then one has to be careful not to separate, because Jesus said; "I and my Father are ONE". Has God changed? No. Has Jesus changed? No

Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

God and Jesus alike do not accept doctrines that have no substance. Like rejection of past truth, and acceptance of vein works. Both are equally rejected and corrupt.
Careful not to separate what? The will of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Will of the Father? I just told you they are the same.

We must know that the Lord Jesus Christ gives us a New Way. One that is entirely different from and rejected by Judaism. How is it different from Judaism? It is not based on our works. It is based on the works of the Lord Jesus. You think you can blend the two and be a "super" jew? It doesn't work that way. Ultimately you must decide which way you will follow.

What does the Lord say about putting New Wine into Old Wineskins? That's what you are trying to do when you mix grace with Law. You are trying to put new wine into old wineskins. You are trying to walk with one foot in grace and one foot in law. One foot in the light and one foot in the shadow.

Don't be upset about it. Most religious people are that way. They think their religion is pleasing to God. What did the Lord Jesus have to say to the religious people? If you don't know already, it wasn't good.

God and Jesus alike do not accept doctrines that have no substance.
lol. The Lord Jesus doesn't accept ANY doctrines. He delivers doctrine. You either accept or you don't...
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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I think the only person you feel you have to keep "showing" is yourself, then. Because everyone in here who would consider themselves a part of the Hebrew Roots Movement to any degree would all agree that "its all about Jesus all the time".

Have a great night everyone!
Matt
Strange how you evaded the direct questions I asked you and instead tried to change the focus to something else...

If the Lord Jesus Christ hasn't superceded the Passover then why celebrate it? If you're not celebrating the Lord Jesus then what are you celebrating?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Careful not to separate what? The will of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Will of the Father? I just told you they are the same.

We must know that the Lord Jesus Christ gives us a New Way. One that is entirely different from and rejected by Judaism. How is it different from Judaism? It is not based on our works. It is based on the works of the Lord Jesus. You think you can blend the two and be a "super" jew? It doesn't work that way. Ultimately you must decide which way you will follow.

Don't be upset about it. Most religious people are that way. They think their religion is pleasing to God. What did the Lord Jesus have to say to the religious people? If you don't know already, it wasn't good.

lol. The Lord Jesus doesn't accept ANY doctrines. He delivers doctrine. You either accept or you don't...
I haven't been endorsing Judaism at all in anything that I have posted. You have used that term when the Mosaic Law is mentioned as being relevant for today. I'm endorsing the Mosaic law as God gave it in it's pure form, not as man interprets it. The rhetoric and terms should speak for themselves. Would you say that the Mosaic Law in it's pure form is at odds with Jesus Christ? That's the separation I'm talking about. The way we talk separates what God has given in the OT Covenants from what Jesus has given in the NT Covenant. I've even heard that fulfill means to make obsolete. I guess some have not had a very good handle on the English language. Sorry you didn't pick that up.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,021
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Strange how you evaded the direct questions I asked you and instead tried to change the focus to something else...

If the Lord Jesus Christ hasn't superceded the Passover then why celebrate it? If you're not celebrating the Lord Jesus then what are you celebrating?
I celebrate Passover to remember how God miraculously saved His people. And more importantly, I celebrate Passover to remember how Jesus miraculously saved me and brought me from death to life. I celebrate Passover Because God said to do it forever. Exodus 12:24-27 "And you shall observe this event as an ordinance for you and your children forever. 25 When you enter the land which the Lord will give you, as He has promised, you shall observe this rite. 26 And when your children say to you, ‘What does this rite mean to you?’ 27 you shall say, ‘It is a Passover sacrifice to the Lord who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt when He smote the Egyptians, but spared our homes.’”And the people bowed low and worshiped".
I celebrate Passover because Jesus celebrated it. Luke 22:14-19 "14 When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. 15 And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; 18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

I continue to celebrate Passover because there isn't a single scripture where Jesus says to not do it. I continue to celebrate it because there isn't a single scripture where the disciples or Paul says not to do it.

And I'm willing to bet that almost everyone in here who keeps a physical Passover would say that they are celebrating the life, death, resurrection and gracious salvation of Jesus.

Have a great day everyone!
Matt
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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I haven't been endorsing Judaism at all in anything that I have posted. You have used that term when the Mosaic Law is mentioned as being relevant for today. I'm endorsing the Mosaic law as God gave it in it's pure form, not as man interprets it. The rhetoric and terms should speak for themselves. Would you say that the Mosaic Law in it's pure form is at odds with Jesus Christ? That's the separation I'm talking about. The way we talk separates what God has given in the OT Covenants from what Jesus has given in the NT Covenant. I've even heard that fulfill means to make obsolete. I guess some have not had a very good handle on the English language. Sorry you didn't pick that up.
Its not the English language that is at fault. It is peoples different understanding. If I kept this vague as you are attempting to do, we would agree on most everything. Watch, I'll show you...

The Mosaic Law itself is not at odds with the Lord Jesus Christ. It is at odds with us. So what is the solution? Just try harder?

Yeah. Try harder. And proclaim Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

But that isn't really it. That is kind of vague.

What happens is that when the law brings us to Christ, because of our inability to be Righteous before Him, The Lord gives us a New Way. When we follow this New Way it essentially makes the old obsolete, to us. This New Way is what makes us Righteous before God.

The old way never made any righteous before God. The old way is the established way for everyone until they come to Christ. If you attempt to point people back to the old way all you have done is told them that you have no faith in the Law bringing people to Christ, you have no faith that people actually tell the truth, and you have no faith that once someone comes to Christ He keeps them in the paths of righteousness. I don't think you knowingly do this. I think you just don't understand that the Lord has established a New Way.

You are stuck in the old way, just like judaism, because you think you have a superior knowledge of the law and everyone else doesn't understand this superior knowledge. In a lot of ways I bet this is true. I suppose it is only natural to have some sort of reaction when someone comes along and tells you all that knowledge is dung when compared to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. I suppose you want to prove that old knowledge of the law is useful in some way...

The Law is actually beautiful if you were to really look at it. It just doesn't seem right to go on and on about it when you see that there are a bunch of legalists and judaizers trapped in the shadow of performing it.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
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Strange how you evaded the direct questions I asked you and instead tried to change the focus to something else...

If the Lord Jesus Christ hasn't superceded the Passover then why celebrate it? If you're not celebrating the Lord Jesus then what are you celebrating?
Christ has superceded the Passover?

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Christ IS the Passover. Opinions vary but then there is truth.
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
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You are stuck in the old way, just like judaism, because you think you have a superior knowledge of the law and everyone else doesn't understand this superior knowledge. In a lot of ways I bet this is true. I suppose it is only natural to have some sort of reaction when someone comes along and tells you all that knowledge is dung when compared to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. I suppose you want to prove that old knowledge of the law is useful in some way...

The Law is actually beautiful if you were to really look at it. It just doesn't seem right to go on and on about it when you see that there are a bunch of legalists and judaizers trapped in the shadow of performing it.
I'm not going on and on about it to pump what you are accusing me of in any way. I look at the law given to Moses and see Christ Jesus, evidently you don't. Here's an example of a study that I've done about one certain law. It's not really in great depth, but this is just to enlighten you according to the way I see the Mosaic Law. You seem to have a certain fear of the law. It's hard for me to understand that.

Leviticus 14:36-57 (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest go into it to see the plague, that all that is in the house be not made unclean: and afterward the priest shall go in to see the house:
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And he shall look on the plague, and, behold, if the plague be in the walls of the house with hollow strakes, greenish or reddish, which in sight are lower than the wall;
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then the priest shall go out of the house to the door of the house, and shut up the house seven days:
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And the priest shall come again the seventh day, and shall look: and, behold, if the plague be spread in the walls of the house;
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague is, and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city:
[SUP]41 [/SUP]And he shall cause the house to be scraped within round about, and they shall pour out the dust that they scrape off without the city into an unclean place:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered;
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house: it is unclean.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And he shall break down the house, the stones of it, and the timber thereof, and all the morter of the house; and he shall carry them forth out of the city into an unclean place.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Moreover he that goeth into the house all the while that it is shut up shall be unclean until the even.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And he that lieth in the house shall wash his clothes; and he that eateth in the house shall wash his clothes.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]And if the priest shall come in, and look upon it, and, behold, the plague hath not spread in the house, after the house was plaistered: then the priest shall pronounce the house clean, because the plague is healed.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
[SUP]50 [/SUP]And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:
[SUP]51 [/SUP]And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:
[SUP]52 [/SUP]And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:
[SUP]53 [/SUP]But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]This is the law for all manner of plague of leprosy, and scall,
[SUP]55 [/SUP]And for the leprosy of a garment, and of a house,
[SUP]56 [/SUP]And for a rising, and for a scab, and for a bright spot:
[SUP]57 [/SUP]To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy.

This scripture has been very uplifting to me, explaining a restoration after having been given the gift of faith. To me, it explains how the high Priest (Christ Jesus) has the power to clean the house (me) after welcoming Him in, to see the corruption of my fleshly nature, with vacant holes that need to be filled. Verse 37 and 44
There were 7 days between Jesus entering Jerusalem, and His resurrection, 7 being the number, or letter “Zayin” (completeness) relating to food and nourishment, being the picture of a mattock (in the Hebrew pictorial) that prepares the ground, or heart. Relate to the parable of the sower and the seed. Verse 38
He will take corruption away, in the process as He determines, on the cross outside the city walls. Verse 41 and 45
He will baptize me and pronounce me clean before the Father. Verse 48 and 52
Cedar wood=known for it’s strength and deep root, even though the cross was Dogwood as I understand, and it doesn’t rot as other woods do.
Scarlet=blood
Hyssop=it is mentioned in Psalm 51 of the Bible as a Spiritual Purifying Agent, as it is written: Cleanse me with HYSSOP; wash me and I shall be whiter than snow. Verse 49

His flesh shall be the sacrifice of cleansing. Verse 50
The living bird is likened unto the scapegoat in Leviticus 16:8 (Az’azel) verse 53
Even though I know I see very little of the entire picture God is showing to me, this law has been uplifting to me, being a believer in Christ Jesus, knowing he continues to clean me up, when I confess my sinful nature. It helps me to see, and understand what dying daily means. May God bless you with these thoughts that are so deep and profound.
 
Mar 3, 2013
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You are stuck in the old way, just like judaism, because you think you have a superior knowledge of the law and everyone else doesn't understand this superior knowledge. In a lot of ways I bet this is true. I suppose it is only natural to have some sort of reaction when someone comes along and tells you all that knowledge is dung when compared to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. I suppose you want to prove that old knowledge of the law is useful in some way...

The Law is actually beautiful if you were to really look at it. It just doesn't seem right to go on and on about it when you see that there are a bunch of legalists and judaizers trapped in the shadow of performing it.
I have been watching this thread and I have a question for you. Just suppose, you are the one who is misled and has been deceived into believing the gospel of Christ in an abbreviated or incomplete form, would you not find your own arrogance and lack of humility as disgusting as I do? How would you want someone to approach you and try to show you the truth? You know, the golden rule.

If we as Christians see a brother/sister erring somehow, we are to try to restore him/her in a spirit of meekness, which has as a component: humility - something you have displayed NONE of.

Galatians 6:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

or as my favorite translation puts it: "Brothers, suppose someone is caught doing something wrong. You who have the Spirit should set him right, but in a spirit of humility, keeping an eye on yourselves so that you won't be tempted too."
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I have been watching this thread and I have a question for you. Just suppose, you are the one who is misled and has been deceived into believing the gospel of Christ in an abbreviated or incomplete form, would you not find your own arrogance and lack of humility as disgusting as I do? How would you want someone to approach you and try to show you the truth? You know, the golden rule.

If we as Christians see a brother/sister erring somehow, we are to try to restore him/her in a spirit of meekness, which has as a component: humility - something you have displayed NONE of.

Galatians 6:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

or as my favorite translation puts it: "Brothers, suppose someone is caught doing something wrong. You who have the Spirit should set him right, but in a spirit of humility, keeping an eye on yourselves so that you won't be tempted too."
this isn't referring to false christs and false gospels.
it's about sins of the flesh.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I'm not going on and on about it to pump what you are accusing me of in any way. I look at the law given to Moses and see Christ Jesus, evidently you don't. Here's an example of a study that I've done about one certain law. It's not really in great depth, but this is just to enlighten you according to the way I see the Mosaic Law. You seem to have a certain fear of the law. It's hard for me to understand that.

Leviticus 14:36-57 (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest go into it to see the plague, that all that is in the house be not made unclean: and afterward the priest shall go in to see the house:
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And he shall look on the plague, and, behold, if the plague be in the walls of the house with hollow strakes, greenish or reddish, which in sight are lower than the wall;
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then the priest shall go out of the house to the door of the house, and shut up the house seven days:
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And the priest shall come again the seventh day, and shall look: and, behold, if the plague be spread in the walls of the house;
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague is, and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city:
[SUP]41 [/SUP]And he shall cause the house to be scraped within round about, and they shall pour out the dust that they scrape off without the city into an unclean place:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered;
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house: it is unclean.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And he shall break down the house, the stones of it, and the timber thereof, and all the morter of the house; and he shall carry them forth out of the city into an unclean place.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Moreover he that goeth into the house all the while that it is shut up shall be unclean until the even.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And he that lieth in the house shall wash his clothes; and he that eateth in the house shall wash his clothes.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]And if the priest shall come in, and look upon it, and, behold, the plague hath not spread in the house, after the house was plaistered: then the priest shall pronounce the house clean, because the plague is healed.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
[SUP]50 [/SUP]And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:
[SUP]51 [/SUP]And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:
[SUP]52 [/SUP]And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:
[SUP]53 [/SUP]But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]This is the law for all manner of plague of leprosy, and scall,
[SUP]55 [/SUP]And for the leprosy of a garment, and of a house,
[SUP]56 [/SUP]And for a rising, and for a scab, and for a bright spot:
[SUP]57 [/SUP]To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy.

This scripture has been very uplifting to me, explaining a restoration after having been given the gift of faith. To me, it explains how the high Priest (Christ Jesus) has the power to clean the house (me) after welcoming Him in, to see the corruption of my fleshly nature, with vacant holes that need to be filled. Verse 37 and 44
There were 7 days between Jesus entering Jerusalem, and His resurrection, 7 being the number, or letter “Zayin” (completeness) relating to food and nourishment, being the picture of a mattock (in the Hebrew pictorial) that prepares the ground, or heart. Relate to the parable of the sower and the seed. Verse 38
He will take corruption away, in the process as He determines, on the cross outside the city walls. Verse 41 and 45
He will baptize me and pronounce me clean before the Father. Verse 48 and 52
Cedar wood=known for it’s strength and deep root, even though the cross was Dogwood as I understand, and it doesn’t rot as other woods do.
Scarlet=blood
Hyssop=it is mentioned in Psalm 51 of the Bible as a Spiritual Purifying Agent, as it is written: Cleanse me with HYSSOP; wash me and I shall be whiter than snow. Verse 49

His flesh shall be the sacrifice of cleansing. Verse 50
The living bird is likened unto the scapegoat in Leviticus 16:8 (Az’azel) verse 53
Even though I know I see very little of the entire picture God is showing to me, this law has been uplifting to me, being a believer in Christ Jesus, knowing he continues to clean me up, when I confess my sinful nature. It helps me to see, and understand what dying daily means. May God bless you with these thoughts that are so deep and profound.
Leviticus: Seedbed of NT Theology
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html < click

May God bless you with these thoughts that are so deep and profound.

i'd like to hear your thoughts on this amazing study:)

for some reason whenever i offer this (from Elin), i never hear back on it.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
I celebrate Passover to remember how God miraculously saved His people. And more importantly, I celebrate Passover to remember how Jesus miraculously saved me and brought me from death to life. I celebrate Passover Because God said to do it forever. Exodus 12:24-27 "And you shall observe this event as an ordinance for you and your children forever. 25 When you enter the land which the Lord will give you, as He has promised, you shall observe this rite. 26 And when your children say to you, ‘What does this rite mean to you?’ 27 you shall say, ‘It is a Passover sacrifice to the Lord who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt when He smote the Egyptians, but spared our homes.’”And the people bowed low and worshiped".
I celebrate Passover because Jesus celebrated it. Luke 22:14-19 "14 When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. 15 And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; 18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

I continue to celebrate Passover because there isn't a single scripture where Jesus says to not do it. I continue to celebrate it because there isn't a single scripture where the disciples or Paul says not to do it.

And I'm willing to bet that almost everyone in here who keeps a physical Passover would say that they are celebrating the life, death, resurrection and gracious salvation of Jesus.

Have a great day everyone!
Matt
I understand celebrating the Lord Jesus Christ saving you.

I don't understand celebrating the shadow that was fulfilled. I don't understand how you can be saved by the Lord Jesus and not know that His Way supercedes the old.

But you don't see it that way. You see it as a mixing of the two. You can do both at the same time. Fulfill the commandment in your own power and walk in the saving Grace of the Lord Jesus.

Hebrews 10:1-10
[SUP]1[/SUP]For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Christ has superceded the Passover?

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Christ IS the Passover. Opinions vary but then there is truth.
Yeah, exactly. Christ is our Passover. He has superceded the old passover.

The old was meant to point you to Him and what He would do.
 
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Leviticus: Seedbed of NT Theology
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html < click

May God bless you with these thoughts that are so deep and profound.

i'd like to hear your thoughts on this amazing study:)

for some reason whenever i offer this (from Elin), i never hear back on it.
We will look at it for sure. I went there for a little while and I'm sure that it is very informative. Something we can learn from and grow with. Thanks
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
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I'm not going on and on about it to pump what you are accusing me of in any way. I look at the law given to Moses and see Christ Jesus, evidently you don't. Here's an example of a study that I've done about one certain law. It's not really in great depth, but this is just to enlighten you according to the way I see the Mosaic Law. You seem to have a certain fear of the law. It's hard for me to understand that.

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You just proved the point I was making. Thank you??? I guess...

Instead of looking at the shadow and being uplifted by the shadow that explains other shadows, why not look to the Lord Jesus and give people your words of your own testimony?

Or is this your testimony? That you love looking to the law because it uplifts you?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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We will look at it for sure. I went there for a little while and I'm sure that it is very informative. Something we can learn from and grow with. Thanks
you are welcome.
it's a little more than informative....it's a total blessing and REVEALS exactly WHAT (WHO) we are blessed to see in the awesome details of the LAW.
all that mold...and yeast...and oil....and blood.
i look forward to hearing your report.
 
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Grandpa

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I have been watching this thread and I have a question for you. Just suppose, you are the one who is misled and has been deceived into believing the gospel of Christ in an abbreviated or incomplete form, would you not find your own arrogance and lack of humility as disgusting as I do? How would you want someone to approach you and try to show you the truth? You know, the golden rule.

If we as Christians see a brother/sister erring somehow, we are to try to restore him/her in a spirit of meekness, which has as a component: humility - something you have displayed NONE of.

Galatians 6:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

or as my favorite translation puts it: "Brothers, suppose someone is caught doing something wrong. You who have the Spirit should set him right, but in a spirit of humility, keeping an eye on yourselves so that you won't be tempted too."
I know of no kind of Love that wouldn't at least attempt to show you what you are trapped in.

If a person is trapped in judaism and legalism what do you tell them? I would very much like to know your answer...
 
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I know of no kind of Love that wouldn't at least attempt to show you what you are trapped in.

If a person is trapped in judaism and legalism what do you tell them? I would very much like to know your answer...
In all that I have read, in several threads, I have never seen any who endorse the Mosaic Law as valid for Christians today, outwardly say they are defending Judaism or legalism, and making accusations that those who don't see the Mosaic Law legally according to the Jews are not saved. All the accusations are from those who don't want anything to do with the Mosaic Law, saying it is obsolete, over, a thing of the past, and in essence no good for those who believe in the salvation of Christ Jesus. All accusations come from those that deny the Mosaic Law, not the other way around. Something to think about. read post 1028, and then click on the link zone suggested to me and then you can clearly see where the so called legalists and Judaizers are really coming from. I beginning to wonder who is really trapped.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html
 
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Originally Posted by just-us-2
I have been watching this thread and I have a question for you. Just suppose, you are the one who is misled and has been deceived into believing the gospel of Christ in an abbreviated or incomplete form, would you not find your own arrogance and lack of humility as disgusting as I do? How would you want someone to approach you and try to show you the truth? You know, the golden rule.

If we as Christians see a brother/sister erring somehow, we are to try to restore him/her in a spirit of meekness, which has as a component: humility - something you have displayed NONE of.

Galatians 6:1 (KJV)

[SUP]1 [/SUP]Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

or as my favorite translation puts it: "Brothers, suppose someone is caught doing something wrong. You who have the Spirit should set him right, but in a spirit of humility, keeping an eye on yourselves so that you won't be tempted too."


I know of no kind of Love that wouldn't at least attempt to show you what you are trapped in.

If a person is trapped in judaism and legalism what do you tell them? I would very much like to know your answer...
Well, young man, you are the one making the accusation here that I am “trapped in judaism and legalism” so you tell me. So far your technique is lacking effectiveness.

You missed my point anyway, but I understand. My point was: IF you are sure someone is caught in an errant thought pattern or behavior, you are to restore him/her “in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” or “in a spirit of humility, keeping an eye on yourselves so that you won't be tempted too.” But humility is hard to come by these days in professing Christians, and human nature’s propensity to override reality when it comes to self-examination and see ones self as better, smarter, better looking, etc than the individual actually is, explains your ignoring of the real point.

I will tell you something with all the love I can muster up, so please listen. Before you make accusations regarding another person’s spiritual state or beliefs, weigh carefully every thought you have before you say it. Consider that the other person may have been put in your path by God, to help YOU. Now, in order to absorb that statement, one must be humble of heart. I would like to say walmart has humility stuck on a shelf in a certain department – go buy some, but God wants us to learn humility and keep it always at the front of our character whatever we do. Sometimes we are the helper, and sometimes we have to be on the receiving end of help or learning of wisdom, etc. When we get so full of ourselves that we cannot bring ourselves to listen to another Christian, God can’t use us.

And FYI, I am not “trapped in judaism and legalism” – since I felt like God was telling me to study the Christianity and salvation that Jesus taught and the culture in which He taught it a couple years ago, I have had more spiritual understanding than ever before. However, if you can prove to me with scripture that the law is of no effect, that Jesus did not teach from the law, that there is no use for the law anymore, and that we can just skate along drumming up our own ideas of how God should be worshipped rather than listen to His instruction, maybe you could convert me to your way of thinking.
 
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you are welcome.
it's a little more than informative....it's a total blessing and REVEALS exactly WHAT (WHO) we are blessed to see in the awesome details of the LAW.
all that mold...and yeast...and oil....and blood.
i look forward to hearing your report.
We have studied the Mosaic Law for years, so the link confirms most of the way we have seen things for years. Nevertheless, I'm sure there are details that will be enlightening to say the least. What we have learned by seeing the Law as it was original intended, is a closer and closer relation to the God of the Old Testament to the God of the New Testament, confirming they are the same. It has been hard to connect the two in the past because the writings of the Bible show such a difference between Jesus and God. I have personally struggled with this in the past. Study like this connects God and Jesus together as He intended it to be. I really liked what I have read so far, but have given myself no time to ingest it at this points.
 
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