Is there anything about Christianity (Christ) that is not controversial?

[Scotth1960]

hi scott.


Dear Zone, The split between papal Rome and the Orthodox Church happened officially in 1054 AD. But it really began in 1014 AD when the pope of Rome began chanting "Filioque" (and the Son) in the Roman liturgy of the Mass. It was happening even earlier with Pope Nicholas I of Rome and his schism against Saint Photios the Great, in the 800s. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington June 2011 AD
2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

παραδοσεις noun - accusative plural feminine
paradosis par-ad'-os-is: transmission, i.e. (concretely) a precept; specially, the Jewish traditionary law -- ordinance, tradition.

is there a second witness for oral traditions that would be inspired and authoritative equal to canon unless they came from the Apostles?

CONUNDRUM: because i guess what i see here is that Paul and the others (to whom the actual WILL AND WORDS of GOD were STILL BEING REVEALED...not yet complete...they didn't know everything...still more to come...they were still alive....foundation not yet laid...) said they were to hold to the TRANSMISSION of something that THEY (paul and the others then...in his day) taught - either THEIR SPOKEN WORD (paul and the others then...in his day) or THEIR letter.

so really, that says to me that since Paul is not alive speaking directly to me, i only have his letters (which i either believe are completely authoritative and inspired, or i do not because i place other words and letters in an equal position).

it clearly says in 2:15 (when Paul was alive and speaking and writing under the direct inspiration of The Lord):

the traditions that you were taught:
by us,
either by
our
spoken word or by
our
letter.

that those to whom he wrote the letter were to HOLD TO the traditions that THEY (Paul and the others...back THEN) gave them.

i would need evidence that we have leters from Paul or the other Apsotles that aren't in canon. then i might consider that tradition authoritative and inspired (but i would want to know why the Holy Spirit didn't ensure it was canonized).



that's what The Pharisees said Scott....they turned out to be wrong.

not saying the EO Patriarchs are Pharisees (tho they kinda dress like the Temple guys), but there's already a problem with one oral tradition in particular. that's the shroud of Turin. i wouldn't even think twice about it, except that when Tyndale and Luther and those guys get slammed for trying to hold to what the words actually meant....i ask myself, well what's so wrong with dogma and tradition? cultural flair is a good thing: no prob.

but....if it is established that the institution (whichever one it is) is infallible (no diff if he wears a mitre and says i am infallible or if he is nameless in a cassock and says the institution is infallible), and their extra-biblical traditions are infallible, why do i even need scripture? i don't. i just believe anything someone tells me...so i'm back at Rome again: or, oddly, where you say protestants are! relying on someone else - THEMSELVES!

i guess i need a little more info on exactly what Traditions you mean. because things like waving censers and snipping locks of hair, heads on plates, bones in glass cases, churches dedicated to saints i've never heard of that are portrayed with animal heads in iconography and stuff.

and kissing pictures and chanting and facing east - i'm not sure the Holy Spirit is telling me to do that. i'm not sure those things are inspired and infallible.

things like graduated initiates (and that's what they are called) move on into the mysteries of the ever-virginity of mary and stuff. dunno. don't see any of that in scripture scott.

the whole thing could just revert to RC before Luther if that's preferable....a ceremony of rituals (that LOOK pagan but aren't) in a language i do not understand (for some reason) and mysteries i don't get to know about (unless someone tells me verbally or opens a vault and get to look at secret stuff).

what is that? Christianity? or a mysterious religion? not sure.

anyways.

i wanted to ask a little OC history:

when did the spilt between OC and Rome happen again? because i wonder why Luther had to stand all alone against a gigantic machine and face possible death, and then go into hiding and translate the entire Bible from one language to another while trying to remain faithful to what they were never allowed to see to begin with?

kind of a hard task and for one guy. and he just gets slammed continually for being an ideologue and a revolutionary and stuff. but WHY? he was willing to keep most the other dogma - just that one thorny issue:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

anyways....where was OC at that time? was OC going toe to toe with Rome on all the odd doctrines that they now disagree with? or were they quiet? what about the people (masses) at that time?

and why is Luther demonic for the word ALONE which does zero to change the meaning of the verse NADA (unless there has to be a reason for works righteousness unto salvation...James doesn't say that so let's leave him in agreement with the rest of Scripture, k?)

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

what did OC do about Rome changing the Ten Commandments? did any EO patriarch make a stand and get stabbed strangled and burned at the stake like my brother William?

~

anyways..

so, let's say we have our Patriarchs who we trust and believe have perfectly preserved true and pure and INSPIRED doctrine in an unbroken line of apostolic oral traditions (preserved in rituals also) - what happens if a TRADITION we are told is inspired and authoritative CONTRADICTS what the Scriptures say?

which one trumps?

anyways....like - what do i do about The Shroud of Turin (which isn't an issue for me because of what JOHN said.






so, something that didn't matter to me much before now matters a great deal because the same people that say Luther and Tyndale and the Reformers are demonic and antichrist, tell me that orally transmitted decisions made from a heirarchy of Patriarchs are INSPIRED and INFALLIBLE even when they contradict scripture.

help me out on this scott because i must be missing something. i hope its okay to discuss, because the OP is:

Re: Is there anything about Christianity (Christ) that is not controversial?

thank you.
zone

 

[Scotth1960]

hi scott.
okay, fair enough. a church in Helsinki, Finland has two statues in it.
i would have to disagree with that, of course.

do they bow down to them or kiss them i wonder? pray in front of them (at them)? maybe. in any case, that would not be acceptable to me (any more than a couple of purpose driven churches i've been into that have giant praying hands, 25 foot crosses, and bookstores and latte shops in them - cash registers ringing and all).

~

yes, i know OC gets around the graven images thing by saying icons are two-dimensional, and technically not "carved". it's clever, for sure.

but you didn't address the iconography issue. because i see this in Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 5:8
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Dear Zone, In the same book of Exodus, God commands carved images of cherubim (angels) to be made upon the Ark of the Covenant, and this is a likeness of angels of heaven. So God made exceptions to His own rule of no images. He commanded certain images to be made. Not to be worshipped, but to be venerated (respected). So, if He allows images of cherubim, would He not also allow images of Jesus Christ and of the Mother of God and of the Saints of God? If not, why not? What Scripture forbids them, when Scripture allows carved images of cherubim upon the Ark of the Covenant? God bless you. In Erie PA June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington um....pretty much nothing is left out there. carved or not carved. doesn't that say don't make ANYTHING and call it holy and sacred...it seems to say do not represent anything related to God and heaven in any way whatsoever outside what He already very carefully laid out (i.e: the Temples)?

i would think that means don't bring anything we created to represent God to church also (golden calves were actually called YHVH, weren't they? and Aaron said that was okay didn't he?...he was wrong if i recall)

so i have an issue, then with pictures, bones etc: how is this provided for in the Traditions?

also: are we settled on "the Shroud of Turin infallibly established as genuine" thing? because there's that problem about the grave clothes in John.

thank you.
zone[

 

[zone]

Dear Zone, The split between papal Rome and the Orthodox Church happened officially in 1054 AD. But it really began in 1014 AD when the pope of Rome began chanting "Filioque" (and the Son) in the Roman liturgy of the Mass. It was happening even earlier with Pope Nicholas I of Rome and his schism against Saint Photios the Great, in the 800s. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington June 2011 AD

thanks scott.
so, really the problem is "when the pope of Rome began chanting "Filioque" (and the Son)"?
any other issues?
zone.

 

[Scotth1960]

thanks scott.
so, really the problem is "when the pope of Rome began chanting "Filioque" (and the Son)"?
any other issues?
zone. Dear Zone, The primacy and alleged universal jurisdiction and power of the pope of Rome (Latin papacy) over all other Christian bishops in the whole earth; the use of azymes (unleavened bread) in the Eucharist, with Rome eventually offering communion (Eucharist) in one kind only, thus denying the wine (blood of Christ) to the laity. Catholics today receive only a leavened wafer, and they don't drink the blood of Christ. Orthodox Christians receive the body and blood of Christ together in bread and wine on a spoon from an Orthodox priest. The Catholics also sprinkle babies and adult converts. The Orthodox Church has always baptized people by trine immersion, whether babies or adult converts. God bless you. In Erie PA USA June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

 

[zone]

Dear Zone, In the same book of Exodus, God commands carved images of cherubim (angels) to be made upon the Ark of the Covenant, and this is a likeness of angels of heaven. So God made exceptions to His own rule of no images. He commanded certain images to be made. Not to be worshipped, but to be venerated (respected). So, if He allows images of cherubim, would He not also allow images of Jesus Christ and of the Mother of God and of the Saints of God? If not, why not? What Scripture forbids them, when Scripture allows carved images of cherubim upon the Ark of the Covenant? God bless you. In Erie PA June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

scott:
well, since the instructions and purposes for those images (foreshadowing the real yet to come) were very precisely and carefully given FOR HIS PURPOSES, don't you think it might be somewhat forward on our part to proceed with anything beyond that?

as i said, aaron allowed the children to throw gold in the furnace and make a calf. that didn't go over very well.

also: does God have a mother?

and who exactly are saints, scott?

whether we desire to "venerate" (respect) the saints or not, the following seems pretty clear, particularly coming from an angel (a fellow-servant like the saints)...it seems dangerous to me, and i wonder why we might feel compelled to do it, and be assured it is ok:

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

4352. proskuneó​

to do reverence to​

Original Word: προσκυνέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proskuneó
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-koo-neh'-o)
Short Definition: I worship
Definition: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.


4352 proskynéō (from 4314 /prós, "towards" and kyneo, "to kiss") – properly, to kiss the ground when prostrating before a superior; to worship, ready "to fall down/prostrate oneself to adore on one's knees" (DNTT); to "do obeisance" (BAGD).

["The basic meaning of 4352 (proskynéō), in the opinion of most scholars, is to kiss. . . . On Egyptian reliefs worshipers are represented with outstretched hand throwing a kiss to (pros-) the deity" (DNTT, 2, 875,876).

4352 (proskyneō) has been (metaphorically) described as "the kissing-ground" between believers (the Bride) and Christ (the heavenly Bridegroom). While this is true, 4352 (proskynéō) suggests the willingness to make all necessary physical gestures of obeisance.]
Word Origin
from pros and kuneó (to kiss)
Definition
to do reverence to
NASB Word Usage
bow down (1), bow down before (1), bowed down (1), bowed down before (2), bowing before (1), bowing down (1), prostrated himself before (1), worship (32), worshiped (17), worshipers (1), worshiping (1), worships (1).




see, this is most definitely someone bowed down and kissing an icon. is this something that EO/OC does?

that's what i don't quite get is why we think this is ok, because it's pretty clear from Sola Scriptura that it is not ok (am i missing something?).

that's why i'm in a quandry over the infalliblity of tradition. why would anyone need to do that? what exactly does it mean, and who might be portrayed on that icon that is on a pedastel as if it were holy and sacred. is it considered holy and sacred (the picture)? if not, why is that man kissing it in church?

i would need to see an authoritative and infallible source that tells me this tradition (ritual) is ok.
do you have a link that isn't philosophical dialectics, something that just shows me Jesus and the apostles said this was ok?

thanks scott.
zone.

 

[Scotth1960]

hi scott.
okay, fair enough. a church in Helsinki, Finland has two statues in it.
i would have to disagree with that, of course.

do they bow down to them or kiss them i wonder? pray in front of them (at them)? maybe. in any case, that would not be acceptable to me (any more than a couple of purpose driven churches i've been into that have giant praying hands, 25 foot crosses, and bookstores and latte shops in them - cash registers ringing and all).

~

yes, i know OC gets around the graven images thing by saying icons are two-dimensional, and technically not "carved". it's clever, for sure.

but you didn't address the iconography issue. because i see this in Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 5:8
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

um....pretty much nothing is left out there. carved or not carved. doesn't that say don't make ANYTHING and call it holy and sacred...it seems to say do not represent anything related to God and heaven in any way whatsoever outside what He already very carefully laid out (i.e: the Temples)?

i would think that means don't bring anything we created to represent God to church also (golden calves were actually called YHVH, weren't they? and Aaron said that was okay didn't he?...he was wrong if i recall)

so i have an issue, then with pictures, bones etc: how is this provided for in the Traditions?

also: are we settled on "the Shroud of Turin infallibly established as genuine" thing? because there's that problem about the grave clothes in John.

thank you.
zone Dear Zone, Papal Rome uses UNleavened wafers in communion, that is! No leavened bread, which Church tradition always used. Papal Rome also enforces mandatory (compulsory) celibacy for all Catholic clergy. Eastern Orthodoxy allows men to marry before ordination, but not after ordination. And chooses its bishops from among monks (unmarried men dedicated to God). Eastern Orthodoxy thus equally values and respects marriage (sexuality) and monasticism (celibacy) as gifts from God. Roman Catholicism with its mandatory bias against marriage for clergy has large instance of pedophilia (heterosexual and homosexual) among Catholic priests, and homosexuality among Catholic priests and clergy. This in spite of Rome's law of celibacy, there are many predators in Rome who are being protected by the Pope and his bishops. Ultimately this is going on under the noses of the Catholic bishops. And these people are allowed to minister while they are still committing these sexual crimes against women and children and sometimes against men too. This happens in every denomination, but it is more widespread in Roman Catholicism than it is in Eastern Orthodoxy. I have heard stories on TV where this sexual abuse happens among Jehovah's Witnesses, too. Take care. Sometimes, sexual crimes happen in the Eastern Orthodox Church, too. There is no church on earth where sins do not happen. In Erie PA June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

 

[kenneth2816]

No. Everything about Him is controversial. He even said "DO not think I have come to bring peace into the world, but a sword."

There has never been a man who was the subject of more books

There has bever been a book which has passed more scrutiny.

 

[zone]

Dear Zone, Papal Rome uses UNleavened wafers in communion, that is! No leavened bread, which Church tradition always used. Papal Rome also enforces mandatory (compulsory) celibacy for all Catholic clergy. Eastern Orthodoxy allows men to marry before ordination, but not after ordination. And chooses its bishops from among monks (unmarried men dedicated to God). Eastern Orthodoxy thus equally values and respects marriage (sexuality) and monasticism (celibacy) as gifts from God. Roman Catholicism with its mandatory bias against marriage for clergy has large instance of pedophilia (heterosexual and homosexual) among Catholic priests, and homosexuality among Catholic priests and clergy. This in spite of Rome's law of celibacy, there are many predators in Rome who are being protected by the Pope and his bishops. Ultimately this is going on under the noses of the Catholic bishops. And these people are allowed to minister while they are still committing these sexual crimes against women and children and sometimes against men too. This happens in every denomination, but it is more widespread in Roman Catholicism than it is in Eastern Orthodoxy. I have heard stories on TV where this sexual abuse happens among Jehovah's Witnesses, too. Take care. Sometimes, sexual crimes happen in the Eastern Orthodox Church, too. There is no church on earth where sins do not happen. In Erie PA June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

thank you scott.
yes, the roman crimes are deplorable, and you are right there is sin in every church.

it should not be tolerated from any clergy however, particularly if they are preaching against sin and threatening purgatory and stuff: seems like a little bit of "fun" can cost a lot (out of the chest of merits Jesus has stored up) and take a very very long time to be purged of in purgatory.

the scriptures say to abstain from that stuff: i read that myself in sola scriptura.

yes, i see that, in legalistic religions sin ABOUNDS; pietism is a dangerous playground for the devil (and really just creates hypocrites doesn't it). as LUTHER discovered.

nevertheless:

Eastern Orthodoxy allows men to marry before ordination.

um...ok....how many already-married ordained clergy are in office in OC (rough %age)?

but not after ordination....thus equally values and respects marriage (sexuality) and monasticism (celibacy) as gifts from God.

well, if men are not allowed to marry AFTER they are ordained, they are not really honoring sexuality, are they? its still forced celibacy, and in office. so the institution can CLAIM it honours both, but they have simply split mandatory celibacy into a smaller group.

why wouldn't a clergyman be allowed to marry if he fell in love and wanted a family (or found out he still had sexual passions and needed a wife)? i don't quite get that. if someone chooses celibacy that's cool, but forbidding marriage?

so that part seems a little like another dialectic (kinda like icons aren't carved), but ok.

And chooses its bishops from among monks (unmarried men dedicated to God).

well.....that means you don't rise in the heirarchy if you are married: which is forced celibacy by default.

why on earth would bishops have to be celibate (unmarried)? and why would bishops have to be monks? aren't you dedicated to God? but you go to work and have friends and family and neighbours don't you?

this part is a bit fuzzy. is this Tradition that was handed down from the apostles? i know paul said better to remain unmarried if you can (he had a specific reason for saying that didn't he)...is that why the celibacy?

again, a tiny bit of dilemma because scripture tells m one thing, but OC tradition appears to contradict that:

1 Timothy 4:1-4
Instructions to Timothy
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

again, if i could see an authoritative source that resolves the conflict i could maybe consider the infallibility of OC....

thanks
zone.

 

[Scotth1960]

thank you scott.
yes, the roman crimes are deplorable, and you are right there is sin in every church.

it should not be tolerated from any clergy however, particularly if they are preaching against sin and threatening purgatory and stuff: seems like a little bit of "fun" can cost a lot (out of the chest of merits Jesus has stored up) and take a very very long time to be purged of in purgatory.

the scriptures say to abstain from that stuff: i read that myself in sola scriptura.

yes, i see that, in legalistic religions sin ABOUNDS; pietism is a dangerous playground for the devil (and really just creates hypocrites doesn't it). as LUTHER discovered.

nevertheless:



um...ok....how many already-married ordained clergy are in office in OC (rough %age)?



well, if men are not allowed to marry AFTER they are ordained, they are not really honoring sexuality, are they? its still forced celibacy, and in office. so the institution can CLAIM it honours both, but they have simply split mandatory celibacy into a smaller group.

why wouldn't a clergyman be allowed to marry if he fell in love and wanted a family (or found out he still had sexual passions and needed a wife)? i don't quite get that. if someone chooses celibacy that's cool, but forbidding marriage?

so that part seems a little like another dialectic (kinda like icons aren't carved), but ok.



well.....that means you don't rise in the heirarchy if you are married: which is forced celibacy by default.

why on earth would bishops have to be celibate (unmarried)? and why would bishops have to be monks? aren't you dedicated to God? but you go to work and have friends and family and neighbours don't you?

this part is a bit fuzzy. is this Tradition that was handed down from the apostles? i know paul said better to remain unmarried if you can (he had a specific reason for saying that didn't he)...is that why the celibacy?

again, a tiny bit of dilemma because scripture tells m one thing, but OC tradition appears to contradict that:

1 Timothy 4:1-4
Instructions to Timothy
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

again, if i could see an authoritative source that resolves the conflict i could maybe consider the infallibility of OC....

thanks
zone. Dear zone, The Orthodox Church does not forbid any one who can be married to marry. But of course there are laws, so not everyone can marry just anyone. There are laws against marrying cousins, brothers, sister, mother, father, uncle, aunt, and so on. There are laws of age when a person can marry. People under 18 don't ordinarily marry. This verse in Timothy was written by St. Paul who is in the Orthodox Church, so the OC does not keep people from marrying. It is against tradition for a Christian to marry a non-Christian. Orthodox Christians are also forbidden to attend Jewish synagogues and Muslim mosques. Or Buddhist temples, etc. God bless you. In Erie PA June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington PS Orthodoxy does equally respect both marriage and celibacy, but Protestantism seems to have a bias against celibacy. Orthodoxy has no bias against marriage and married sexuality.

 

[zone]

Dear zone, The Orthodox Church does not forbid any one who can be married to marry. But of course there are laws, so not everyone can marry just anyone. There are laws against marrying cousins, brothers, sister, mother, father, uncle, aunt, and so on. There are laws of age when a person can marry. People under 18 don't ordinarily marry. This verse in Timothy was written by St. Paul who is in the Orthodox Church, so the OC does not keep people from marrying. It is against tradition for a Christian to marry a non-Christian. Orthodox Christians are also forbidden to attend Jewish synagogues and Muslim mosques. Or Buddhist temples, etc. God bless you. In Erie PA June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington PS Orthodoxy does equally respect both marriage and celibacy, but Protestantism seems to have a bias against celibacy. Orthodoxy has no bias against marriage and married sexuality.

hi scott:
but you said they do NOT allow men who are already ordained to marry (?).

is that what you mean by "The Orthodox Church does not forbid any one who can be married to marry."

naturally i agree with all the other restrictions you listed.
thanks scott.
ps: are OC allowed to even ENTER a synagogue or muslim or other temple and under any circumstances? or just can't attend a service?

also: do you think the Lord's burial clothes were one whole cloth?

zone

 

[Scotth1960]

hi scott:
but you said they do NOT allow men who are already ordained to marry (?).

is that what you mean by "The Orthodox Church does not forbid any one who can be married to marry."

naturally i agree with all the other restrictions you listed.
thanks scott.
ps: are OC allowed to even ENTER a synagogue or muslim or other temple and under any circumstances? or just can't attend a service?

also: do you think the Lord's burial clothes were one whole cloth?

quote]

Dear zone, I already confessed a mistake I made. I attended a Jehovah's Witnesses service. I did not pray with them. I went when I should have said no to my neighbor who invited me to the service. I should have know better. I did learn what I should have already known: the place was filled with a demonic atmosphere. The whole place was somber and full of spiritual darkness; it was very depressing, and I pray God forgive me for attending the service. I learned these people really know how to quote from their own version of the Bible, and the whole thing is just wrong. They don't offer much hope to people, and they preach another Gospel. It is a false Gospel, and not Good News. It lacks the Spirit of Jesus Christ. It is just wrong. I was wrong to go there. As for what Orthodoxy says, I believe it generally does no encourage people to attend heterodox religious services. So Jewish synagogues are out, too. In our life, we may have friends or relative who are Protestant or Roman Catholic, and these are Christians. So we may have no problem attending these services out of respect for our friends, not all of whom are Eastern Orthodox. Take care. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington June 2011 AD

 

[zone]

Dear zone, I already confessed a mistake I made. I attended a Jehovah's Witnesses service. I did not pray with them. I went when I should have said no to my neighbor who invited me to the service. I should have know better. I did learn what I should have already known: the place was filled with a demonic atmosphere. The whole place was somber and full of spiritual darkness; it was very depressing, and I pray God forgive me for attending the service. I learned these people really know how to quote from their own version of the Bible, and the whole thing is just wrong. They don't offer much hope to people, and they preach another Gospel. It is a false Gospel, and not Good News. It lacks the Spirit of Jesus Christ. It is just wrong. I was wrong to go there. As for what Orthodoxy says, I believe it generally does no encourage people to attend heterodox religious services. So Jewish synagogues are out, too. In our life, we may have friends or relative who are Protestant or Roman Catholic, and these are Christians. So we may have no problem attending these services out of respect for our friends, not all of whom are Eastern Orthodox. Take care. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington June 2011 AD

no doubt it was disturbing scott. i would feel the same way: there are charismatic services i have attended that made my hair stand on end.

i wondered if OC allows the people to enter temples that are not having a service (i.e: as a tourist)?

 

[Scotth1960]

scott:
well, since the instructions and purposes for those images (foreshadowing the real yet to come) were very precisely and carefully given FOR HIS PURPOSES, don't you think it might be somewhat forward on our part to proceed with anything beyond that?

as i said, aaron allowed the children to throw gold in the furnace and make a calf. that didn't go over very well.

also: does God have a mother?

Dear zone, God the Son, Jesus Christ, has a Mother, the ever-virgin Mary Theotokos, the Mother of God. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington and who exactly are saints, scott?

Dear zone, There are myriads of saints, some known only to God, some known to the Church. St Andrew, St John, St Peter, St Paul, St James, St Thomas, St Jude, St Timothy, St Barnabas, Saint Bartholomew, St Philip, St Djan Darada (the Ethiopian eunuch), St Steven (Stephen), St John Chrysostom, St Basil, St Photios, St Gregory Palamas, St Mark of Ephesus, St John Damascene, and so on. In Erie June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington whether we desire to "venerate" (respect) the saints or not, the following seems pretty clear, particularly coming from an angel (a fellow-servant like the saints)...it seems dangerous to me, and i wonder why we might feel compelled to do it, and be assured it is ok:

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

4352. proskuneó​

to do reverence to​

Original Word: προσκυνέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proskuneó
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-koo-neh'-o)
Short Definition: I worship
Definition: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.


4352 proskynéō (from 4314 /prós, "towards" and kyneo, "to kiss") – properly, to kiss the ground when prostrating before a superior; to worship, ready "to fall down/prostrate oneself to adore on one's knees" (DNTT); to "do obeisance" (BAGD).

["The basic meaning of 4352 (proskynéō), in the opinion of most scholars, is to kiss. . . . On Egyptian reliefs worshipers are represented with outstretched hand throwing a kiss to (pros-) the deity" (DNTT, 2, 875,876).

4352 (proskyneō) has been (metaphorically) described as "the kissing-ground" between believers (the Bride) and Christ (the heavenly Bridegroom). While this is true, 4352 (proskynéō) suggests the willingness to make all necessary physical gestures of obeisance.]
Word Origin
from pros and kuneó (to kiss)
Definition
to do reverence to
NASB Word Usage
bow down (1), bow down before (1), bowed down (1), bowed down before (2), bowing before (1), bowing down (1), prostrated himself before (1), worship (32), worshiped (17), worshipers (1), worshiping (1), worships (1).




see, this is most definitely someone bowed down and kissing an icon. is this something that EO/OC does?

that's what i don't quite get is why we think this is ok, because it's pretty clear from Sola Scriptura that it is not ok (am i missing something?).

that's why i'm in a quandry over the infalliblity of tradition. why would anyone need to do that? what exactly does it mean, and who might be portrayed on that icon that is on a pedastel as if it were holy and sacred. is it considered holy and sacred (the picture)? if not, why is that man kissing it in church?

i would need to see an authoritative and infallible source that tells me this tradition (ritual) is ok.
do you have a link that isn't philosophical dialectics, something that just shows me Jesus and the apostles said this was ok?

thanks scott.
zone. Dear zone, The Orthodox Church does not worship saints or the Virgin Mary or the angels. Adoration (worship) in the highest sense is reserved only for God. Respect and love (veneration) of saints is allowed, even commanded. The Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, prophesied, "Behold, all generations shall call me blessed...." To fail to bless the virgin Mary is to disobey this prophecy of the Virgin. What guarantees the infallibility of Tradition? The Church? Where is the Church mentioned in Scripture: In Matthew 16:18 and 1 Tim. 3:15. It says the Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth". The Church, not Scripture alone, is the pillar and ground of the truth! The Church verifies and says what is Scripture, the Church wrote the NT Scripture; the Church holds the key to the correct canon of the OT, and the correct NT meaning of the OT Scriptures. The Church uses the Greek OT and the Greek NT. We need an objective source for the interpretation of the Scriptrues. That is the Holy Spirit (John 16:13) in the Church (1 Timothy 3:15) using Scripture and (in) Tradition (oral traditions) (2 Thess. 2:15), Apostolic Tradition. God bless you. In June 2011 AD Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

thanks scott.
so, really the problem is "when the pope of Rome began chanting "Filioque" (and the Son)"?
any other issues?
zone Dear Zone, If you want an objective source for the teachings of the Orthodox Church, you might need to spend a little money to buy some Orthodox books. You wouldn't reject them without studying them first. I used to own the Lutheran Book of Concord and Martin Luther's commentary on the Book of Romans and Martin Luther's greatest theological work, "The Bondage of the Will." I read these all, but my study of the Bible led me, with the Holy Spirit's help, to conclusions different from Martin Luther's. I concluded that people really do have free will, and that we are not guilty of Adam's original sin. A person is responsible only for his/her own personal sins (cf. Ezekiel chapter 18). I think that Luther's best work besides his 95 theses is of course his Small Catechism. This catechism is okay as far as it goes, but I believe it makes the mistake of limiting itself to 2 sacraments, baptism and the Lord's Supper, and not including the other 5 sacraments of the historic Church. If you want to know what the Orthodox believe, and what I have come to believe in coming to Orthodoxy, read the following books: (Of course I still have a ways to go in coming further into the Church. I haven't received baptism yet, so I still have to make that important step. I'm just learning Orthodoxy now in reading and some attendance of church servcies). The best introduction to Orthodoxy for beginners is Gillquist, Fr. Peter E. (1992). Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith. Ben Lomond, CA: Conciliar Press. I also recommend you read the following books: Platis, Constantine. Dance O Isaiah: (On Eastern Orthodoxy and Other Religions). Boston, MA: Orthodox Metropolis of Boston, Copyright 2000. See also. Holy Apostles Convent. Copyright 1990 The Lives of the Pillars of Orthodoxy: St. Photios the Great, Saint Gregory Palamas, St. Mark of Ephesus. Buena Vista, CO: Holy Apostles Convent and Dormition Skete. This book is an excellent introduction to some Orthodox saints and the basics of Orthodox theology in its section "Brief Orthodox Replies to the Innovations of the Papacy." God bless you. I would also recommend you read other books at your public library like "The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware. NY: Penguin Books. Also, if you can, attend an Orthodox Church service in a Russian Orthodox Church where the services are in the ENGLISH LANGUAGE. Not ALL Orthodox Churches have services in ENGLISH; some have SLAVONIC or GREEK or ROMANIAN or some other Orthodox languages. Try to find a parish which has used the language of the Canadian or American people, THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. In Erie PA June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

 

[zone]

scott:
well, since the instructions and purposes for those images (foreshadowing the real yet to come) were very precisely and carefully given FOR HIS PURPOSES, don't you think it might be somewhat forward on our part to proceed with anything beyond that?

as i said, aaron allowed the children to throw gold in the furnace and make a calf. that didn't go over very well.

also: does God have a mother?

Dear zone, God the Son, Jesus Christ, has a Mother, the ever-virgin Mary Theotokos, the Mother of God. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington and who exactly are saints, scott?

Dear zone, There are myriads of saints, some known only to God, some known to the Church. St Andrew, St John, St Peter, St Paul, St James, St Thomas, St Jude, St Timothy, St Barnabas, Saint Bartholomew, St Philip, St Djan Darada (the Ethiopian eunuch), St Steven (Stephen), St John Chrysostom, St Basil, St Photios, St Gregory Palamas, St Mark of Ephesus, St John Damascene, and so on. In Erie June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington whether we desire to "venerate" (respect) the saints or not, the following seems pretty clear, particularly coming from an angel (a fellow-servant like the saints)...it seems dangerous to me, and i wonder why we might feel compelled to do it, and be assured it is ok:

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

4352. proskuneó​

to do reverence to​

Original Word: προσκυνέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proskuneó
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-koo-neh'-o)
Short Definition: I worship
Definition: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.


4352 proskynéō (from 4314 /prós, "towards" and kyneo, "to kiss") – properly, to kiss the ground when prostrating before a superior; to worship, ready "to fall down/prostrate oneself to adore on one's knees" (DNTT); to "do obeisance" (BAGD).

["The basic meaning of 4352 (proskynéō), in the opinion of most scholars, is to kiss. . . . On Egyptian reliefs worshipers are represented with outstretched hand throwing a kiss to (pros-) the deity" (DNTT, 2, 875,876).

4352 (proskyneō) has been (metaphorically) described as "the kissing-ground" between believers (the Bride) and Christ (the heavenly Bridegroom). While this is true, 4352 (proskynéō) suggests the willingness to make all necessary physical gestures of obeisance.]
Word Origin
from pros and kuneó (to kiss)
Definition
to do reverence to
NASB Word Usage
bow down (1), bow down before (1), bowed down (1), bowed down before (2), bowing before (1), bowing down (1), prostrated himself before (1), worship (32), worshiped (17), worshipers (1), worshiping (1), worships (1).




see, this is most definitely someone bowed down and kissing an icon. is this something that EO/OC does?

that's what i don't quite get is why we think this is ok, because it's pretty clear from Sola Scriptura that it is not ok (am i missing something?).

that's why i'm in a quandry over the infalliblity of tradition. why would anyone need to do that? what exactly does it mean, and who might be portrayed on that icon that is on a pedastel as if it were holy and sacred. is it considered holy and sacred (the picture)? if not, why is that man kissing it in church?

i would need to see an authoritative and infallible source that tells me this tradition (ritual) is ok.
do you have a link that isn't philosophical dialectics, something that just shows me Jesus and the apostles said this was ok?

thanks scott.
zone. Dear zone, The Orthodox Church does not worship saints or the Virgin Mary or the angels. Adoration (worship) in the highest sense is reserved only for God. Respect and love (veneration) of saints is allowed, even commanded. The Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, prophesied, "Behold, all generations shall call me blessed...." To fail to bless the virgin Mary is to disobey this prophecy of the Virgin. What guarantees the infallibility of Tradition? The Church? Where is the Church mentioned in Scripture: In Matthew 16:18 and 1 Tim. 3:15. It says the Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth". The Church, not Scripture alone, is the pillar and ground of the truth! The Church verifies and says what is Scripture, the Church wrote the NT Scripture; the Church holds the key to the correct canon of the OT, and the correct NT meaning of the OT Scriptures. The Church uses the Greek OT and the Greek NT. We need an objective source for the interpretation of the Scriptrues. That is the Holy Spirit (John 16:13) in the Church (1 Timothy 3:15) using Scripture and (in) Tradition (oral traditions) (2 Thess. 2:15), Apostolic Tradition. God bless you. In June 2011 AD Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

ok.
thanks.

you didnt say how the guy in the church kissing and bowing down to an icon is ok, but whatevah

we'll never ever agree on that particular issue, since its pagan idolatry dressed up as Christian and everybody knows it.

please refrain from slamming the reformed faith if possible over the word ALONE, okay? i'd rather accept that Luther added that word (which changed nothing) than face east, chant, wave censors and kiss icons that portay all manner of beast and what not and groove on bones in church and say its cool.

it isn't.

take care.
zone
(plus you are unable to resolve the Shroud of Turin without supressing scripture, so i must REJECT infallibilty by tradition - to each his own.

i realize this is Roman (are there any EO examples on the list?)....but HOW is the display of mummified corpses revering saints?

Incorrupt Saints on Display

• St. Andrew Bobola
  Church of St. Andrew Bobola, Warsaw, Poland
  Died in 1657, discovered incorrupt 1697.
• St. Bernadette Soubirous
  Convent of St. Gildard, Nevers, France
  The visionary of Lourdes, died 1879. Surely the most beautiful corpse you'll ever see (with some help from wax).
• Mother Cabriani
  Mother Cabrini High School Chapel, New York City, USA
  Italian-born nun, died in Chicago 1917.
• St. Catherine Labouré
  Chapel, Rue du Bac, Paris, France
  A Mary visionary, exhumed after 56 years.
• St. Catherine of Bologna
  Died 1463, has been on display in an upright position for over 500 years.
• St. Clare of Assisi
  Basilica di Santa Chiara, Assisi, Italy
  Died 1253.
• St. Clare of Montefalco
  Church of the Holy Cross, Montefalco, Italy
  Body and heart with cross imprint enshrined separately.
• Dashi-Dorzho Itigilov
  Ivolginsky Datsan, Siberia, Russia
  A rare Buddhist example: a monk who died in the lotus position in 1927 and remains seated and undecayed today.
• St. Etheldreda
  St Etheldreda’s Catholic Church, Ely, England
  Just her hand is on display.
• St. Francis Xavier
  Basilica of Bom Jesus, Goa, India
  Most of incorrupt body on display in a silver casket.
• St. John Vianney
  Shrine of St. John Vianney, Ars, France
  Beloved parish priest of Ars, died 1859, exhumed 1904.
• St. Padre Pio
  San Giovanni Rotondo, Southern Italy
  Died 1968. Exhumed and temporarily(?) on display from April 24, 2008 to mark the 40th anniversary of his death.
• Pope John XXIII
  St. Peter's Basilica, Vatican City
  On display in a glass casket.
• Blessed Paula Frassinetti
  Chapel of the Convent of Santa Dorotea in Rome, Italy
  Died in 1882, exhumed 1906.
• St. Rita of Cascia
  Basilica of St Rita, Cascia, Italy
  The patron saint of hopeless cases, died 1457. Her body has been seen in different positions in the glass case and her eyes have opened and closed unaided.
• St. Sperandia
  Benedictine Convent, Cingoli, Italy
  Died 1276, exhumed eight times, the last in 1952. Said to exude a sweet fragrance ("odor of sanctity").
• St. Teresa Margaret
  Monastery of St. Teresa, Florence, Italy
  Died 1770, exhumed 1783.
• St. Vincent Pallotti
  Church of St. Salvatore, Onda, Italy
  Died 1850, exhumed 1906 and 1950.
• St. Zita
  Basilica of St. Frediano, Lucca, Italy
  Died 1278.

~

this is EO...correct?

asking a DEAD person to pray for you?



March 17th
Troparion (Tone 3)
O holy hierarch, Patrick, wonderworker, equal to the Apostles and illuminator of the Irish people, pray to the merciful God that He will pardon our transgressions.

Patrick was British by birth, born about 373, the son of a deacon and the grandson of a priest. His first trip to Ireland was as a slave, having been kidnapped by Irish pirates. He managed to run away and eventually made his way back to England. He was then sent as bishop to Ireland around 435, setting up his see in Armagh. He had sincere simplicity and deep pastoral care and worked tirelessly to abolish paganism. He is often depicted with a shamrock which he used to explain the Trinity. His scroll reads: "I arise today through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity."
This is by the hand of Nicholas Papas. It is from St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church, Oakland, PA.

Order # sgp-07
Check out other saints of the British Isles.
How to Order

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© "Come and See" Icons, Books & Art​

ya and the shamrock means the trinity - uh huh....the shamrock is occult majik coincidentally....and what's with the HAND SIGN?

do you know what exactly is being passed down through TRADITIONS? I DO.

~


AND PLEASE TELL ME IF THIS IS EASTERN ORTHODOXY?

to make an image (icon) of a JACKAL, call it saint Christopher and REVERE IT?

AN ABOMINATION.

 

[zone]

Ezekiel 8
Idolatry in the Temple
1In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign Lord came upon me there. 2I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man.a From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal. 3He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood. 4And there before me was the glory of the God of Israel, as in the vision I had seen in the plain.

5Then he said to me, “Son of man, look toward the north.” So I looked, and in the entrance north of the gate of the altar I saw this idol of jealousy.

6And he said to me, “Son of man, do you see what they are doing—the utterly detestable things the house of Israel is doing here, things that will drive me far from my sanctuary? But you will see things that are even more detestable.”

7Then he brought me to the entrance to the court. I looked, and I saw a hole in the wall. 8He said to me, “Son of man, now dig into the wall.” So I dug into the wall and saw a doorway there.

9And he said to me, “Go in and see the wicked and detestable things they are doing here.” 10So I went in and looked, and I saw portrayed all over the walls all kinds of crawling things and detestable animals and all the idols of the house of Israel. 11In front of them stood seventy elders of the house of Israel, and Jaazaniah son of Shaphan was standing among them. Each had a censer in his hand, and a fragrant cloud of incense was rising.

12He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, ‘The Lord does not see us; the Lord has forsaken the land.’” 13Again, he said, “You will see them doing things that are even more detestable.”

14Then he brought me to the entrance to the north gate of the house of the Lord, and I saw women sitting there, mourning for Tammuz. 15He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? You will see things that are even more detestable than this.”

16He then brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord, and there at the entrance to the temple, between the portico and the altar, were about twenty-five men. With their backs toward the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east, they were bowing down to the sun in the east.

17He said to me, “Have you seen this, son of man? Is it a trivial matter for the house of Judah to do the detestable things they are doing here? Must they also fill the land with violence and continually provoke me to anger? Look at them putting the branch to their nose! 18Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them.”

 

[pickles]

Friends, Is there anything about Christianity (Christ) that is not controversial?

For example, Can you say which of these controversies are interesting to you, and which of these controversies you don't know about or care anything about?

Calvinism versus Arminianism

Roman Catholicism versus the various Protestant denominations (Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian-Reformed, Methodist)

speaking in tongues Pentecostalism/charismatic renewal versus cessationism of spiritual gifts

infant baptism versus Baptist beliefs

pre-tribulation rapture versus mid tribulation or post-tribulation rapture

dispensationalism versus covenant theology

justification by faith alone versus justification by faith which worketh by love (faith and works)

Eastern Orthodoxy versus Roman Catholicism (or versus Protestantism)

seven sacraments versus two sacraments

single procession of the Holy Spirit versus double procession of the Spirit (Filioque)

single predestination versus double predestination (Calvinism)

existence or non-existence of free will

existence of God and proofs for this, versus believing in God without needing proofs

the truth or falsity of the Shroud of Turin

the truth or falsity of the visions of Our Lady of Lourdes or Our Lady of Fatima or Our Lady of Medjugorje

Sunday worship versus Sabbatarianism (Seventh-day Adventist belief)

creationism and intelligence design versus evolutionism and even theistic evolutionism

the age of the earth young versus old

the six days of creation 24 hours or long evolutionary periods?

icons religious artwork versus no icons

how many books in the Bible 66 only, or 76/77 including the so-called Apocrypha

nephilim the children and Seth's sons and Cain's daughters, or children of humans and fallen angels (demons)

the papal infallibility versus no papal infallibility

Scripture alone versus Scripture and (in) Tradition

Jesus Christ is God versus Jesus Christ is not God

God the Holy Trinity versus Oneness of God

capital punishment versus no capital punishment

just war tradition versus pacifism

born again by water baptism (baptismal regeneration) versus born again by personal decision for Christ (decisional regeneration)

Eastern Orthodox versus Oriental Orthodox controversy

traditional Christianity versus non-Christian cults (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongism, etc.)

Any other controversy you are actually interested, or do you try to avoid all controversies?

Or do you admit that somebody is bound to find some Christian belief or claimed to be Christian belief controversial or uncertain?

God bless you.

In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

Nope, no interest as of now.
One has enough to do following, witnessing,praying, servng in, obeying, living Holy, living, praising,
thanking, and loving Jesus!

God bless
pickles

 

[Lad]

So for the ones i find interesting Im going to share my view and for the ones i know nothing about ill put 'idk' and youll have my opinion

Calvinism versus Arminianism.... well this is a difficult one, i dont know where i stand on predestination yet but I know I believe in Resistable Grace and I dont believe in Once saved always saved, and i also believe in Universal atonement.

Roman Catholicism versus the various Protestant denominations (Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian-Reformed, Methodist)....I definitely believe in christianity not catholicism

speaking in tongues Pentecostalism/charismatic renewal versus cessationism of spiritual gifts I think a balance is needed here... I believe in tongues but not in spiritual languages and I believe we can combine both charasmatic beliefs and evangelical beliefs to create a good christianity

infant baptism versus Baptist beliefs I believe in believers baptism

pre-tribulation rapture versus mid tribulation or post-tribulation rapture Def post-trib

dispensationalism versus covenant theology Covenant theology, its what the apostles believed too

justification by faith alone versus justification by faith which worketh by love (faith and works) Justification by faith alone, and works come naturally

Eastern Orthodoxy versus Roman Catholicism (or versus Protestantism) idk what easter orthodoxy teaches

seven sacraments versus two sacraments :O there are 7? lol

single procession of the Holy Spirit versus double procession of the Spirit (Filioque) ummm is this like baptism of the Spirit versus Spirit coming completely at salvation? cos if so then double.

single predestination versus double predestination (Calvinism) idk

existence or non-existence of free will existence

existence of God and proofs for this, versus believing in God without needing proofs Def proofs of this, the facts are everywhere and without them ppl have blind faith which is very dangerous for it could lead to unbelief seeing as there is no foundation to fall back on when doubts come. (thats what happened to me)

the truth or falsity of the Shroud of Turin i believe its false

the truth or falsity of the visions of Our Lady of Lourdes or Our Lady of Fatima or Our Lady of Medjugorje never heard of em

Sunday worship versus Sabbatarianism (Seventh-day Adventist belief) I believe EVERYDAY is Gods Day and that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath when He was created so as i said everyday is to be holy and consecrated to the Lord

creationism and intelligence design versus evolutionism and even theistic evolutionism Theistic evolution and the big bang but not macro evolution

the age of the earth young versus old More young than old

the six days of creation 24 hours or long evolutionary periods? I believe in neither, I believe in 'god days' that God took however long he needed to do what he wanted and that was the day.

icons religious artwork versus no icons icons as long as they dont depict Jesus or God in anyway and dont become idols

how many books in the Bible 66 only, or 76/77 including the so-called Apocrypha 66

nephilim the children and Seth's sons and Cain's daughters, or children of humans and fallen angels (demons) children of demons and women

the papal infallibility versus no papal infallibility papal infallibility, he is a man after all

Scripture alone versus Scripture and (in) Tradition idk what you mean

Jesus Christ is God versus Jesus Christ is not God the full deity and humanity of Jesus

God the Holy Trinity versus Oneness of God God the trinity

capital punishment versus no capital punishment capital punishment

just war tradition versus pacifism i personally am a pacifist but I believe in wars initiated or commanded by God

born again by water baptism (baptismal regeneration) versus born again by personal decision for Christ (decisional regeneration) um both?

Eastern Orthodox versus Oriental Orthodox controversy idk

traditional Christianity versus non-Christian cults (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongism, etc.)traditional christianity


Any other controversy you are actually interested, or do you try to avoid all controversies? I focus on the controversies that may harm my glorifying of God and decide which is biblical and which isnt. Why avoid them when we can decide which is correct through proper interpretation of the bible? However I dont believe in trying to argue ur points to others. Spiritual orderly loving debates are fine and nice discussion is good but not arguing with pride or hate.

Or do you admit that somebody is bound to find some Christian belief or claimed to be Christian belief controversial or uncertain? yeah there are many controversies but not all of christianity is.

God bless you.

In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

So there ya go thats what I believe. Thanks for the list it was very helpful for me firming what i believe

 

[Scotth1960]

Dear Zone, All of the stuff you mention below is heterodox, Roman Catholic, and not EO (Eastern Orthodox). Those people you mention below are supposed "saints" of Roman Catholicism, and are not considered saints by the Eastern Orthodox Church. If a person makes a photograph of family members, is it pagan idolatry? The Amish forbid all images. Most Protestants have images of their family members in photographs. They don't worship them. They love the one depicted. That is what the Orthodox do. They love the one depicted. So kissing an icon is a symbol of kissing the person who is pictured. It isn't idolatry. Anyway, the Protestants forbid icons of Eastern Orthodox saints and of Jesus and the Virgin Mary. But then they make paintings and images of the Protestant Reformers, John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, etc. They even make statues of these men and put them in public places in Geneva, Switzerland, for all to admire. Is that idolatry? Why is it wrong to make images of Orthodox saints and of Jesus and Mary ever-virgin, but it's okay to make images of Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox, and why is it okay to make statues of them, when Scripture forbids graven (carved/three dimensional) images? Go figure. To answer your question, zone, all of the people and images below are NOT Eastern Orthodox. Take care. God bless you. In Erie PA June 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington


ok.
thanks.

you didnt say how the guy in the church kissing and bowing down to an icon is ok, but whatevah

we'll never ever agree on that particular issue, since its pagan idolatry dressed up as Christian and everybody knows it.

please refrain from slamming the reformed faith if possible over the word ALONE, okay? i'd rather accept that Luther added that word (which changed nothing)

Dear Zone, Luther addiing the word "alone" did change the meaning of the Scriptures, and made Romans 3:28 contradict James 2:24! Thus, the Bible is falsified and in error because of Martin Luther's ERROR of "sola fide". Justification is "not by faith alone" (James 2:24).
In Erie Scott R. Harrington

than face east, chant, wave censors and kiss icons that portay all manner of beast and what not and groove on bones in church and say its cool.

it isn't.

take care.
zone
(plus you are unable to resolve the Shroud of Turin without supressing scripture, so i must REJECT infallibilty by tradition - to each his own.

i realize this is Roman (are there any EO examples on the list?)....but HOW is the display of mummified corpses revering saints?

Incorrupt Saints on Display


ZONE,THESE ARE NOT SAINTS OF THE ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH. THESE ARE PEOPLE IN SCHISM FROM THE HOLY CHURCH. IN ERIE SCOTT HARRINGTON
PS THEY ARE ALL IN ERROR AND IN SCHISM BECAUSE THEY SAY "AND THE SON" (FILIOQUE), BELIEVE IN THE "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION" OF MARY AND IN PURGATORY, A NON-EXISTENT PLACE, AND THEY BELIEVE IN THE IDOLATRY OF PAPAL INFALLIBILITY. HERESY.

• St. Andrew Bobola
  Church of St. Andrew Bobola, Warsaw, Poland
  Died in 1657, discovered incorrupt 1697.
• St. Bernadette Soubirous
  Convent of St. Gildard, Nevers, France
  The visionary of Lourdes, died 1879. Surely the most beautiful corpse you'll ever see (with some help from wax).
• Mother Cabriani
  Mother Cabrini High School Chapel, New York City, USA
  Italian-born nun, died in Chicago 1917.
• St. Catherine Labouré
  Chapel, Rue du Bac, Paris, France
  A Mary visionary, exhumed after 56 years.
• St. Catherine of Bologna
  Died 1463, has been on display in an upright position for over 500 years.
• St. Clare of Assisi
  Basilica di Santa Chiara, Assisi, Italy
  Died 1253.
• St. Clare of Montefalco
  Church of the Holy Cross, Montefalco, Italy
  Body and heart with cross imprint enshrined separately.
• Dashi-Dorzho Itigilov
  Ivolginsky Datsan, Siberia, Russia
  A rare Buddhist example: a monk who died in the lotus position in 1927 and remains seated and undecayed today.
• St. Etheldreda
  St Etheldreda’s Catholic Church, Ely, England
  Just her hand is on display.
• St. Francis Xavier
  Basilica of Bom Jesus, Goa, India
  Most of incorrupt body on display in a silver casket.
• St. John Vianney
  Shrine of St. John Vianney, Ars, France
  Beloved parish priest of Ars, died 1859, exhumed 1904.
• St. Padre Pio
  San Giovanni Rotondo, Southern Italy
  Died 1968. Exhumed and temporarily(?) on display from April 24, 2008 to mark the 40th anniversary of his death.
• Pope John XXIII
  St. Peter's Basilica, Vatican City
  On display in a glass casket.
• Blessed Paula Frassinetti
  Chapel of the Convent of Santa Dorotea in Rome, Italy
  Died in 1882, exhumed 1906.
• St. Rita of Cascia
  Basilica of St Rita, Cascia, Italy
  The patron saint of hopeless cases, died 1457. Her body has been seen in different positions in the glass case and her eyes have opened and closed unaided.
• St. Sperandia
  Benedictine Convent, Cingoli, Italy
  Died 1276, exhumed eight times, the last in 1952. Said to exude a sweet fragrance ("odor of sanctity").
• St. Teresa Margaret
  Monastery of St. Teresa, Florence, Italy
  Died 1770, exhumed 1783.
• St. Vincent Pallotti
  Church of St. Salvatore, Onda, Italy
  Died 1850, exhumed 1906 and 1950.
• St. Zita
  Basilica of St. Frediano, Lucca, Italy
  Died 1278.

~

this is EO...correct?

asking a DEAD person to pray for you?



March 17th
Troparion (Tone 3)
O holy hierarch, Patrick, wonderworker, equal to the Apostles and illuminator of the Irish people, pray to the merciful God that He will pardon our transgressions.

Patrick was British by birth, born about 373, the son of a deacon and the grandson of a priest. His first trip to Ireland was as a slave, having been kidnapped by Irish pirates. He managed to run away and eventually made his way back to England. He was then sent as bishop to Ireland around 435, setting up his see in Armagh. He had sincere simplicity and deep pastoral care and worked tirelessly to abolish paganism. He is often depicted with a shamrock which he used to explain the Trinity. His scroll reads: "I arise today through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity."
This is by the hand of Nicholas Papas. It is from St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church, Oakland, PA.

Order # sgp-07
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ya and the shamrock means the trinity - uh huh....the shamrock is occult majik coincidentally....and what's with the HAND SIGN?

do you know what exactly is being passed down through TRADITIONS? I DO.

~


AND PLEASE TELL ME IF THIS IS EASTERN ORTHODOXY?

to make an image (icon) of a JACKAL, call it saint Christopher and REVERE IT?

AN ABOMINATION. ROMAN CATHOLIC HERESY. NOT FROM THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH.

 

[Scotth1960]

Dear Zone, I don't know where you got the jackal-headed picture. That is strange. What is strange is Calvinists protesting against icons, and then making statues in Geneva, Switzerland, of John Calvin.
There are 4 statues of Farel, Calvin, Beza, and Knox in Switzerland.
see:
http:// Reformation Wall - Geneva, Switzerland

That is the Reformation Wall in Geneva Swizterland. Calvinist idolatry. Go figure. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington June 2011 AD

ok.
thanks.

you didnt say how the guy in the church kissing and bowing down to an icon is ok, but whatevah

we'll never ever agree on that particular issue, since its pagan idolatry dressed up as Christian and everybody knows it.

please refrain from slamming the reformed faith if possible over the word ALONE, okay? i'd rather accept that Luther added that word (which changed nothing) than face east, chant, wave censors and kiss icons that portay all manner of beast and what not and groove on bones in church and say its cool.

it isn't.

take care.
zone
(plus you are unable to resolve the Shroud of Turin without supressing scripture, so i must REJECT infallibilty by tradition - to each his own.

i realize this is Roman (are there any EO examples on the list?)....but HOW is the display of mummified corpses revering saints?

Incorrupt Saints on Display

• St. Andrew Bobola
  Church of St. Andrew Bobola, Warsaw, Poland
  Died in 1657, discovered incorrupt 1697.
• St. Bernadette Soubirous
  Convent of St. Gildard, Nevers, France
  The visionary of Lourdes, died 1879. Surely the most beautiful corpse you'll ever see (with some help from wax).
• Mother Cabriani
  Mother Cabrini High School Chapel, New York City, USA
  Italian-born nun, died in Chicago 1917.
• St. Catherine Labouré
  Chapel, Rue du Bac, Paris, France
  A Mary visionary, exhumed after 56 years.
• St. Catherine of Bologna
  Died 1463, has been on display in an upright position for over 500 years.
• St. Clare of Assisi
  Basilica di Santa Chiara, Assisi, Italy
  Died 1253.
• St. Clare of Montefalco
  Church of the Holy Cross, Montefalco, Italy
  Body and heart with cross imprint enshrined separately.
• Dashi-Dorzho Itigilov
  Ivolginsky Datsan, Siberia, Russia
  A rare Buddhist example: a monk who died in the lotus position in 1927 and remains seated and undecayed today.
• St. Etheldreda
  St Etheldreda’s Catholic Church, Ely, England
  Just her hand is on display.
• St. Francis Xavier
  Basilica of Bom Jesus, Goa, India
  Most of incorrupt body on display in a silver casket.
• St. John Vianney
  Shrine of St. John Vianney, Ars, France
  Beloved parish priest of Ars, died 1859, exhumed 1904.
• St. Padre Pio
  San Giovanni Rotondo, Southern Italy
  Died 1968. Exhumed and temporarily(?) on display from April 24, 2008 to mark the 40th anniversary of his death.
• Pope John XXIII
  St. Peter's Basilica, Vatican City
  On display in a glass casket.
• Blessed Paula Frassinetti
  Chapel of the Convent of Santa Dorotea in Rome, Italy
  Died in 1882, exhumed 1906.
• St. Rita of Cascia
  Basilica of St Rita, Cascia, Italy
  The patron saint of hopeless cases, died 1457. Her body has been seen in different positions in the glass case and her eyes have opened and closed unaided.
• St. Sperandia
  Benedictine Convent, Cingoli, Italy
  Died 1276, exhumed eight times, the last in 1952. Said to exude a sweet fragrance ("odor of sanctity").
• St. Teresa Margaret
  Monastery of St. Teresa, Florence, Italy
  Died 1770, exhumed 1783.
• St. Vincent Pallotti
  Church of St. Salvatore, Onda, Italy
  Died 1850, exhumed 1906 and 1950.
• St. Zita
  Basilica of St. Frediano, Lucca, Italy
  Died 1278.

~

this is EO...correct?

asking a DEAD person to pray for you?



March 17th
Troparion (Tone 3)
O holy hierarch, Patrick, wonderworker, equal to the Apostles and illuminator of the Irish people, pray to the merciful God that He will pardon our transgressions.

Patrick was British by birth, born about 373, the son of a deacon and the grandson of a priest. His first trip to Ireland was as a slave, having been kidnapped by Irish pirates. He managed to run away and eventually made his way back to England. He was then sent as bishop to Ireland around 435, setting up his see in Armagh. He had sincere simplicity and deep pastoral care and worked tirelessly to abolish paganism. He is often depicted with a shamrock which he used to explain the Trinity. His scroll reads: "I arise today through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity."
This is by the hand of Nicholas Papas. It is from St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church, Oakland, PA.

Order # sgp-07
Check out other saints of the British Isles.
How to Order

Home

Copyright

Price List

Next Saint Icon​

© "Come and See" Icons, Books & Art​

ya and the shamrock means the trinity - uh huh....the shamrock is occult majik coincidentally....and what's with the HAND SIGN?

do you know what exactly is being passed down through TRADITIONS? I DO.

~


AND PLEASE TELL ME IF THIS IS EASTERN ORTHODOXY?

to make an image (icon) of a JACKAL, call it saint Christopher and REVERE IT?

AN ABOMINATION.