I have heard some Christians asserting that all of the ancient gods were actually individual demons, but you can understand, I am sure, why I would just see this as another unsupported belief; but you are making the claim instead that the hundreds of gods in antiquity were all really incarnations of just one fallen angel? I suppose you have a biblical passage that you think lends credence to this particular belief you hold?
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Satan has always made statements that are true, but it has the lie stuck right in there. That is how he gets you to buy the lie. Satan knows the scriptures better than we do and if we are not careful, he uses the truth that we do know to trick us into believing the lie. This is the danger of many of Satan's lies. We see from the very beginning when Satan tells Eve that the fruit will give her knowledge. She did receive knowledge, but as it turned out she did not gain anything, but lost what was most important.
"And what is Faith? Faith gives substance (or assurance) to our hopes, and makes us certain of realities we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1 NEB). What this passage states is that faith gives certitude to beliefs that are not supported by evidence. If there was hard evidence you would not require faith. Faith is the assurance that your beliefs are true even in the absence of evidence. Many Christians do seem to make a virtue out of having faith. Atheists question because we do not see any evidence for the claims being made. If we possessed faith we would not ask to see evidence. Thomas lacked faith and that is why he needed to see the wounds on Christ's body for himself. You are saying you would not have asked to see the wounds, you would have believed without seeing the physical proof, without the evidence. That is the nature of faith and that is the meaning of Hebrews 11:1.
I think that too often we, as Christians, respond in anger. That is not evidence of God, but evidence that we are human. God is Love and I believe it is the greatest testimony of God. Yes, God can show wrath, but ultimately He is Love. We must show the love and leave vengeance for God (that is not a threat, Cycel; I don't like that approach).
S
In the Greek it says that faith is also 'the proof' of things not seen. We have the proof by our faith. I think that's clear from what Hebrews 11:1b is stating. Not only does faith gives us the assurance of our hope, but it is the very evidence of it. After Thomas touched Him, Jesus said this, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." (John 20:29 NAS).
Things can be different with the Christian deity than with a array of idols because people distort true information. Truth about the Christian Deity has been readily denied, distorted and forgotten by many.
The true God is One who is worthy of glory, honor/honour and obedience and to whom repentance, faith and trust are owed. People can easily live in denial of that and "believe what they want to believe".
Polytheism, pantheism and, I think, atheism are all forms of evading the truth about one true, Triune God.
Ancient generations who lived closer to the time of Genesis events were capable of quickly distorting and forgetting the truth.
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:25)
Ethical standards of professional journalism require that facts be checked and double-checked before they are published. I have seen misinformation published in newspapers about events that were less than one day old.
The true God is One who is worthy of glory, honor/honour and obedience and to whom repentance, faith and trust are owed. People can easily live in denial of that and "believe what they want to believe".
Polytheism, pantheism and, I think, atheism are all forms of evading the truth about one true, Triune God.
Ancient generations who lived closer to the time of Genesis events were capable of quickly distorting and forgetting the truth.
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:25)
Ethical standards of professional journalism require that facts be checked and double-checked before they are published. I have seen misinformation published in newspapers about events that were less than one day old.
Then it is also possible that Satan did not exist as the incarnation of these different gods? You are saying that it might simply be that the ancients imagined their gods existed, but that in reality there was nothing there? This last view is the one I hold. What seems more likely to you that Satan was busy answering pagan prayers to convince them of the reality of their gods, or that their occasional prayer was fulfilled just by happenstance?
I have a story. In her personal memoir, Prisoner of Tehran, Marina Nemat tells of her arrest at the age of 16 and of her forced conversion to Islam and her forced marriage to one of her torturers. Her Islamic sister-in-law confided in her of her unsuccessful prayers to Allah for a first child. Marina related to her the experience of her Christian aunt, who in a similar circumstance, prayed to the Virgin Mary for a child, and had her prayers answered. The Muslim woman did as Marina suggested, and in a short time she found herself pregnant. Both Marina and her sister-in-law credited the Virgin with the successful pregnancy.
I see three possible explanations for the pregnancy:
i) There was no supernatural intervention of any kind. The woman just happened to get pregnant and the personal faith of the women involved led them both of them to believe wrongly that prayers had been answered. (The view of any secularist rooted in scientific understanding).
ii) The Virgin Mary intervened. (The women’s interpretation, based upon faith).
iii) Satan intervened to make them think the Virgin Mary had intervened. (The position you tentatively proposed to explain why pagan prayers were answered).
I have a story. In her personal memoir, Prisoner of Tehran, Marina Nemat tells of her arrest at the age of 16 and of her forced conversion to Islam and her forced marriage to one of her torturers. Her Islamic sister-in-law confided in her of her unsuccessful prayers to Allah for a first child. Marina related to her the experience of her Christian aunt, who in a similar circumstance, prayed to the Virgin Mary for a child, and had her prayers answered. The Muslim woman did as Marina suggested, and in a short time she found herself pregnant. Both Marina and her sister-in-law credited the Virgin with the successful pregnancy.
I see three possible explanations for the pregnancy:
i) There was no supernatural intervention of any kind. The woman just happened to get pregnant and the personal faith of the women involved led them both of them to believe wrongly that prayers had been answered. (The view of any secularist rooted in scientific understanding).
ii) The Virgin Mary intervened. (The women’s interpretation, based upon faith).
iii) Satan intervened to make them think the Virgin Mary had intervened. (The position you tentatively proposed to explain why pagan prayers were answered).
P
See, you have something here. Thing is, most people don't know and understand faith. It isn't a religious word. Every person alive, that has any cognizance of their surroundings, has faith of some kind. I have faith when I walk out to my truck in a few minutes it will start when I turn the key. Nothing religious about that.
Saying christians think it is a virtue that is reserved for them is so true in so many instances. Christians have a tendency to think they are better people than sinners. Not even close to being true. A real Christian has the knowledge that they are no better than the worst person on earth. If Christ saves a child rapist/murderer, that person is just as saved as the Godliest person in the world.
Faith is exactly what the bible says it is. That is a true definition and one that cannot be explained better. I am a mechanic. I know what it takes to make a vehicle go down the road. I know about every part of a car, from the front bumper to the rear. I know that everything it requires for an engine to start is on my pickup , and in the condition it needs to start. That knowledge gives me more solid faith than what a dentist has when he turns his key.
There is a difference in the amount of faith one can have, but we all have it some shape or form. Knowledge increases faith.
In Matthew 17:20, Christ said "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you"
In Luke 17:5 we read "And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith"......Faith in God is a prerequisite for Him to act on our request.
Saying christians think it is a virtue that is reserved for them is so true in so many instances. Christians have a tendency to think they are better people than sinners. Not even close to being true. A real Christian has the knowledge that they are no better than the worst person on earth. If Christ saves a child rapist/murderer, that person is just as saved as the Godliest person in the world.
Faith is exactly what the bible says it is. That is a true definition and one that cannot be explained better. I am a mechanic. I know what it takes to make a vehicle go down the road. I know about every part of a car, from the front bumper to the rear. I know that everything it requires for an engine to start is on my pickup , and in the condition it needs to start. That knowledge gives me more solid faith than what a dentist has when he turns his key.
There is a difference in the amount of faith one can have, but we all have it some shape or form. Knowledge increases faith.
In Matthew 17:20, Christ said "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you"
In Luke 17:5 we read "And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith"......Faith in God is a prerequisite for Him to act on our request.
I understood what you've said but I disagree with you comparing Christ to Zeus. So, I guess I wanted to remind you what we believe. Here, I quote from the Nicene Creed to make it more obvious:
"He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate
and suffered and was burried
And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures"
The point I am trying to make is that we believe the man Jesus Christ (who suffered under Pontius Pilate) is God. We believe in His resurrection. Christ is not a "religious figure" (like Zeus), but an historical one (!!!).
Christianity depends on the resurrection of Christ, not on His existence.
"He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate
and suffered and was burried
And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures"
The point I am trying to make is that we believe the man Jesus Christ (who suffered under Pontius Pilate) is God. We believe in His resurrection. Christ is not a "religious figure" (like Zeus), but an historical one (!!!).
Christianity depends on the resurrection of Christ, not on His existence.
Yes there is "Such thing as an atheist" until They are revealed there is a God, and are faced with to beleive or not believe and know what they choose. Once this choice is made, whether to believe or not believe, Then there are no atheist's, for even the Demons believe and know God is real, Christ as the exact representation of the Father that they are one
Problem is, no exercising of this believe shows the choice made consciously to serving self over Father through Son
So today whom will one serve God or mammon. This world is made up of Mammon, Money as the God of this world, and man serves it to the point in dishonesty, which I have past tense done, and do not desire to ever do that again over trying to save my life here on earth
Anyway love to us all from God the creator of all, whom loves us all the same, not one better than the other, For Chirst went to the cross for us all to give us new life in Spirit and truth to love all the same. To trust Father for all our needs, not having to use lies, cheats, or anything to save one's life in dishonesty
Problem is, no exercising of this believe shows the choice made consciously to serving self over Father through Son
So today whom will one serve God or mammon. This world is made up of Mammon, Money as the God of this world, and man serves it to the point in dishonesty, which I have past tense done, and do not desire to ever do that again over trying to save my life here on earth
Anyway love to us all from God the creator of all, whom loves us all the same, not one better than the other, For Chirst went to the cross for us all to give us new life in Spirit and truth to love all the same. To trust Father for all our needs, not having to use lies, cheats, or anything to save one's life in dishonesty
Very interesting outlook not too dissimilar from mine, though I'd nuance the three possibilities here.
1. There was no supernatural intervention of any kind. The woman just happened to get pregnant and the personal faith of the women involved led them both of them to believe wrongly that prayers had been answered. (The view of any secularist rooted in scientific understanding).
2. The Lord Christ Jesus opened her womb on behalf of prayer
3. Not applicable since Satan cannot answer prayers nor can he create life.
1. There was no supernatural intervention of any kind. The woman just happened to get pregnant and the personal faith of the women involved led them both of them to believe wrongly that prayers had been answered. (The view of any secularist rooted in scientific understanding).
2. The Lord Christ Jesus opened her womb on behalf of prayer
3. Not applicable since Satan cannot answer prayers nor can he create life.
Hi Homwardbound,
Yes, until then. Once I have the evidence before me then I will believe, but that is all I have asked for all along. It makes more sense to supply the evidence while I am living than to wait till I am dead. Don't you think?
You mentioned demons, and I just wonder now, what are they? Do you perceive them as fallen angels? Presumably God's angels were beings of light and possessors of great beauty, so if demons are simply turn-cloak angels, would they still not look like angels? Did their rejection of God somehow cause them to become misshapen?
Yes, until then. Once I have the evidence before me then I will believe, but that is all I have asked for all along. It makes more sense to supply the evidence while I am living than to wait till I am dead. Don't you think?
You mentioned demons, and I just wonder now, what are they? Do you perceive them as fallen angels? Presumably God's angels were beings of light and possessors of great beauty, so if demons are simply turn-cloak angels, would they still not look like angels? Did their rejection of God somehow cause them to become misshapen?
I didn't mention Jesus because it was to the Virgin Mary that the prayers were offered. Marina Nemat had been Catholic before her forced conversion to Islam at the age of sixteen and so naturally prayers to enhance fertility would have been offered to the Mother of God.
Does it say in scripture that Satan cannot influence a pregnancy? Certainly Satan could be aware of a prayer. All he need do is listen.
Does it say in scripture that Satan cannot influence a pregnancy? Certainly Satan could be aware of a prayer. All he need do is listen.
Oh, that's what this is about. I was actually meaning to make the comparison with God, not Christ, though you see them as one and the same, I don't.
I do know all this, but it is not pertinent to my point. I still recognize no more evidence for God than I do for Zeus. Jesus, the man, walked this Earth, but I don't believe he was more than a man and his presence in history I do not see as evidence of God. You may not know, by comparison, that Olympias claimed that Zeus had fathered her son Alexander and not her husband, Philip. Zeus was said to have fathered a number of children throughout Greece, but I don't see this as evidence that he existed.
Either there is evidence for God and Zeus or there isn't. I just don't see any, though I have looked rather long and hard hoping to find some (I should note that I haven’t actually looked for any evidence for the existence of Zeus), but the comparison is still well and good.
I never said otherwise.
I do know all this, but it is not pertinent to my point. I still recognize no more evidence for God than I do for Zeus. Jesus, the man, walked this Earth, but I don't believe he was more than a man and his presence in history I do not see as evidence of God. You may not know, by comparison, that Olympias claimed that Zeus had fathered her son Alexander and not her husband, Philip. Zeus was said to have fathered a number of children throughout Greece, but I don't see this as evidence that he existed.
Either there is evidence for God and Zeus or there isn't. I just don't see any, though I have looked rather long and hard hoping to find some (I should note that I haven’t actually looked for any evidence for the existence of Zeus), but the comparison is still well and good.
I never said otherwise.