Is there such a thing as an atheist?

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kennethcadwell

Guest
Percepi you misunderstand me, I am not claiming victory over nobody or arguing/debating. I was just posting a source that talked about the issue mentioned at hand at the time.

I understand the reverse is also true, and that it is a worthless argument until true hard evidence is found. Which none has over the years.

Have you ever wondered why an atheist would say something like this? Maybe you should understand why he says he can't disprove God before you automatically claim victory.

Dawkins, as well as many other atheists, admit that it's impossible to disprove the existence of God. I mean, if you claim a being exists, is not visible to humans, and is omnipotent, then how could you possibly disprove such an entity?

The fact you believe you stumped atheists by quoting Dawkins just shows us that you lack an understanding of how evidence works, and who the burden of proof falls on.

There are a near infinite number of things we can't disprove. That doesn't mean those things are real. This is why we don't waste our time deeming something as true until proven otherwise. We only focus on that which is provable.

Dawkins would also likely claim it's impossible to disprove the existence of Vishnu, Ra, as well as Yahweh. He might also argue it's impossible to disprove the existence of an invisible space elephant floating around Neptune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KayBys8gaJY
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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Exactly what claim do you imagine I made that you would accuse me of being a liar? I simply said that "a man with one leg waking up in the morning with two legs, or conjoined twins waking up in the morning as two separate individuals, or a person with Downs Syndrome waking in the morning with their DNA returned to normal" would be examples of true miracles. Is that a lie? No, it is not. Next I stated that events such as these three mentioned true miracles never happen. Is that a lie? No, it is not. I have never heard of any of these three things happening, but if you think they have then I would like to see the evidence.

Mustaphadrink, me thinks you tend to get carried away with the truth.
'I' have never heard of these three things happening....is where you fall down on your hypothesis. 'I' have never heard suggests that because you have never heard then it cannot happen but you ignore the golden rule that one person's opinion does not a body of research make. But 'I' have noticed that your posts are littered with 'I' have or 'I' haven't so 'I' guess we have to accept you are a world authority because 'I' is the measure of all truth and ahem, evidence.

Lets see how you deal with this one. 'I' read about two student missionaries in Malawi who visited a village and preached the good news of Jesus to them. The villagers listened to what they say and then one of them came forward with her dead baby in her arms and asked them "Can your Jesus bring my son back to life. The witch doctors have tried and failed."

The girls were somewhat perplexed as they had never done this sort of thing before but in their heart they knew that their preaching would have no validity unless they could being the baby back to life.They took the baby from the mother and sat down and started to pray for the baby to come alive. In a short space of time the baby opened his eyes and started breathing.

As a result of this happening the mother and the village embraced the teachings of Jesus and ditched their animism.

Now as 'I' read this and 'I' know that the ministry these girls were operating out from regularly sees miracles happen, then 'I' know that they do happen and 'I' know that this is the truth.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Do you remember where you read that, I like to read stories like that. Just like the old woman who from 2004 to 2007 went to several doctors about her terminal cancer, one of which told her to go home and prepare to die. She started going to a church in 2007 as requested by her friends. They prayed over her and when she went to a follow up doctor appointment they found no sign of the cancer.

'I' have never heard of these three things happening....is where you fall down on your hypothesis. 'I' have never heard suggests that because you have never heard then it cannot happen but you ignore the golden rule that one person's opinion does not a body of research make. But 'I' have noticed that your posts are littered with 'I' have or 'I' haven't so 'I' guess we have to accept you are a world authority because 'I' is the measure of all truth and ahem, evidence.

Lets see how you deal with this one. 'I' read about two student missionaries in Malawi who visited a village and preached the good news of Jesus to them. The villagers listened to what they say and then one of them came forward with her dead baby in her arms and asked them "Can your Jesus bring my son back to life. The witch doctors have tried and failed."

The girls were somewhat perplexed as they had never done this sort of thing before but in their heart they knew that their preaching would have no validity unless they could being the baby back to life.They took the baby from the mother and sat down and started to pray for the baby to come alive. In a short space of time the baby opened his eyes and started breathing.

As a result of this happening the mother and the village embraced the teachings of Jesus and ditched their animism.

Now as 'I' read this and 'I' know that the ministry these girls were operating out from regularly sees miracles happen, then 'I' know that they do happen and 'I' know that this is the truth.
 
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Kerry

Guest
Flying spaghetti is when my wife throws a strand against the fridge to see if it will and if it sticks then it's done.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
What they do is present Jesus sans-Michael evangelically on the front end and later they introduce the heresy of Michael. Cults are disingenuous that way and also cults engage in a great deal of wordsmithing which allows them to use the same language of orthodox Christianity but assign their own fabricated heretical interpretations.

You're wrong: Jehovah's Witness teach that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel. That they are the same being. Here read it for yourself: Who Is Michael the Archangel? | Bible Teach

I use scholarly materials which include their materials, of course, but it's easier to link to online content than old books in my library:

"Being the only begotten Son of God... the Word would be a prince among all other creatures. In this office he [Christ] bore another name in heaven, which name is 'Michael' [the Archangel]... Other names were given to the Son in course of time" (The Truth Shall Make You Free, Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1943, 49).

"The true Scriptures speak of God's Son, the Word, as 'a god.' He is a 'mighty god,' but not the Almighty God, who is Jehovah" (The Truth Shall Make You Free, Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1943, 47).

"In other words, he was the first and direct creation of Jehovah God" (The Kingdom Is at Hand, Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1944,46-47, 49).

"The Bible shows that there is only one God... greater than His Son... and that the Son, as the Firstborn, Only-begotten, and 'the creation by God,' had a beginning. That the Father is greater and older than the Son is reasonable, easy to understand, and is what the Bible teaches" (From Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained, Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1958, 164).

"The very fact that he was sent proves he was not equal with God but was less than God his Father" ( MH, 41).

"Certainly the apostle John was not so unreasonable as to say that someone (the Word) was with some other individual ('God') and at the same time was that other individual ('God') " (MH, 53).

"Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the plainly states that in his pre-human existence, Jesus was a created spirit just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation" (Should You Believe in the Trinity?).

Etc... etc... etc... JV is loaded with heresy that Charles Taze Russell began fabricating after 1870.

Now here's an example of an old bible: Codex Sinaiticus - Home


And your false charge of polytheism reveals that you do not understand the most fundamental doctrine of Christianity: Who God is.

God is not both three and only one in the same sense. He is only one in nature (essence) but three in a different sense-in Persons. Three persons in one essence is no more a contradiction than are three corners on one triangle or three ones in one to the third power (1 X 1 X 1=1).

God has one what (nature) with three whos (persons). This is a mystery (cf. 1 Tim. 3:16) but not a contradiction.

To be contradictory God would have to be both three and only one at the same time and in the same sense; that is, He would have to be three Persons and yet only one Person at the same time and in the same sense. Or, He would have to be three Natures and yet only one Nature at the same time and in the same Sense. But this is not what the bible teaches and orthodox theologians claim which is:

(1) There is only one God.
(2) There are three distinct persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are God.
(3) There are three persons in this one God.

It's incorrect to call the Christian view of God polytheistic and its disingenuous to insist that orthodox Christian epistemology teaches that when it does not and never did.

I have very old sources on hand but they aren't in English so it's much easier reading for non-scholarly people, like yourself, to view modern scholars that do not stray from early orthodox Christian epistemology. Here's one example:

Further reading:



"Beisner provides a clear and concise review of the biblical and historical data regarding the development of the doctrine of the Trinity. He reviews key New Testament passages to show that the Trinity was presupposed or incidentally expressed by the apostles and the early church. He also shows that the concept of Trinity in unity, three distinct persons who are one God, was firmly entrenched in Christian thought by the late second century.

Finally, he discusses the origin and resolution of the Arian controversy in the fourth century. While a knowledge of Greek and Latin would be helpful to understand the significance of the controversial terms of that period, it is not essential. He shows that the Nicene Creed developed as a reaction against Arianism, which was a clear departure from earlier teaching, and contrary to many popular misconceptions, he also shows that the Nicene Creed prevailed in spite of Arian subterfuge and imperial opposition. Far from being imposed on the church by a small cadre of emperors and bishops, the Nicene-Constantinople Creed represented the organized and thoughtful consensus of the church regarding the nature of God."


No, they teach he is not God because that, in their view, is what most of the evidence of the New Testament points toward, and I would agree with them. You are getting your information on the Jehovah's Witnesses from Christian apologetic sources, that oppose the Witnesses. Why don't you read what the Witnesses themselves are saying?

They do not say that Jesus is actually the archangel Michael, they say references to Michael are actually references to Jesus. Michael is like a code word for Jesus. They, like many Christian members here interpret Jesus as the Primal Adam, but as a creation of God he cannot be God; however, they attempt to live their lives as purely as Jesus lived his, while on Earth, and they see him as the only route to salvation. They also believe that it is Jesus who must intercede for us before God.


I believe your Bible has also alters some things from the original Greek to better fit Christian belief. The Witnesses are no more polytheistic than you are. You believe in angels, demons, and a leader of the demons called Satan. You must also be polytheistic.


Yes, they do have Jesus.
 
Nov 22, 2013
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Atheism is a system created by those who have cut themselves off from God.
 
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Kerry

Guest
Atheist are servants of Satan, whether they know it or not. Just the cold hard fact.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
371
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Do you remember where you read that, I like to read stories like that. Just like the old woman who from 2004 to 2007 went to several doctors about her terminal cancer, one of which told her to go home and prepare to die. She started going to a church in 2007 as requested by her friends. They prayed over her and when she went to a follow up doctor appointment they found no sign of the cancer.
Sorry Ken but it was about 10 years ago. It was one of those things that stuck in my mind and being autistic some things never leave you. The story was provided by Iris Ministries in Malawi so check out their website and see what you can find.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
While some Christians eventually fall away from the truth into a false worldview, the vast majority of atheists abandoned atheism and most eventually do today as well.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/85887-there-such-thing-atheist-71.html#post1485728

Cicely Saunders abandoned atheism for Christianity and, as a result of her new worldview, saw a serious need for end of life care within medicine and pioneered hospice. Truly, a caring and fantastic lady who had some interesting stories to share about how atheists die on their way to heaven in contrast to genuine Christians who go to heaven.

And your assertion regarding the Great War (e.g. WWI) is disputed amongst historians simply because while the destruction and trauma caused by WWI did leave some disillusioned it also stimulated the Social Gospeler's reform efforts while simultaneously focusing the sweeping Pentecostal revival that had begun in American and Europe a decade before.

School districts vary widely. Where I live, the bias is toward progressive liberalism and atheism the latter which is couched in the language of "naturalism" and "reductive materialism." But then, where I live boys can use a girls bathroom in elementary school that have tumbled from the top to the bottom for academic performance and the response to that from the state was to focus on forcibly indoctrinating millions of children with the homosexual agenda as if that's going to somehow make them perform better academically.

Well, it's late here. Time to sleep.

I have little knowledge of that generation of atheists. Certainly some, like Lewis returned to the faith of their upbringing, but others did not. An obvious example would be Bertrand Russell. The Great War played a huge role in the disillusionment of that generation. I couldn’t find anything on-line about Cicely Saunders religious views. In what way do you see the "new atheists" as close minded. I must travel in a different crowd. None of the atheists I know are drug users nor alcoholics. What’s interesting too are stories of how devout Christians became atheists; for example: William Lobdell’s Losing My Religion and Dan Barker’s Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists. I don’t believe public schools teach atheism. Certainly that is not my experience. However, you are probably identifying the teaching of evolution with atheism. I came to atheism completely independently of any obvious external influence. How large was the sample? Personally, I find this very difficult to believe. I am highly sceptical of this claim. Can you point me directly to the pertinent information? For one thing, if a person’s life is not yet over how can anyone arrive at the conclusion that they are likely to return to faith before they die?
 
Aug 25, 2013
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*groan* I wish I hadn't. :p
Not to worry Tintin. I would have used the reference there anyway. The Flying Spaghetti Monster was created for use in just this type of instance. :)
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Atheism is a system created by those who have cut themselves off from God.
I lost belief in God maybe around age 12, at a time before I even knew their was a word for my condition. :) I didn't know any other atheists. In fact I actually believed, naively, that I might be the only person in the world who didn't believe. You see I was surrounded by believers. Atheism is not a system of belief Ihsomiet. It is simply the absence of belief in God. It needs no other qualifiers. If you want other descriptors than add to it a word like humanist, or perhaps secular humanist. Both these terms employ a whole range of ideas whereas atheist only carries with it only one.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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I've looked for him Homeward, but I couldn't locate him. I am often told that God reveals himself. Certainly many believers think they've spotted him, but I often wonder if one must first believe in order to see?
No matter what as a man thinks, (believes) whatever that is: is real period and yet one's emotions do not know what is real or error.
One's emotions predictably respond to whatever is in the minds eye at the time it is in there. Just get involved ib a favorite movie and see, how your own emotions predictably respond to whatever is going on in that movie.
If a scary one, and when something scary jumps out in a flash, our emotions respond as if it is actually happening when it is not
Or a love story, how we predictably cry, when we have feelings for wahtever is happening, in all truth it is not happening, but our minds eye is seeing it happen, and our emotion predictably follow what our mind is thinking at that time.
The emotions always follow thought
try to be angry without angry thoughts? Telol me one can have the emotion without thoughts to back it up, and or past experiences that remind us of bad times that are like post it notes in our head

So believing yes is seeing, no beleive no see. that simple, and can be construed as either real or false

And you have made your decision that if not tangible not real, correct?
If correct then since we all die physically, why live? if there is nothing after death in the flesh, why live?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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"Blessed are the pure in heart.."
-Jesus
That would be the creator of all, and all those Father blesses, which Father has blessed all through Son, just not all beleive this type of Love, to us all, I believe being the last choice to beleive or not after the Christ at the cross, especially the ascension, then the reception of the Holy Spirit, the same one that led Christ, amazing hah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, I guess I had to see I need this before I could believe this, for it is the ones that see this need seek it out and those that do not do not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Father I need you, 24/7 and thank you for Son, the way, the truth and the new life through Christ you gave me and all who change from unbelief to belief
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Cycel I would like to enter in here and say no you do not have to believe first to see Him. There are reports of non-believers world wide all of a sudden starting to have visions of our Lord.
Thomas had to see to believe and Jesus showed and wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Father you will do accordingly as I beleive you know what is to be done no matter what
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Check in Daniel 5 for your writing on the wall with Belshazzar.
Thank you

[h=3]Daniel 5:5[/h]Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Suddenly, as they were drinking from these cups, they saw the fingers of a man’s hand writing on the plaster of the wall opposite the lampstand. The king himself saw the fingers as they wrote.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Studies have shown that the rate of atheism rises with increased levels of education. Jews often are well educated, and certainly your Jews of note are probably better educated. Further to that, men are more likely to be atheists than women, and whites are more likely to be atheists than blacks. Perhaps it is all tied to education.
Rather than education, my thoughts are holier than thou people, arrogance, not loving all regardless, as God when here on earth through said this:
Luke 6:32Do you think you deserve credit for merely loving those who love you? Even the godless do that!

Many a men have claimed to join in as believers and their hearts are far from belief, and so I thank you Cycel for at least being honest to how you think