Is WOF of God or the devil?
- Thread starter know1
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Are you able to come up with a single scripture that supports your belief? You obviously are against the doctrine, saying that it don't work because, you say, it is a false doctrine. And yes, you could raise the dead with WOF, because it is not you doing the raising or healing. It is the word of God that does the work. Scripture please, anyone. Just one that I can look at.
"Could raise" or "it is certain to raise"? Its interesting that you are stepping carefully into "could". You believe its automatic and certain, dont you?
Because if you dont belive that, there is no reason to have this discussion.
Scripture to support what exactly? I have given you names - Job, Timotheus, Trophimus, Paul. Proving health is not any automatic certainty for a Christian, but a merciful gift.
Wealth as the right of a Christian is disproved by some many verses in the New Testament that I think you know them.
What else?
Because if you dont belive that, there is no reason to have this discussion.
Scripture to support what exactly? I have given you names - Job, Timotheus, Trophimus, Paul. Proving health is not any automatic certainty for a Christian, but a merciful gift.
Wealth as the right of a Christian is disproved by some many verses in the New Testament that I think you know them.
What else?
Last edited:
Okay, why don't we look at some of those promises together that you may show me how wrong I have it. Let's go to Mk 11:22 - 23 first, if that's okay.
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
My notes show verse 22 can also be interpreted to read, "Have the faith OF God".
The way I read that is, "This is how you use the faith of God".
Because Peter questioned how soon the tree withered. So Jesus is explaining how God's faith works in verse 23.
First Jesus says, "verily", which is to say "this is a true statement".
"That whosoever shall say unto..."
Are you a whosoever? Yup. So am I.
"shall [verbally] say unto...", I stop there because the promise of God is not about the mountain, but about how the faith of God works.
"and shall not doubt in his heart". James said not to let the man who waivers, which is the same as being double-minded, think that he should receive ANYTHING OF THE LORD. The same thing Jesus is saying you cannot do, if you what the mountain to literally move.
"but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass". Basically the same thing verse 24 states. To believe it's has been granted and it will come to pass.
"he shall have whatsoever he saith." This is self explanatory. Shall have means, you shall have, as in future tense, and whatsoever you say, means,... wait for it,..... Whatsoever you say.
That is one reason why I believe in WOF. Because, IT IS CLEARLY WRITTEN!!!!
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
My notes show verse 22 can also be interpreted to read, "Have the faith OF God".
The way I read that is, "This is how you use the faith of God".
Because Peter questioned how soon the tree withered. So Jesus is explaining how God's faith works in verse 23.
First Jesus says, "verily", which is to say "this is a true statement".
"That whosoever shall say unto..."
Are you a whosoever? Yup. So am I.
"shall [verbally] say unto...", I stop there because the promise of God is not about the mountain, but about how the faith of God works.
"and shall not doubt in his heart". James said not to let the man who waivers, which is the same as being double-minded, think that he should receive ANYTHING OF THE LORD. The same thing Jesus is saying you cannot do, if you what the mountain to literally move.
"but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass". Basically the same thing verse 24 states. To believe it's has been granted and it will come to pass.
"he shall have whatsoever he saith." This is self explanatory. Shall have means, you shall have, as in future tense, and whatsoever you say, means,... wait for it,..... Whatsoever you say.
That is one reason why I believe in WOF. Because, IT IS CLEARLY WRITTEN!!!!
The subject again, is about WOF, which I see you do not understand, nor do you know what it is about. Health and wealth are not the subject of discussion, which you continue to revert back to. WOF is.
Raising someone is neither automatic or certain, but conditional. What is certain and automatic, is that God will do what He said in His word. What is conditional are the promises of the word of God. For example, the condition for eternal life is to eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood. Without it, He said, you have no life in you. Which simply means one must be born again.
Now, what is your understanding of WOF?
Raising someone is neither automatic or certain, but conditional. What is certain and automatic, is that God will do what He said in His word. What is conditional are the promises of the word of God. For example, the condition for eternal life is to eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood. Without it, He said, you have no life in you. Which simply means one must be born again.
Now, what is your understanding of WOF?
Maybe you should take whats for you on the table and leave the other stuff for others, because there is surely something for you to feed on. You may not agree with all things said, but surely there is something. Maybe just simply an exhortation to trust in God and know that He is faithful and good. Thats something you can take.
L
First, let's put this in its proper perspective.
Originally Posted by trofimus
Because the teaching of WoF:
1. is not biblical
2. does not work in practical life
This is a summary of why we are so blind and stupid. I hope you understand now.
And my response.
The scriptures I list below are what I understand why many of you are so blind and stupid. For truly it is scriptural and it most certainly works. If it didn't, then you are not born again sir.
I was simply affirming what the other person admitted.
And tell me, if someone keeps running into the same tree repeatedly, wouldn't you say that person is blind and stupid? I would.
Not that it bothered me any, but were those comments you directed at me, a nice thing to say?
My point is that you ma'am have not been the most civil on this thread. The most civil on this thread probable is notmyown and BenFTW, and the friendliest, without question, has been HisHolly. Also, my comments were not directed at anyone in particular, but it was at those who have refused to look at the word of God. Because frankly I wonder how those who are against WOF, can believe as they do without ANY scripture to back it. What would you say if I were to do that? You have already said that it is MY doctrine, opinion, and that I don't comprehend the subject, when I am the only one giving scripture. Again, I have used scripture to back up what I have been saying from the beginning. Why not show me where I have misinterpreted or twisted the verses I listed, to prove me wrong. That's what I would do to prove someone else is wrong. That is if I understand the verse in question. So my question to you and others who disagree with the doctrine is, why do you hate it so, calling it a doctrine of devils, a heresy, a lie of the devil, a false doctrine, something that doesn't work, and the like, when you have absolutely nothing to back it up with, except personal experiences and that of others. So why don't you believe, when you confess to believe the bible. I have shown at least 4 or 5 different sets of scripture verses, and the bible says I only need two witnesses to make it true. Where are your witnesses? And if you don't understand what the doctrine is really about, as you don't, then all you have to do is ask me to explain it to you, and I would be more than happy to. From what I have seen thus far, only about two understand what it is about.
1. is not biblical
2. does not work in practical life
This is a summary of why we are so blind and stupid. I hope you understand now.
And my response.
The scriptures I list below are what I understand why many of you are so blind and stupid. For truly it is scriptural and it most certainly works. If it didn't, then you are not born again sir.
I was simply affirming what the other person admitted.
And tell me, if someone keeps running into the same tree repeatedly, wouldn't you say that person is blind and stupid? I would.
Not that it bothered me any, but were those comments you directed at me, a nice thing to say?
My point is that you ma'am have not been the most civil on this thread. The most civil on this thread probable is notmyown and BenFTW, and the friendliest, without question, has been HisHolly. Also, my comments were not directed at anyone in particular, but it was at those who have refused to look at the word of God. Because frankly I wonder how those who are against WOF, can believe as they do without ANY scripture to back it. What would you say if I were to do that? You have already said that it is MY doctrine, opinion, and that I don't comprehend the subject, when I am the only one giving scripture. Again, I have used scripture to back up what I have been saying from the beginning. Why not show me where I have misinterpreted or twisted the verses I listed, to prove me wrong. That's what I would do to prove someone else is wrong. That is if I understand the verse in question. So my question to you and others who disagree with the doctrine is, why do you hate it so, calling it a doctrine of devils, a heresy, a lie of the devil, a false doctrine, something that doesn't work, and the like, when you have absolutely nothing to back it up with, except personal experiences and that of others. So why don't you believe, when you confess to believe the bible. I have shown at least 4 or 5 different sets of scripture verses, and the bible says I only need two witnesses to make it true. Where are your witnesses? And if you don't understand what the doctrine is really about, as you don't, then all you have to do is ask me to explain it to you, and I would be more than happy to. From what I have seen thus far, only about two understand what it is about.
again, no scripture yet you consistently demand others supply it
you are simply posting wild emotional responses that do not begin to address a thing I said
why can't you actually notice I said I DO believe in healing and ALL the gifts?
what I don't agree with, is your chaotic and argumentative posts....you came out shooting in all directions and have not let up since
the fact I object to your runaway subjective desire to somehow shut everyone up so you can have your say, is not an attack
what that actually is, is observing your inability to discuss without flying off the handle...you did the same in the other thread and I am not sure I even responded to you in that one
anyway, this is ridiculous...you need to chill
I do know what WOF is all about....defend till the sun forgets to rise in the morning...it's not biblical
I am not sure some here are even defending what WOF is...they may just be defending scripture that myself and others actually agree with and accusing us of attacking WOF
this thread has gone nowhere as your purpose seems to be to have the last word...enjoy it
Last edited:
L
WOF is not about being reasonable
I have tried mulitple times in the other thread and a few times in this thread...stating I do believe God heals
however, that is overlooked
know1 just seems to want to continue to explode and throw words without being resonable, so this thread is basically a write off
unsuscribing now
Ok, let us see your reason.
Mk 11
1. Do you really think that when whosoever just says something and believes it, it will happen? Christian or not?
Probably not.
2. Do you think it is about every Christian? Ok, so why dont you move some mountain? Because it does not work for you, right?
3. Do you think apostles moved literal mountains? Probably not.
So, when we examine your evidence, we see that it was meant probably for apostles only and even they did not take it literally.
Mk 11
1. Do you really think that when whosoever just says something and believes it, it will happen? Christian or not?
Probably not.
2. Do you think it is about every Christian? Ok, so why dont you move some mountain? Because it does not work for you, right?
3. Do you think apostles moved literal mountains? Probably not.
So, when we examine your evidence, we see that it was meant probably for apostles only and even they did not take it literally.
Oh please know1? Yes, God gave the Apostle Paul the answer which clearly stated that His grace is sufficient for Paul to deal with the problem. God "DID NOT" eliminate the problem by guaranteeing complete healing as in Paul not having the problem anymore. This is what the wof "HERETICAL" teachers promote.
And you read every word of my post and where did I say anything like this? "Are you telling me that those who are withering away from a terminally wasting diseases, are being strengthened and sustained by God, when it kills them? Is the power of God resting on them who die from the sickness or disease? Do they believe and say they are strong by the power of God, while withering away?" Your taking what I said and how God operates out of context.
And why in the world are you bringing up Joel 3:10? What does this have to do with our discussion? Can you please exegete Joel 3 and tell me what it means? Now, since your bringing up the issue of Gods promises please tell me if the following verse is a promise from God? "1 John 3:9, "Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for (or because) his seed remaineth in him; and HE CANNOT SIN, HE IS BORN OF GOD." Are you able to keep this promise know1?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And you read every word of my post and where did I say anything like this? "Are you telling me that those who are withering away from a terminally wasting diseases, are being strengthened and sustained by God, when it kills them? Is the power of God resting on them who die from the sickness or disease? Do they believe and say they are strong by the power of God, while withering away?" Your taking what I said and how God operates out of context.
And why in the world are you bringing up Joel 3:10? What does this have to do with our discussion? Can you please exegete Joel 3 and tell me what it means? Now, since your bringing up the issue of Gods promises please tell me if the following verse is a promise from God? "1 John 3:9, "Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for (or because) his seed remaineth in him; and HE CANNOT SIN, HE IS BORN OF GOD." Are you able to keep this promise know1?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Absolutely!!! You mean to tell me that you really don't? What a shame. Sir, know it or not, you are calling Jesus a liar. These are not my words. They're Jesus'. And if Jesus said picking your nose would give you eternal life, then you better pick and pick hard, because that is exactly what one would have to do to have eternal life.
Okay, I know that went over the top, but my point is that God cannot ever fail to perform His word. Ever!!! It doesn't matter if you believe it or not,... unless you want it to work for you.
In order for a truth to be a truth or a law, it has to be consistent. 1+1 always has to =2. That is a basic truth/law for addition. If it ever stops equaling 2, it will no longer be a truth/law. The same holds true for ALL of God's promises. They are truths/laws that consistently work, and they cannot ever fail to work or perform as they are written. If any of them do, then they would cease to be a truth/law.
The truth or fact is, most times, it doesn't work for you, but against you, without you ever realizing it.
Everyone uses words of faith, many times in the day, every day. And you are no different. The problem is that you use it against yourself unwittingly, according to your worldly colored, carnally minded glasses. That is, according to HOW you see or perceive things. Yours just happens to be carnal and worldly. If it wasn't, then you would see things according to WHAT IS WRITTEN.
And to correct your understanding of the verse. It is not just whosoever says, as that would take the verse out of context, but whosoever use the faith of God, as it says in verse 22. So without the faith of God in operation, nothing will happen, as James 1 declares. As I said before, WOF will not work without faith, and neither will faith work without WOF.
On the contrary, it ALWAYS WORKS FOR ME.
Is the promise of eternal life to every person in the world? The answer is, no. It only goes to those who act on the word of God, according to Romans 10:9. The same holds true for all of God's promises. They are for, and will work toward those who act on them. If you don't receive them personally and act on them, they are not for you.
As for moving a literal mountain, yes, I moved one, or rather God did.
Does it matter? Regardless of what someone else does or does not do, has no bearing on the word of God. Doesn't matter what I think or what they did. If it is for me, then I'm going to get or do it, regardless of what the apostles did.
You can't stop looking at things through that carnal mind of yours, can you? Was Stephen an apostle? Yet he did GREAT wonders and miracles. Why didn't all the apostles perform great wonders and miracles like Stephen? After all, they're the APOSTLES. So neither do we have to be an apostle to do the same as Stephen.
Still no scripture to back up what you believe?
Okay, I know that went over the top, but my point is that God cannot ever fail to perform His word. Ever!!! It doesn't matter if you believe it or not,... unless you want it to work for you.
In order for a truth to be a truth or a law, it has to be consistent. 1+1 always has to =2. That is a basic truth/law for addition. If it ever stops equaling 2, it will no longer be a truth/law. The same holds true for ALL of God's promises. They are truths/laws that consistently work, and they cannot ever fail to work or perform as they are written. If any of them do, then they would cease to be a truth/law.
The truth or fact is, most times, it doesn't work for you, but against you, without you ever realizing it.
Everyone uses words of faith, many times in the day, every day. And you are no different. The problem is that you use it against yourself unwittingly, according to your worldly colored, carnally minded glasses. That is, according to HOW you see or perceive things. Yours just happens to be carnal and worldly. If it wasn't, then you would see things according to WHAT IS WRITTEN.
And to correct your understanding of the verse. It is not just whosoever says, as that would take the verse out of context, but whosoever use the faith of God, as it says in verse 22. So without the faith of God in operation, nothing will happen, as James 1 declares. As I said before, WOF will not work without faith, and neither will faith work without WOF.
On the contrary, it ALWAYS WORKS FOR ME.
Is the promise of eternal life to every person in the world? The answer is, no. It only goes to those who act on the word of God, according to Romans 10:9. The same holds true for all of God's promises. They are for, and will work toward those who act on them. If you don't receive them personally and act on them, they are not for you.
As for moving a literal mountain, yes, I moved one, or rather God did.
Does it matter? Regardless of what someone else does or does not do, has no bearing on the word of God. Doesn't matter what I think or what they did. If it is for me, then I'm going to get or do it, regardless of what the apostles did.
You can't stop looking at things through that carnal mind of yours, can you? Was Stephen an apostle? Yet he did GREAT wonders and miracles. Why didn't all the apostles perform great wonders and miracles like Stephen? After all, they're the APOSTLES. So neither do we have to be an apostle to do the same as Stephen.
Still no scripture to back up what you believe?
I see no reason to continue with this thread. I have pushed for scriptural proof, to prove ones belief, with no positive results.
I think I have shown that many in the church are not interested in receiving truth, as they do not use the bible to support their belief. It is a sad thing to see how far the church has fallen away from God. I could not get even one person to produce a single scripture verse to back up their anti-WOF doctrine. And I have found that NONE, who vehemently fight against the WOF doctrine, understand how it works. Not one. Like a little child, void of knowledge and understanding, sees or hears one thing and thinks he knows it all, then proceed in telling his parents that they don't know how to do it right.
Another thing I noticed, aside from the barrage of insults, was the constant deviations from the subject, because they had absolutely zero scripture to prove the truth of God's word, wrong.
Another thing I noticed is that they who were against WOF, couldn't understand what I was saying. I felt like Jesus with the Pharisees.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
This doctrine is not OF me, but it is a truth OF GOD. I didn't write it, God did, and the apostles propagated it. So why would anyone hate this simple truth of God's word. I can only think of one thing.
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
The proof is in their failure, or rather their refusal, to see the truth, and even more, to receive it. He that is OF God, would be able to see the truth of God's word, and open to receive it. And this is just too big and too clear to miss.
I think I have shown that many in the church are not interested in receiving truth, as they do not use the bible to support their belief. It is a sad thing to see how far the church has fallen away from God. I could not get even one person to produce a single scripture verse to back up their anti-WOF doctrine. And I have found that NONE, who vehemently fight against the WOF doctrine, understand how it works. Not one. Like a little child, void of knowledge and understanding, sees or hears one thing and thinks he knows it all, then proceed in telling his parents that they don't know how to do it right.
Another thing I noticed, aside from the barrage of insults, was the constant deviations from the subject, because they had absolutely zero scripture to prove the truth of God's word, wrong.
Another thing I noticed is that they who were against WOF, couldn't understand what I was saying. I felt like Jesus with the Pharisees.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
This doctrine is not OF me, but it is a truth OF GOD. I didn't write it, God did, and the apostles propagated it. So why would anyone hate this simple truth of God's word. I can only think of one thing.
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
The proof is in their failure, or rather their refusal, to see the truth, and even more, to receive it. He that is OF God, would be able to see the truth of God's word, and open to receive it. And this is just too big and too clear to miss.
Last edited:
Oh please know1? Yes, God gave the Apostle Paul the answer which clearly stated that His grace is sufficient for Paul to deal with the problem. God "DID NOT" eliminate the problem by guaranteeing complete healing as in Paul not having the problem anymore. This is what the wof "HERETICAL" teachers promote.
And you read every word of my post and where did I say anything like this? "Are you telling me that those who are withering away from a terminally wasting diseases, are being strengthened and sustained by God, when it kills them? Is the power of God resting on them who die from the sickness or disease? Do they believe and say they are strong by the power of God, while withering away?" Your taking what I said and how God operates out of context.
And why in the world are you bringing up Joel 3:10? What does this have to do with our discussion? Can you please exegete Joel 3 and tell me what it means? Now, since your bringing up the issue of Gods promises please tell me if the following verse is a promise from God? "1 John 3:9, "Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for (or because) his seed remaineth in him; and HE CANNOT SIN, HE IS BORN OF GOD." Are you able to keep this promise know1?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And you read every word of my post and where did I say anything like this? "Are you telling me that those who are withering away from a terminally wasting diseases, are being strengthened and sustained by God, when it kills them? Is the power of God resting on them who die from the sickness or disease? Do they believe and say they are strong by the power of God, while withering away?" Your taking what I said and how God operates out of context.
And why in the world are you bringing up Joel 3:10? What does this have to do with our discussion? Can you please exegete Joel 3 and tell me what it means? Now, since your bringing up the issue of Gods promises please tell me if the following verse is a promise from God? "1 John 3:9, "Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for (or because) his seed remaineth in him; and HE CANNOT SIN, HE IS BORN OF GOD." Are you able to keep this promise know1?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto