Israel’s Final Restoration

[eternally-gratefull]

a future event to Paul. 'Israel' being saved was continually taking place. It still is.

Thank you, and this proves context is future then.. Thus everything must be taken in that context

you have to also consider the group as individual as Paul clearly is. If SOME do not believe they will be cut off.

Those (some) are still a group of people within the context of the group of people paul spoke of. non believing israel, or gentile.

Also. Unless you believe an individual can be saved (grafted in) and then later lose that salvation (be cut off) you must understand, he is not talking about individual salvation here, period.

yes each of them individually one by one.

All these people lost salvation? Say it is not so, how was that possible?

each one making his choice,

again, they lost salvation?

not at all. the original branches left in place are believing Jews,

And the ones cut off were believing jews at one time, But became blinded, and were then cut off, losing their salvation?

LOL look back at your childish remarks.

I respond in kind, I decided to stop doing that. two wrongs do not make a right, I am trying to repent and change,

but as being cut off or grafted in one by one, Not all Gentiles would be cut off due to unbelief

Again you have the major issue, You have believing jews and gentiles being cut off and losing salvation.

That can not be true, so your context can not be appropriate for interpretin gthe passage.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

when God blinds people He does it because they have already blinded themselves first. so your stricture does not hold. They ARE accountable

note how He hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh had already hardened is own heart,

yes, we agree here..

To harden means to strengthen, Hardening ones heart literally means to strengthen whatever belief the person or people have, so it is harder (thus the term harden) for them to change their view.

As one OT passage says, Put the truth in front of then so seeing they may not see and hearing nthey may not hear (harden)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good job,EG I've learned by reading your posts. Thank you.

Thank you, this encourages me. Any time you may have a question or do not understand something I say, please ask.

 

[DP]

when God blinds people He does it because they have already blinded themselves first. so your stricture does not hold. They ARE accountable

note how He hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh had already hardened is own heart,

Romans 11 with what Paul is declaring is different than Pharaoh, because Pharaoh was NOT one of God's chosen election like Paul showed those he was speaking of are. Thus the hardness of your heart against the forgiveness of His elect is showing, and that forgiveness today is supposed to be under Christ Jesus and The New Covenant, not the Old Covenant.

 

[trofimus]

1. All Isreal is not the church, It is Israel. If the Isreal was everyone who is saved, Paul would not have differentiated Israel (natural branches) from Gentiles (unatural branches) being attacked to the vince (Christ) they would have been united as one unit, not divided

Church SHOULD NOT BE DIVIDED, but is composed of natural branches (from Israel) and unnatural branches (from Gentiles). But it WAS DIVIDED in the first centuries, look at James vs Paul groups. Thats the context, thats why Paul writes this chapter, to explain this.
All Israel is the church.

2. It is not a past event, because Jacob (Israel) is still in sin, The redeemer has not "turned them" from their ungodliness (they have not yet repented.)OT states clearly, when Israels redeemer comes, They will repent turn from their sin, and never commit those sins (spiritual adultery) again (see Ez 37 and many other prophesies concerning this event) [/B][/COLOR]

Not true. Redeemer has come and turned His people from ungodliness.
"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." Rom 11:5 and others throughout the chapter.
Prophecies in OT are about the church, real, spiritual people of God.

It does not matter, He spoke of a future occurrence, which would happen when the redeemer came. (context)
Christ is the redeemer, always has been, always will be, It does not matter if he came only once, or comes another hundred times, he will always be called the redeemer.

Not true either. His death on the cross is the one and for ever perfect sacrifice for all. So the first coming, not other comings as redeemer. The second coming will be as JUDGE.

What was the main plan of God? To have several millions of Israel people as His people and the church is just an temporal insertion into this plan? Or to have a bride, perfect church of billions of people of all nations and the Israel was just a way to bring forth the Messiah?
Were his people the physical ones or the spiritual ones from the beginning?

The clearance of these views is the clearance of our view of such verses like these.

Can you stop using colors? It messes up quotations and I must edit it several times before a final posting.

 

[trofimus]

Even paul called it a mystery, and told the gentile church in rome not to be fooled by it, thinking they are wise. So Paul would agree that many of them were in the dark still.[/B][/COLOR]

The church thought that Jews have no place in the salvation, because they have killed Christ etc. Paul says its not true, because He himself is a Jew, there has always been a remnant of believing Jews, God can accept them as natural branches if they will believe etc.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Church SHOULD NOT BE DIVIDED, but is composed of natural branches (from Israel) and unnatural branches (from Gentiles). But it WAS DIVIDED in the first centuries, look at James vs Paul groups. Thats the context, thats why Paul writes this chapter, to explain this.

Then paul is totally contradicting himself in chapter 9 when he says the church is neither jew or gentile. Why would paul do such a thing.

The context is not the church, Thats the point, Your right the church is not divided.

All Israel is the church.

No, It is all Israel at a future date, when the blindness is removed from the part of Israel that is blind, and they turn from their ungodliness (repent)

Not true. Redeemer has come and turned His people from ungodliness.

Oh really. SO Isreal is no longer partly blind..ok. Thanks. Oh, Wait, Isreal is partially blind still. So they are still as a nation ungodly.

"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace."

Rom 11:5 and others throughout the chapter.
Prophecies in OT are about the church, real, spiritual people of God.

Ah, So they are still ungodly, Just like they have been since long before babyon and many of the prophets.

Then I guess All Israel is not saved yet, and the redeemer has not come yet to turn them from their evil ways.

There was a remnant before Christ, There was while he was alive, and paul said there still are. Nothing changed with the nation and the remnant and blindness of Isreal. It remained the same

I guess the redeemer has no yet come to do that particular work yet

Not true either. His death on the cross is the one and for ever perfect sacrifice for all. So the first coming, not other comings as redeemer. The second coming will be as JUDGE.

So jesus is not our redeemer today, he was only our redeemer back then?

My friend, You need to open up some, The things your saying does not make sense, Jesus is the redeemer no matter how many times he comes. he will still be called the redeemer.

What was the main plan of God? To have several millions of Israel people as His people and the church is just an temporal insertion into this plan? Or to have a bride, perfect church of billions of people of all nations and the Israel was just a way to bring forth the Messiah?

Again, Have you read the OT, What was Gods plan with the nation of Isreal.

I did not ask what his plan was with the church. the church can not fulfill the plan God had with the nation of Isreal.

Were his people the physical ones or the spiritual ones from the beginning?

Isreal was his people before they were even born, (before Isreal/jacob was born for that matter) That is what God called them. Read genesis

The clearance of these views is the clearance of our view of such verses like these.

Not sure what your saying here

Can you stop using colors? It messes up quotations and I must edit it several times before a final posting.

I have used this color since I have been here, I use it so I can see my own posts. My eyes are not very good. nor is this computer. if I leave them black unboolded, I miss when people actually respond to me..

I can maybe change to black in my responses to you if that would help, But I still need to bold.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The church thought that Jews have no place in the salvation, because they have killed Christ etc.

What, said who? The church started in Isreal. why would gentile believers think Jews could not be saved?

Paul says its not true, because He himself is a Jew, there has always been a remnant of believing Jews, God can accept them as natural branches if they will believe etc.

Paul said that to let them know God is not done with Isreal yet. A gentile had to think God made a mistake picking Israel (see chapter 9) Paul let them know in these three chaters, not only did God not make a mistake, But he is not yet done..

that is why he told the gentiles not to be to proud.. And warned them they would fall just like Israel did.

 

[trofimus]

What, said who? The church started in Isreal. why would gentile believers think Jews could not be saved?

Its the opening question of the chapter: "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself..."
Paul writes his letters to church frequently as an reaction to some quetions/problems that have arisen in that church.
This chapter is about "Did God reject his people?" topic.

Paul said that to let them know God is not done with Isreal yet. A gentile had to think God made a mistake picking Israel (see chapter 9) Paul let them know in these three chaters, not only did God not make a mistake, But he is not yet done..
that is why he told the gentiles not to be to proud.. And warned them they would fall just like Israel did.

I agree that God is not done with Israel yet. But I dont agree with what you mean by that.
God is not done with Israel yet - "By no means! I am an Israelite myself..." - because he accepts Jews to church, to his perfect and final bride.
And gentiles in that church should not be proud (I agree with that), because if God cut off natural branches, He can cut off unnatural branches with ease. Thats the reason why not to be proud. Not some kind of future Israel plan B.

 

[trofimus]

Then paul is totally contradicting himself in chapter 9 when he says the church is neither jew or gentile. Why would paul do such a thing.

There are many places in chapter 9, where Paul distinguishes Jews and Gentiles, for example:
"...even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

There are Jews, Gentiles, Men, Women in the church. So he can theologically speak about that. But on the other side, we are all equal in Christ, so there is "no Jew, no Gentile, no men or women, but we are all one".
I dont see that as a contradiction.

BTW, there are some key places in chapter 9 about the salvation of Jews, we can look at them too, so we will have more material than one chapter only.

No, It is all Israel at a future date, when the blindness is removed from the part of Israel that is blind, and they turn from their ungodliness (repent)

That would contradict other places in NT about Israel's blindness to the end. And what would be the meaning of this? If Jews can be saved in Christ today and in the Hebrews Holy spirit says to Jews "dont miss the day, when the salvation can be reached" (sorry, I quote just from my memory), it does not make sense, if there will be some another possibility in the future. Jews have chance like any other - now, before the Judge come.

SO Isreal is no longer partly blind..ok. Thanks. Oh, Wait, Isreal is partially blind still. So they are still as a nation ungodly.

Jews as a nation are blind, because only a few of them see the Light. But the real Israel will be all saved, all elected will come to faith in Christ.

I have used this color since I have been here, I use it so I can see my own posts. My eyes are not very good. nor is this computer. if I leave them black unboolded, I miss when people actually respond to me..

Ok then

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are many places in chapter 9, where Paul distinguishes Jews and Gentiles, for example:
"...even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

There are Jews, Gentiles, Men, Women in the church. So he can theologically speak about that. But on the other side, we are all equal in Christ, so there is "no Jew, no Gentile, no men or women, but we are all one".
I dont see that as a contradiction.

BTW, there are some key places in chapter 9 about the salvation of Jews, we can look at them too, so we will have more material than one chapter only.

chapter 9 answers the question, Is a jew saved just because he is a jew, And did God make a mistake chosing Isreal.

chapter 11 answers the question, Even though Isreal as a nation rejected god, is God done with them as a nation.

We need to stick with context. Chapter 9 is regarding salvation. Chapter 11 is not.. (again, unless you think one can lose salvation, you can not have a salvic context in chapter 11)

That would contradict other places in NT about Israel's blindness to the end. And what would be the meaning of this?

Name one.

If Jews can be saved in Christ today and in the Hebrews Holy spirit says to Jews "dont miss the day, when the salvation can be reached" (sorry, I quote just from my memory), it does not make sense, if there will be some another possibility in the future. Jews have chance like any other - now, before the Judge come.

This makes no sense, Since I have never said a jew can not be saved, or that they will be saved a different way in the future. So I am going to say I do not understand what you mean.

Jews as a nation are blind, because only a few of them see the Light. But the real Israel will be all saved, all elected will come to faith in Christ.

Jews as a nation are blind, but there is a remnant, So the nation will never fade away from history,

There is a remnant, because God is not done, and one day, the whole nation will turn from their sin, repent, and receive God.

Again, If God is done with Israel. then there is no need to even mention a remnant.. The remnant is there so the nation will never fade away, BECAUSE God is not done.. He still has a plan here on earth for them..

Ok then

Thank you brother.. And thanks for the civilized conversation.. Most people can not do that on this topic.. We are still brothers in Christ,, I am sure of that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its the opening question of the chapter: "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself..."
Paul writes his letters to church frequently as an reaction to some quetions/problems that have arisen in that church.
This chapter is about "Did God reject his people?" topic.

It still fits.. Is God done with his people.. Or did he reject them (is the promises God made to them no longer valid)

Paul answers this question later in the chapter.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Gods promise to the fathers still stands, God has not rejected Israel.. He is not done with them, Thats WHY their is a remnant, Again, if God is done, and those promises no longer stand, but have been revoked, or given to the church instead, there is no need to have a remnant.

I agree that God is not done with Israel yet. But I dont agree with what you mean by that.
God is not done with Israel yet - "By no means! I am an Israelite myself..." - because he accepts Jews to church, to his perfect and final bride.

Again, this makes no sense, He accepted Gentiles into his family in the OT when Israel held the flame.

And gentiles in that church should not be proud (I agree with that), because if God cut off natural branches, He can cut off unnatural branches with ease. Thats the reason why not to be proud. Not some kind of future Israel plan B.

Again I ask, does this mean a person can lose salvation? thats is the only possible meaning for you using that in that context.

If you do not believe anyone can lose salvation, then you can not use this context for the passage you must use another context.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

By the way brother, I used to believe (I was taught) that in the OT Isreal and gentiles were saved by the law. During the tribulation period. They would revert to the law. This means salvation could be lost. which perfectly fit the "cutting" of of romans 11.. as loss of salvation. to a jew or gentile

It is realising this can not be the case, but everyone everywhere has been saved by grace alone that I changed my views on romans 9 - 11. Because they do not fit a gospel which is eternally secure.. Just wanted to show you where I am coming from, and what made me change my view

 

[trofimus]

chapter 9 answers the question, Is a jew saved just because he is a jew, And did God make a mistake chosing Isreal.

chapter 11 answers the question, Even though Isreal as a nation rejected god, is God done with them as a nation.

We need to stick with context. Chapter 9 is regarding salvation. Chapter 11 is not.. (again, unless you think one can lose salvation, you can not have a salvic context in chapter 11)

If chapter 11 is not about salvation, what is it about, then? "In this way all Israel will be saved."
I think that Romans 9:1-8 is about the same or very similar topic as most parts of Romans 11 - not all Israel is Israel, but all Israel will be saved
It can mean only one thing - There are two Israels Paul is actually talking about.

Name one.

Well, I was not precise. I meant - it would contradicts places where it is said the state which is now will be to the end of the world.
But it has the same implications, because the state of things is, that Israel is blind from the most part.

For example:
"For they [Jews] forbid us to speak with the Gentiles, that they may live to fulfill their sins always, but fury has come upon them until the end." 1 Thess 2:16
=> The anger of God is upon the nation of Israel until the end

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14
=> times of Gentiles are the final times. When the times of [Gentile] nations will be fullfiled, the end will come. Not salvation for the nation of Israel.There will be no other time for Israel or some kind of "age of Israel" after that.

This makes no sense, Since I have never said a jew can not be saved, or that they will be saved a different way in the future. So I am going to say I do not understand what you mean.

So what do you mean by "Redeemer will come and take away ungodliness from Jacob", if you think its some kind of a future event?
How will he come and how will he take away ungodliness?
If you think its just what they have now (i.e. by becoming Christians), what is the meaning of that prophecy? Just to say that most of them will become Christians just before the end times?

Again, If God is done with Israel. then there is no need to even mention a remnant.. The remnant is there so the nation will never fade away, BECAUSE God is not done.. He still has a plan here on earth for them..

I dont understand. If God is done with Israel regarding some special national plan, why is there no need to mention that He has elected a remnant from Israel as He always did throughout the history of Israel to be saved?

Thank you brother.. And thanks for the civilized conversation.. Most people can not do that on this topic.. We are still brothers in Christ,, I am sure of that.

Thank you too. When we will meet in heaven, with a much better knowledge, we will maybe laugh at this conversation we are having now

 

[trofimus]

Gods promise to the fathers still stands, God has not rejected Israel.. He is not done with them, Thats WHY their is a remnant, Again, if God is done, and those promises no longer stand, but have been revoked, or given to the church instead, there is no need to have a remnant.

I agree with this statement completely.
God's promise is not about some future event, but is fulfilled in the remnant from the Israel This remnant are the Jews on whom God fulfilled His promises to Israel. And because there is such a remnant (including Paul himself), the promises and election of God has not failed.
I actually think this is an argument for my view If all Israel will be saved in future, there is no need to speak about remnant.

Again, this makes no sense, He accepted Gentiles into his family in the OT when Israel held the flame.

Yes, He accepted Gentiles into his OT church, now he accepts them into NT church... not sure what does not make sense.

Again I ask, does this mean a person can lose salvation? thats is the only possible meaning for you using that in that context.
If you do not believe anyone can lose salvation, then you can not use this context for the passage you must use another context.

Well, Paul is sometimes speaking in quite a difficult way. I dont believe you can loose salvation.
Because Israel was the people of God, under the covenant, Jew naturally grow from that people of God. But if he does not believe in Christ, he is cut off.
On the other hand, Gentiles were grown up without the covenant with God, so they must be implanted into God's people.
Now, when Christian from Gentiles says "I am better than unbelieving Jews", he should realize he stands by faith alone and without that faith he would be cut off too. (I am not saying it will ever happen, its just a picture and there are always some difficulties with pictures)

 

[royalscot]

"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah"--No Gentiles here.

he already did. tell you about it. here.

6 he says:
"It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob(after death was conquered, there can be a resurection,)
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth

and would have thought, proof of something, was what you were trying to find.

 

[trofimus]

By the way brother, I used to believe (I was taught) that in the OT Isreal and gentiles were saved by the law. During the tribulation period. They would revert to the law. This means salvation could be lost. which perfectly fit the "cutting" of of romans 11.. as loss of salvation. to a jew or gentile

It is realising this can not be the case, but everyone everywhere has been saved by grace alone that I changed my views on romans 9 - 11. Because they do not fit a gospel which is eternally secure.. Just wanted to show you where I am coming from, and what made me change my view

I was grown up in a pentecostal dispensational church so I was taught for many years again and again and again that there is some future plan for Israel and I was still hearing what Israel did, does, will do... like it was the main thing for a Christian to follow.

Later I have become a reformed Christian which simplified my theology in a huge way.

And thats why I am strongly against such "Israel-centered" theology and "watch Israel, watch every move he does and how it fills some prophecy!" concepts (I dont say you are doing this).

This is my background

 

[royalscot]

salvation or saviour came through jesus.

however, how many dead non christian jew rejected the new covenant.

how could they read all the facts, that are in the bible, if it never went to print, about 1500 ad.

given some of the bible proof you seem to be quoting.( there is no way they could have read this. etc )etc

yet, paul was not on earth at 70 ad.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If chapter 11 is not about salvation, what is it about, then? "In this way all Israel will be saved."
I think that Romans 9:1-8 is about the same or very similar topic as most parts of Romans 11 - not all Israel is Israel, but all Israel will be saved

Its about God keeping his promises to a nation. And not being done with them as many people think. A nation, who as paul said, is my enemy concerning the gospel. But beloved because of the fathers (and God promises to them.)

If it is about salvation. then salvation can be lost and we can be cut off (lose salvation) I do not want to even think of that, That means gods word contradicts. and eternal life is not eternal.

It can mean only one thing - There are two Israels Paul is actually talking about.

no, only one,, the church is not Israel, it is the church.

Well, I was not precise. I meant - it would contradicts places where it is said the state which is now will be to the end of the world.

That state it is in at the end of the world is at peace with Jesus ruling the world with a rod of Iron, Where the lion and the lamb sleep in the field. Where there is peace on earth... So I am not sure what you mean.

But it has the same implications, because the state of things is, that Israel is blind from the most part.

At the end, Israel will not be blind, it will be in peace. Gods original plan for them will have been fulfilled. As God said numerous times.

So the world will know I am the God of Israel.....

For example:
"For they [Jews] forbid us to speak with the Gentiles, that they may live to fulfill their sins always, but fury has come upon them until the end." 1 Thess 2:16
=> The anger of God is upon the nation of Israel until the end

The end of the age, yes, Not the end of the world. And yes, That is what Paul said, They are our enemy concerning the gospel

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Matthew 24:14
=> times of Gentiles are the final times. When the times of [Gentile] nations will be fullfiled, the end will come.

yes. Daniels prophesies concerning gentiles complete, not the end of the world.. The prophesies stated Jesus will return and set up his own kingdom them.. Isreal repents at the end of this age..

Not salvation for the nation of Israel.There will be no other time for Israel or some kind of "age of Israel" after that.

It will be the age of Christ, his rule, Nations will worship him.. Not like today.. Israel is just a part of that. All nations will rejoice and live in peace.. Again, OT prophets speak of this.

So what do you mean by "Redeemer will come and take away ungodliness from Jacob", if you think its some kind of a future event?

Jacob is in sin, When Christ returns, they will repent, I have mentioned Ez 37 numerous times,, why have you not discussed it. It states it clearly in there.

How will he come and how will he take away ungodliness?

Zechariah 14:4
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

It will not be a prety sight when he comes,, As the rest of the chapter makes clear.

After this peace, Not only In Israel, but on earth..

And israel will repent, again, see Ez 37

If you think its just what they have now (i.e. by becoming Christians), what is the meaning of that prophecy? Just to say that most of them will become Christians just before the end times?

No, To say the nation will repent, and God will fulfill he promise and prophecy concerning them will be fulfilled.

It is not about Israel. It is about God and him keeping his promises to all nations..

I dont understand. If God is done with Israel regarding some special national plan, why is there no need to mention that He has elected a remnant from Israel as He always did throughout the history of Israel to be saved?

Because of the reason he only mentioned a remnant concerning them. Why did he not leave a remnant from any of the other nations which no longer exist, why only Isreal There is a reason.

Thank you too. When we will meet in heaven, with a much better knowledge, we will maybe laugh at this conversation we are having now

Oh we will, I have no doubt of that!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I was grown up in a pentecostal dispensational church so I was taught for many years again and again and again that there is some future plan for Israel and I was still hearing what Israel did, does, will do... like it was the main thing for a Christian to follow.

Later I have become a reformed Christian which simplified my theology in a huge way.

And thats why I am strongly against such "Israel-centered" theology and "watch Israel, watch every move he does and how it fills some prophecy!" concepts (I dont say you are doing this).

This is my background

Nice

Just to let you know. I do not have an Israel centered view.

I have a view God keeps his promises, Thats all.. (there are some odd views out there concerning Isreal, I will agree)

Thanks for your testimony