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E
According to scripture WE CAN NOT DO THESE THINGS. For there is NON RIGHTEOUS, NON WHO SEEK AFTER GOD. How can we forsake something, when scripture says we do not have the power to do it? If we could do it, Why did Christ have to die?
Do you know what sin is? it is PRIDE! If I am getting baptized to be saved, I am doing it in pride. And it is sin. If I am getting baptized BECAUSE I am saved, I am doing it out of love for my NEW father, because he asked me to. This would go for ANY ACT of obedience to any law. It is pride which causes sin, not the other way around.
Actually yes it does. Isreal is proof of this. God gave them the law. And what did Paul say? it caused sin to increase, not decrease. If we could be righteous by the law. it could save us. But as paul yet said again, the law is a tutor to bring us to Christ.
You want to know how to obey the law? Jesus told us how. Love the Lord our God with all our might, and our neighbor as our self (others focused) this is how God made us, We rebelled by choosing to be our own God, thus whatever we do which would satisfy self, or be to promote self (whether they be morally good or morally bad things) are sin.
We can not love that we do not know period. And we can not KNOW god until he raises us to new life and gives us his spirit, opens our eyes, and allows us to understand who he is.
Do you know what sin is? it is PRIDE! If I am getting baptized to be saved, I am doing it in pride. And it is sin. If I am getting baptized BECAUSE I am saved, I am doing it out of love for my NEW father, because he asked me to. This would go for ANY ACT of obedience to any law. It is pride which causes sin, not the other way around.
Actually yes it does. Isreal is proof of this. God gave them the law. And what did Paul say? it caused sin to increase, not decrease. If we could be righteous by the law. it could save us. But as paul yet said again, the law is a tutor to bring us to Christ.
You want to know how to obey the law? Jesus told us how. Love the Lord our God with all our might, and our neighbor as our self (others focused) this is how God made us, We rebelled by choosing to be our own God, thus whatever we do which would satisfy self, or be to promote self (whether they be morally good or morally bad things) are sin.
We can not love that we do not know period. And we can not KNOW god until he raises us to new life and gives us his spirit, opens our eyes, and allows us to understand who he is.
E
lol. you are hard to talk to because you are so blinded by your belief.
some of the natural branches wer cut off why? because they did not believe, they never believed. Just like some who claim to be part of the church will be cut off because they never trusted in christ, but because they trusted in sin more, or trusted in self works more just like many of the jews who were cut off..They did not get cut off because they were born again in trust in Christ, and walked away or sinned their way out. only you would think something like this!
he is talking to THE CHURCHES in rome. Not to induviduals. and telling them, if they turn away, they to will be cut off. In fact paul also said IT WILL HAPPEN.
Paul was telling us not to be puffed up in pride, and ignore the mystery. that was his context.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:
his context is isreal vs gentile. not induvidual people. He is telling the church not to do what it is doing today and has been doing for hundreds of years. writting of Isreal as nothing, and thinking they have now obtained the promises. because one day, when the time of the gentile has been fulfilled. the nation of Isreal, which is BLIND IN PART NOW, will have their eyes opened, and all of them will get saved, and the oracles of God will be returned to them again. That just as god removed them as Gods representatives and gave it to the gentiles, He will one day remove it from the gentiles because of their unbelief, and give it back to Isreal.
I am not calvanist. And how did I contradict myself?? can you show me??
lol. See above, He is talking about Isreal vs Gentiles.
You have major problems with your thinking, based on the fact you can not see the sin in your own life. because you think you have arrived to be righteous on your own.
1. Jesus said he NEVER KNEW THEM. Which proves that they were not at one time saved, then lost that salvation because of sin. If they had at one time been saved, God could never say he never knew them, because he would be lieing, Is god a liar?
2. They claimed to do many works in Christ's name. Notice this, Unlike those in James, who were hearers and not doers (licentious) these people were doers. which could have proven they had true faith. but we see it did not, because they were not doing it in faith, because if God never knew them, They never knew God. so they could not possibly have done these works out of love for God, but out of selfish gain. Trying to earn salvation. Many pharisees will come to God with this excuse.
3. He told them they did wickedness, because although they thought they were righteous in their ways, they were still wicked. Because the good they thought they did, they did in sin, out of pride. And they continues in whatever sin they refused to acknowledge was sin, thus they could not see how wicked they were.
Face it Skinski. If you do not repent and come to Christ, This will be God talking to you!
M
I totally agree, people do not understand the difference between works of the law, AND GOD WORKING IN US TO PERFORM " GOOD WORKS." God gives each of us certain measures of faith and those that cant see the difference between works of the law and Gods work in us will never experience the joy of his rest. Let each man walk according to the grace that was given to him. Labour to enter into his rest, Now that is a good work and another apparently contradicting statement.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
This paper was actually written by a dear friend of mine, a gifted teacher who is now deceased. You could defiantely add many more expamples between the works of the law and Gods work in us. I would imagin you could fill a volume larger than this one.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
All of these arguments about our own works and "Gods faith in us to perform works of the law " all stem from unbelief and a lack of faith and knowledge. Anything that is not of faith is sin. We must labour to enter into this rest unless we fall short of THIS SAME EXAMPLE OF UNBELIEF. Its not a wage we are earning its a promise we are inherriting.
God Bless,
Matt
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
This paper was actually written by a dear friend of mine, a gifted teacher who is now deceased. You could defiantely add many more expamples between the works of the law and Gods work in us. I would imagin you could fill a volume larger than this one.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
All of these arguments about our own works and "Gods faith in us to perform works of the law " all stem from unbelief and a lack of faith and knowledge. Anything that is not of faith is sin. We must labour to enter into this rest unless we fall short of THIS SAME EXAMPLE OF UNBELIEF. Its not a wage we are earning its a promise we are inherriting.
God Bless,
Matt
Hebrews 11:
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. ... 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara
20 By faith Isaac blessed ...
21 By faith Jacob, ...
22 By faith Joseph, ...
23 By faith Moses, ...
31 By faith the harlot Rahab... (compare to the letter of James)
32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. ... 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara
20 By faith Isaac blessed ...
21 By faith Jacob, ...
22 By faith Joseph, ...
23 By faith Moses, ...
31 By faith the harlot Rahab... (compare to the letter of James)
32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
E
If we are trying to add works to grace in order to be saved, we cancel out grace. and make salvation not a gift, but a reward.
God says come to him, and he will give you eternal life. THEN give you the capacity to work. he does not say clean up your act and your life, then come to me. if he did non of us could make it, because none of us can be good enough.
I agree with the above statement. The works of righteousness that the Pharisees were exhibiting were filthy rags and in fact disobedience because they did not have a genuine conversion to begin with. They appeared impeccable but were filthy in reality.
James did not contradict Paul when he said that man is justified by works and not by faith alone, rather both Paul and James' message, Spirit-inspired messages, are in harmony.
First, a sinner is saved by faith alone as Paul stated because any work of righteousness a sinner (i.e. Pharisees) does to be saved or appear right in God's sight is as filthy rags. God does not favor that kind of righteousness because it is self-righteousness, maintaining righteousness apart from Christ.
Matt 5:20 For I say unto you,That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
What kind of righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees? Righteousness that comes out of a regenerated heart, one that has humility and purity in it, and one where the person obeys God out of love and gratitude.
Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. That kind of righteousness is attached to pride, religiosity, hypocrisy, and it removes God out of the picture and puts self in the picture. Unlike the Pharisee, the publican came with a contrite heart and acknowledged his state as a sinner that is he was justified by God. Jesus Christ died and rose again for our justification and righteousness so before an individual's good works can be pleasing to God, they must first be born again.
Secondly, James focused on the individual who has been justified by faith in the blood of Christ. They are to show their faith through obedience to God. God is always searching out hearts to see if we are right in His sight (Jer 17:10). Salvation is not the license for immorality, Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity (2 Tim 2:19). The believer's priority should be to follow after holiness. If there is no obedience then faith is nothing but a mere belief even as the devils.
Therefore I believe that James completes Paul's message by saying that a saved individual is to bear fruit. One can’t be saved by works because no human being can save themselves, that's why Jesus became the sinless Lamb to save mankind, however after you have been saved by faith you are to live in active obedience, practical fruits of righteousness (Phil 1:11) which is the manifestation of grace in the regenerated heart.
James did not contradict Paul when he said that man is justified by works and not by faith alone, rather both Paul and James' message, Spirit-inspired messages, are in harmony.
First, a sinner is saved by faith alone as Paul stated because any work of righteousness a sinner (i.e. Pharisees) does to be saved or appear right in God's sight is as filthy rags. God does not favor that kind of righteousness because it is self-righteousness, maintaining righteousness apart from Christ.
Matt 5:20 For I say unto you,That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
What kind of righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees? Righteousness that comes out of a regenerated heart, one that has humility and purity in it, and one where the person obeys God out of love and gratitude.
Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. That kind of righteousness is attached to pride, religiosity, hypocrisy, and it removes God out of the picture and puts self in the picture. Unlike the Pharisee, the publican came with a contrite heart and acknowledged his state as a sinner that is he was justified by God. Jesus Christ died and rose again for our justification and righteousness so before an individual's good works can be pleasing to God, they must first be born again.
Secondly, James focused on the individual who has been justified by faith in the blood of Christ. They are to show their faith through obedience to God. God is always searching out hearts to see if we are right in His sight (Jer 17:10). Salvation is not the license for immorality, Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity (2 Tim 2:19). The believer's priority should be to follow after holiness. If there is no obedience then faith is nothing but a mere belief even as the devils.
Therefore I believe that James completes Paul's message by saying that a saved individual is to bear fruit. One can’t be saved by works because no human being can save themselves, that's why Jesus became the sinless Lamb to save mankind, however after you have been saved by faith you are to live in active obedience, practical fruits of righteousness (Phil 1:11) which is the manifestation of grace in the regenerated heart.
My comments....How about forsaking rebellion and obediently yielding to God before being born again? Do you consider that such a thing is possible? Or do you believe that one must get saved before one can obey?
Your reply.
Ok here you reference a section from Romans 3.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Then you add "how can we forsake something that we do not have the power to do it?"
Where exactly does the Bible teach that?
The Prodigal Son forsook the pig pen. The Ninevites forsook their rebellion. They certainly had the power. How do you explain what they did?
You are teaching that sin is not a choice but rather an involuntary activity. If sin is rooted in the choice then one can choose not to do it. Is a man forced to commit adultery on his wife? If a man is committing adultery on his wife does he have the power to forsake that adultery? Of course he does.
Yet you deny this basic principle and speak against those who teach one must forsake known sin before forgiveness is granted.
Rom 3:9-12 is in the context of teaching that both the Jewish and Gentile nations have all been concluded under sin. Paul is quoting from Psalm 14, Isa 53:6 and Jer 50:6. If you read those passages you will clearly see the context there is in regards to those who have rejected God.
If there never has been or never will be anyone righteous except Jesus Christ then why does the Bible teach the opposite? Job, Danial and Abel are all called righteous in the Bible. Explain that inconsistency?
How about John the Baptist parents?
Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Did they lack ability? These verses clearly contradict what you are espousing. Can you explain them?
Sin is rebellion to God. It is doing wrong when you know to do right (Jam 4:17), it is transgression (1Joh 3:4).
Was Nineveh prideful for forsaking their sin and seeking the mercy of God? You are clearly implying that they were.
Was the Prodigal Son prideful in forsaking the pig pen and returning to the Father and confessing his sin? You must conclude that he was if you are to be consistent with what you are saying.
Does a husband who forsakes his adulterous relationship with another women that he may possibly be reconciled with his wife do it because he is proud?
Why do you think it is pride to forsake sin and to turn to God BEFORE one is raised up to newness of life? You speak in clear opposition to the plain words of Scripture.
Yes the law paints an outward picture of righteousness that leads us to Jesus Christ. Outward adherence to law does not make one righteous and I have never claimed that it does. I clearly state that true righteousness is through walking in the Spirit of life of Jesus Christ whereby we walk by a faith which works by love. Love fulfills the law.
If one truly loves then they do not need outward rules telling them how to behave because by nature they will do right. That is true righteousness. Yet you keep twisting what I say and present it as if I am teaching that the law saves you because I teach that a sinner must forsake their rebellion to God through a broken repentance BEFORE forgiveness is granted.
How about you address why you never make mention of "faith works by love and love fulfills the law" and accuse me of teaching that we are made righteous by the law? You cannot quote me teaching what you accuse me of, you just pretend that I teach that.
How can one CHOOSE to REBEL if they don't have the power to do otherwise? You claim that one cannot forsake rebellion or choose to do what is right unless one gets saved first. Thus you have just contradicted yourself again.
Man either has the ability to choose or he does not. Man either sins by necessity or he does not. You cannot have it both ways and speak out of both sides of you mouth.
The Bible clearly teaches that men have the ability to choose evil or choose good. Men can go either way. God is calling men to choose to do good and yield to the light of the world which is Jesus Christ. Yielding to good is not of ourselves because God is the source of light. Thus we can do nothing except we abide in Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth and the life.
Please explain the contradiction I outlined above.
Absolutely we cannot love unconditionally until God raises us up to newness of life. I have never taught otherwise. Yet this in no way negates the ability of man to forsake outright rebellion to God. The Ninevites may not have unconditionally loved their neighbour but they forsook their rebellion.
God is calling all sinners to a broken repentance whereby they forsake rebelling and turn to Him in obedience. God will then teach them and empower them to walk in love and truth.
What you do is you connect the "forsaking of sin" with the actual result of "being born again" and thus teach that the former is impossible without the latter. Thus you reverse the Gospel and have the forsaking of rebellion occurring after forgiveness is granted. The Bible clearly teaches the opposite of what you believe.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Your reply.
Ok here you reference a section from Romans 3.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Then you add "how can we forsake something that we do not have the power to do it?"
Where exactly does the Bible teach that?
The Prodigal Son forsook the pig pen. The Ninevites forsook their rebellion. They certainly had the power. How do you explain what they did?
You are teaching that sin is not a choice but rather an involuntary activity. If sin is rooted in the choice then one can choose not to do it. Is a man forced to commit adultery on his wife? If a man is committing adultery on his wife does he have the power to forsake that adultery? Of course he does.
Yet you deny this basic principle and speak against those who teach one must forsake known sin before forgiveness is granted.
Rom 3:9-12 is in the context of teaching that both the Jewish and Gentile nations have all been concluded under sin. Paul is quoting from Psalm 14, Isa 53:6 and Jer 50:6. If you read those passages you will clearly see the context there is in regards to those who have rejected God.
If there never has been or never will be anyone righteous except Jesus Christ then why does the Bible teach the opposite? Job, Danial and Abel are all called righteous in the Bible. Explain that inconsistency?
How about John the Baptist parents?
Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Did they lack ability? These verses clearly contradict what you are espousing. Can you explain them?
Sin is rebellion to God. It is doing wrong when you know to do right (Jam 4:17), it is transgression (1Joh 3:4).
Was Nineveh prideful for forsaking their sin and seeking the mercy of God? You are clearly implying that they were.
Was the Prodigal Son prideful in forsaking the pig pen and returning to the Father and confessing his sin? You must conclude that he was if you are to be consistent with what you are saying.
Does a husband who forsakes his adulterous relationship with another women that he may possibly be reconciled with his wife do it because he is proud?
Why do you think it is pride to forsake sin and to turn to God BEFORE one is raised up to newness of life? You speak in clear opposition to the plain words of Scripture.
Yes the law paints an outward picture of righteousness that leads us to Jesus Christ. Outward adherence to law does not make one righteous and I have never claimed that it does. I clearly state that true righteousness is through walking in the Spirit of life of Jesus Christ whereby we walk by a faith which works by love. Love fulfills the law.
If one truly loves then they do not need outward rules telling them how to behave because by nature they will do right. That is true righteousness. Yet you keep twisting what I say and present it as if I am teaching that the law saves you because I teach that a sinner must forsake their rebellion to God through a broken repentance BEFORE forgiveness is granted.
How about you address why you never make mention of "faith works by love and love fulfills the law" and accuse me of teaching that we are made righteous by the law? You cannot quote me teaching what you accuse me of, you just pretend that I teach that.
How can one CHOOSE to REBEL if they don't have the power to do otherwise? You claim that one cannot forsake rebellion or choose to do what is right unless one gets saved first. Thus you have just contradicted yourself again.
Man either has the ability to choose or he does not. Man either sins by necessity or he does not. You cannot have it both ways and speak out of both sides of you mouth.
The Bible clearly teaches that men have the ability to choose evil or choose good. Men can go either way. God is calling men to choose to do good and yield to the light of the world which is Jesus Christ. Yielding to good is not of ourselves because God is the source of light. Thus we can do nothing except we abide in Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth and the life.
Please explain the contradiction I outlined above.
Absolutely we cannot love unconditionally until God raises us up to newness of life. I have never taught otherwise. Yet this in no way negates the ability of man to forsake outright rebellion to God. The Ninevites may not have unconditionally loved their neighbour but they forsook their rebellion.
God is calling all sinners to a broken repentance whereby they forsake rebelling and turn to Him in obedience. God will then teach them and empower them to walk in love and truth.
What you do is you connect the "forsaking of sin" with the actual result of "being born again" and thus teach that the former is impossible without the latter. Thus you reverse the Gospel and have the forsaking of rebellion occurring after forgiveness is granted. The Bible clearly teaches the opposite of what you believe.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
It is important to be very specific in defining faith. "Faith Alone" is a protestant term that implies that men are saved via a "passive trust" in what Jesus did on the cross. Yet the Bible does not teach any such thing.
Hebrews 11 is a very important chapter in regards to faith for it clearly illustrates that faith = doing.
Faith is a total conviction in the mind that something is true and is thus becomes the dynamic mover behind action.
It is through the action of yielding to God that salvation is wrought in the soul. There is nothing passive about it. The grace of God BRINGS salvation by teaching men to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly and uprightly in the present age (Tit 2:11-12). That is what the Bible teaches. This grace BRINGS the salvation and this grace TEACHES.
This grace is EFFECTUAL when we WORK TOGETHER with God (2Cor 6:1). Thus if we refuse to work together with God the grace is received in vain or to no effect. Hence DOING is key. Faith is the DOING aspect of our salvation.
It is the implanted word that saves the soul. It has to be RECEIVED (Jam 1:21) in order that the soul be saved. All filthiness and overflowing of wickedness has to be LAID ASIDE first in order for the implanted word to be received. This is because the works of wickedness is the rejection of the word. One cannot reject Jesus and receive Him at the same time. This is why REPENTANCE is crucial for it prepares the heart for salvation.
"Faith Alone" completely removes this dynamic from salvation. If the dynamic of "working together with God" is absent then there will be no salvation. Salvation is not some abstract pie in the sky book keeping entry. Salvation is a literal present state of walking in the Spirit of God by faith overcoming the works of the devil. Salvation is pure holy living where we walk in accordance with the Creator. We are in fellowship with God.
What the Reformers have done is displace the ritualistic errors and sacraments of the Catholic Church with the error of forensic salvation. They forsook one false set of teachings and replaced them with another.
It is a masterful work of Satan who has been able to convince untold millions of people that they are saved whilst they are still in rebellion. He has been able to totally disconnect the deeds done in the body from the state of the soul.
This was the error John was speaking against in his first Epistle. If you read the Epistle in its entirety you will see that John was teaching that deeds matter. He taught that what we do is a manifestation of who we are. Jesus taught the exact same thing but spoke of bearing fruit.
The doctrinal error of Original Sin lies at the root of all this heresy. By redefining the nature of man and by putting sin as a substance of the flesh as the root of actual rebellion it completely undermines the ability of man to forsake rebellion in repentance. Thus on this basis salvation is necessitated to be forensic in application because actual deeds are not a result of choice but rather of nature.
This is why the Gospel is presented in such a way that men are saved whilst they are still in rebellion. Thus Justification (forensic salvation) is separated from Sanctification (actual salvation). Sanctification under this lie is related to Manifest Righteousness whilst Justification is related to the Forensic Righteousness. This is why they misapply Romans 7 to teach that a Christian is still in bondage to sin.
It is a very powerful deception rooted in multiple layers of error. People today totally underestimate the deceptive nature of Satan.
The reason that the church system is so full of sin today is because they are not preaching the true Gospel. They are preaching this forensic salvation message based upon the doctrine of being born a sinner.
Starfield I urge you to dig into these things. I know you reject what I say about Original Sin being error but I urge you to dig into the early church writings as well as the conflict between Pelagius and Augustine. Augustine would have to be the greatest heretic of all time in introducing Gnostic Philosophy into Christian orthodoxy.
One cannot be "born a sinner" and have a"free independent will" at the same time.
AS ETERNALLY GRATEFUL has raised the subject of BORN AGAIN Let us use Scripture and see what is Born Again.... This must be the most misunderstanding concept in the Bible. I will use ONE VERSE to show you just how powerful BORN AGAIN is.
Let us read 1 John 3:9... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Born again, means a person is BORN OF GOD! That means God is your Father that gave you life, existance, and HIS SEED! Not one single person that is born again is born to be the OLD person he was. You are not born again to be you AGAIN! If God gives you life, HE gives you HIS LIFE... Jesus Christ!
Let us break up 1 John 3:9...
1. God says ANY PERSON that is born of GOD, doth not commit sin. I wonder how many here want to change this simple straight foreward statement God makes here. ANY REBORN DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN.... Just accept it, or you will always be in a twirl of confusion!
2. The reason why this person cannot sin God gives as...FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH IN HIM.... This seed is the SAME SEED Jesus was born of... The Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit of God has to commit sin before this person can sin. The Holy Spirit is the ONLY SEED in this person. And this Holy Spirit CANNOT SIN...
3. HE CANNOT SIN, BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD..... LOOK!!!! He did not grow in God and sin less and less, the moment HE WAS BORN OF GOD, he became SINLESS and PERFECT. How many people teach we should GROW in God? Plenty! But God says clearly here that the BORN OF GOD, cannot sin. He did not say those that matured in ME cannot sin, He says those BORN of me CANNOT sin.
Well that makes it very easy to understand.... REBIRTH happens at THE END OF SANCTIFICATION.
I have one huge request from all that reads this.... If a person reads John 17, and 1 John 3, with an open heart, then we can clearly see what God does to make a person BORN OF GOD. To read these two chapters, gives a person the best vision and revelation on BORN AGAIN.
Shortly put BEN IS BORN AGAIN OF GOD THEN.... JESUS IS BORN AGAIN IN BEN=BEN IS BAPTIZED IN/OF HOLY SPIRIT=BEN IS FILLED WITH HOLY SPIRT=BEN IS BORN OF GOD=JESUS IS PLANTED INSIDE BEN=ONLY JESUS LIVES IN BEN=FATHER AND SON MADE ABODE IN BEN=GOD IS IN BEN=BEN IS IN GOD=NO SATAN CLOSE AND VERY SCARED OF BEN/JESUS IN BEN=NO SIN IN GOD NO SIN IN BEN = BEN IS MADE BY GOD IN PERFECTION. BEN = JESUS CHRIST IN IMAGE, HOLINESS AND SONSHIP OF GOD. BEN IS AS MUCH A SON OF GOD AS JESUS IS! THIS IS WHAT BORN OF GOD/REBIRTH IS. NOTHING LESS!
So many people confuse the calling with rebirth. Calling of God is the first step God performs to save you. Rebirth is the last. There is NO HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU BEFORE GOD GIVES YOU REBIRTH AT THE END OF SANCTIFICATION!
Let us read 1 John 3:9... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Born again, means a person is BORN OF GOD! That means God is your Father that gave you life, existance, and HIS SEED! Not one single person that is born again is born to be the OLD person he was. You are not born again to be you AGAIN! If God gives you life, HE gives you HIS LIFE... Jesus Christ!
Let us break up 1 John 3:9...
1. God says ANY PERSON that is born of GOD, doth not commit sin. I wonder how many here want to change this simple straight foreward statement God makes here. ANY REBORN DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN.... Just accept it, or you will always be in a twirl of confusion!
2. The reason why this person cannot sin God gives as...FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH IN HIM.... This seed is the SAME SEED Jesus was born of... The Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit of God has to commit sin before this person can sin. The Holy Spirit is the ONLY SEED in this person. And this Holy Spirit CANNOT SIN...
3. HE CANNOT SIN, BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD..... LOOK!!!! He did not grow in God and sin less and less, the moment HE WAS BORN OF GOD, he became SINLESS and PERFECT. How many people teach we should GROW in God? Plenty! But God says clearly here that the BORN OF GOD, cannot sin. He did not say those that matured in ME cannot sin, He says those BORN of me CANNOT sin.
Well that makes it very easy to understand.... REBIRTH happens at THE END OF SANCTIFICATION.
I have one huge request from all that reads this.... If a person reads John 17, and 1 John 3, with an open heart, then we can clearly see what God does to make a person BORN OF GOD. To read these two chapters, gives a person the best vision and revelation on BORN AGAIN.
Shortly put BEN IS BORN AGAIN OF GOD THEN.... JESUS IS BORN AGAIN IN BEN=BEN IS BAPTIZED IN/OF HOLY SPIRIT=BEN IS FILLED WITH HOLY SPIRT=BEN IS BORN OF GOD=JESUS IS PLANTED INSIDE BEN=ONLY JESUS LIVES IN BEN=FATHER AND SON MADE ABODE IN BEN=GOD IS IN BEN=BEN IS IN GOD=NO SATAN CLOSE AND VERY SCARED OF BEN/JESUS IN BEN=NO SIN IN GOD NO SIN IN BEN = BEN IS MADE BY GOD IN PERFECTION. BEN = JESUS CHRIST IN IMAGE, HOLINESS AND SONSHIP OF GOD. BEN IS AS MUCH A SON OF GOD AS JESUS IS! THIS IS WHAT BORN OF GOD/REBIRTH IS. NOTHING LESS!
So many people confuse the calling with rebirth. Calling of God is the first step God performs to save you. Rebirth is the last. There is NO HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU BEFORE GOD GIVES YOU REBIRTH AT THE END OF SANCTIFICATION!
No matter what you try to preach about not sinning or being sinless, you live in a body of sin and death and you won't be delivered from that body until you receive your new glorified one and that won't happen until your body is taken up either dead or alive. You have a sin nature that dwells in the very cells and members of your body and when God saved you and cleansed you from sin He did not eradicate or remove that sin nature. He made you a new creature but left that old sin nature with us so that we would have to depend upon Him and learn how to receive grace and truth that we might grow in Him.
We have victory over the dominion of sin through the cross and we must receive grace continually. The apostle Paul lived in a body of sin and death and understood that his deliverance was future and until then he blamed the sin nature that dwelt in the members of his body for the sin that he would commit and he never condemned himself for any of those sins. You ignore these things because you do not want them to be a part of your faith and you are without a balance. You don't see that as being stubborn, but it is. You will go right on in this thread and try to talk over it and block it out. That is willful blindness on your part because you refuse to acknowledge that our position in Christ, which is perfect, is not the same as our experience.
We are growing unto perfection in our experience but have not arrived yet and in that process through trials and temptations we will fail and sin but God will raise us up and make us stand in His grace with no condemnation. We will not excuse our sin because we know it comes from the sin nature in us. We will confess our sin and lay it aside when we fail because Christ was judged for it and put it away. That is the victory of how we overcome the dominion of sin and not by abstaining through the energy of the flesh. No man is justified from abstaining from sin through the law of the flesh.
We have victory over the dominion of sin through the cross and we must receive grace continually. The apostle Paul lived in a body of sin and death and understood that his deliverance was future and until then he blamed the sin nature that dwelt in the members of his body for the sin that he would commit and he never condemned himself for any of those sins. You ignore these things because you do not want them to be a part of your faith and you are without a balance. You don't see that as being stubborn, but it is. You will go right on in this thread and try to talk over it and block it out. That is willful blindness on your part because you refuse to acknowledge that our position in Christ, which is perfect, is not the same as our experience.
We are growing unto perfection in our experience but have not arrived yet and in that process through trials and temptations we will fail and sin but God will raise us up and make us stand in His grace with no condemnation. We will not excuse our sin because we know it comes from the sin nature in us. We will confess our sin and lay it aside when we fail because Christ was judged for it and put it away. That is the victory of how we overcome the dominion of sin and not by abstaining through the energy of the flesh. No man is justified from abstaining from sin through the law of the flesh.
M
James and Paul can't contradict each other, simply because the Bible is the infallible God-breathed truth. That is what's so AMAZING about the Bible...it's such an eclectic book of various authors over a VAST expanse of time. And NONE OF IT contradicts another part. It's incredibly coherent for what it is...a gathering of records, songs, letters, stories...and it all points to Jesus Christ in perfect clarity and harmony.
The minute you start to wonder if the Bible could be mistaken or contradictory, you open the door to a very dangerous path. Having said that, it is our responsibility as mature Christians to search out the Scriptures and understand them, growing in the knowledge of God. And this knowledge will build our faith, and our faith will produce good works as a result.
The minute you start to wonder if the Bible could be mistaken or contradictory, you open the door to a very dangerous path. Having said that, it is our responsibility as mature Christians to search out the Scriptures and understand them, growing in the knowledge of God. And this knowledge will build our faith, and our faith will produce good works as a result.
RED33, firstly let me just break the curse you speak out on me, if you need to refer to something in the future do not speak a damning or curse out. This is what James warns us about, with the same tongue you want to praise God you curse others. To say I will never be delivered from this sinful body here on earth, is a curse, and I break that curse with God's WORD... Look what will COMPLETELY remove sin from THIS FLESH.. but God has to give me a NEW HEART.... And if you say I will not receive this heart that is a curse... So here goes the breaking your curse on me.... Lord please let me one of the ones that does receive a NEW HEART from you, and let not the curse of RED33 be true in my life, AMEN!
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Sorry RED33, you have it all wrong. I did not write 1 John 3, or Matthew 5:58 or this, and please NOTE WHAT GOD SAYS HERE, NOT ME, not you, GOD... God says ... 2 Cor 5:17... 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
RED33, please note.... old things are passed... If God says they are passed, they are PASSED...DEAD!!!! and look God says, BEHOLD... that is TAKE NOTE.... ALL things are become NEW!!!! You think this NEW has ANY old dead in it? NOPE!!! This is where you miss the pot cmpletely. You think God cannot make a person perfect! But this says EXACTLY that the NEW CREATURE is ALL New! And you people keep dragging the DEAD OLD ONE ALONG!
There is NOTHING old remaining, and in the NEW is not ONE THING of the old, EVEN the very CELLS you talk about ...EVERY CELL IS QUICKENED AND RENEWED BY GOD, EVERY CELL!
God dos not PUT HIS NEW WINE IN AN OLD BOTTLE! Even the Bottle (your flesh is renewed by the HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE HE MOVES IN! God does this, and there is NOTHING Satan can do about this, neither his curses, neither any weapon he tries against those God destined for this NEW HEART/NEAW CREATURE.
I preach NOTHING, I show Scripture, God teahes, and His Spirit reveals it to whom it is meant. There is MANY people that knows this already, but there are the ones that will always remain... WORLD! Never GOD'S KINGDOM, because they are misled by Satan!
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Sorry RED33, you have it all wrong. I did not write 1 John 3, or Matthew 5:58 or this, and please NOTE WHAT GOD SAYS HERE, NOT ME, not you, GOD... God says ... 2 Cor 5:17... 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
RED33, please note.... old things are passed... If God says they are passed, they are PASSED...DEAD!!!! and look God says, BEHOLD... that is TAKE NOTE.... ALL things are become NEW!!!! You think this NEW has ANY old dead in it? NOPE!!! This is where you miss the pot cmpletely. You think God cannot make a person perfect! But this says EXACTLY that the NEW CREATURE is ALL New! And you people keep dragging the DEAD OLD ONE ALONG!
There is NOTHING old remaining, and in the NEW is not ONE THING of the old, EVEN the very CELLS you talk about ...EVERY CELL IS QUICKENED AND RENEWED BY GOD, EVERY CELL!
God dos not PUT HIS NEW WINE IN AN OLD BOTTLE! Even the Bottle (your flesh is renewed by the HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE HE MOVES IN! God does this, and there is NOTHING Satan can do about this, neither his curses, neither any weapon he tries against those God destined for this NEW HEART/NEAW CREATURE.
I preach NOTHING, I show Scripture, God teahes, and His Spirit reveals it to whom it is meant. There is MANY people that knows this already, but there are the ones that will always remain... WORLD! Never GOD'S KINGDOM, because they are misled by Satan!