Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Arianism is, indeed, error; as is Trinitarianism. Trinity is unsubstantiated inference. Veiled Tritheism with superimposed extra-biblical terminology of manufactured definition: "persons". God isn't three "persons".

Trinity is error. Filioque is heresy.
Jesus is Deity, but not a second of three "persons".
Jesus is God, Trinity is error and Filoque is Heresy. I would be interested in your description of God if it is not Trinitarian and includes Jesus being God.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
Because of Trinity doctrine, which insists it wasn't God in the flesh, but a PART of God in the flesh... just one of three God-persons, all individually distinct as eternally pre-existent "persons". Trinity doesn't say God was manifest in the flesh; it says the Son was manifest in the flesh.

This is why I was lost as a Trinitarian. Now I know in whom I have believed.

A half-truth leaves people searching for the rest wherever they can find it, so blame orthodox doctrine for not knowing and establishing the truth. Trinity has undermined the Christian faith in a way Trinis can't and won't see. I've been on both sides of the fence, and I see the truth. Trinis are blinded by indoctrination and a misplaced reverence.

Unless someone knows the truth of Rhema-Logos as the Word, they will hold onto their doctrines of men.

God's Soul/The Father was well pleased in the Son. The Spirit proceedeth from the Father. Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily; the express image of God's substance.

God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity. (Theos is Pneuma-Psuche-Soma of Heis Theotes.)

God is NOT three "persons".
Ahhh... Found it.
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
And yet... this is no proof-text for a Trinity of three God-"persons". Jesus is Deity, but not a second of three "persons".
What is the title of the thread again? Not to be mean, but aren't we focusing on Jesus being "God manifest in the flesh?"

I wasn't as much trying to "prove" the Trinity as the deity of Christ - you would agree that He is deity.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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What is the title of the thread again? Not to be mean, but aren't we focusing on Jesus being "God manifest in the flesh?"

I wasn't as much trying to "prove" the Trinity as the deity of Christ - you would agree that He is deity.
I certainly agree. My point was that Trinity doesn't have exclusive claim to the Deity of Christ as is often presumed. :p
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
I'll copy and paste for you in a bit.
Isn't it something like the Father is the Soul, the Son is the Body, and the Spirit...is the Spirit?

Please give me one Scripture that clearly states this - you would ask the same of Trinitarians or Oneness believers, wouldn't you?
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Isn't it something like the Father is the Soul, the Son is the Body, and the Spirit...is the Spirit?

Please give me one Scripture that clearly states this - you would ask the same of Trinitarians or Oneness believers, wouldn't you?
If scripture clearly stated God's constitution, we likely wouldn't have had 3 centuries of Orthodox formulation and 2 millennia of disagreement. I've previously provided a moderately thorough exegesis. That's more than ANY Trinitarian has bothered to do. The closest Trinis can get is inference. I don't rely on an extra-biblical, manufactured-definition term ("persons") to define God.

And I don't have a big issue with Oneness proponents. They're much closer to the truth than Trinity.

BTW... Spirit-Soul-Body is more the HOW. The WHAT is that the singular Transcendent God spoke forth the substance and identity of Himself as an Immanent Man; and all the created order came into existence as the substantial natural realm by that utterance.

You can read what I post for Grandpa if you choose.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Were you just kidding or am I part of some experiment?
Here's a start. :)

I'll post more later.

God as an eternal transcendant singular celestial "person" spoke forth the divine substance of Himself to bring with that utterance the creation of a non-transcendant (immanent) realm in which He manifested that substance IN and AS a rational-souled man as His non-transcendant "person". This was a spirit-procreative act; the Son born from realm to realm. The eternally pre-existent internal Logos became the external Son. The Son inherits all that is the Father's, including His very soul and spirit.

In eternity, Jesus is the finite external point of presence for God's transcendant omnipresence. Jesus is the eternally externalized "person" (prosopon) of God. Transcendance made eternally tangible. God contained, yet unconstrained. The "real" ization of God. God made "real" in the natural, temporal realm to which He remains transendent.

God's Spirit-Soul in a glorified Body. Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.

The HOW is the Word dividing asunder God's Spirit out from His Self (Soul) to indwell Christ and , ultimately, mankind. The Transcendent God spoke forth the substance and identity of Himself to become an Immanent Man. God's internal Logos became the external Son.
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
Here's a start. :)

I'll post more later.

God as an eternal transcendant singular celestial "person" spoke forth the divine substance of Himself to bring with that utterance the creation of a non-transcendant (immanent) realm in which He manifested that substance IN and AS a rational-souled man as His non-transcendant "person". This was a spirit-procreative act; the Son born from realm to realm. The eternally pre-existent internal Logos became the external Son. The Son inherits all that is the Father's, including His very soul and spirit.

In eternity, Jesus is the finite external point of presence for God's transcendant omnipresence. Jesus is the eternally externalized "person" (prosopon) of God. Transcendance made eternally tangible. God contained, yet unconstrained. The "real" ization of God. God made "real" in the natural, temporal realm to which He remains transendent.

God's Spirit-Soul in a glorified Body. Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.

The HOW is the Word dividing asunder God's Spirit out from His Self (Soul) to indwell Christ and , ultimately, mankind. The Transcendent God spoke forth the substance and identity of Himself to become an Immanent Man. God's internal Logos became the external Son.
Well, I wish I had a Scripture for this!!!...!!!

:)


I don't really disagree with what you're saying...it seems you're presenting bitarianism more than anything.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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I affirm:
There is One Deity.
The Father is Deity.
The Holy Spirit is Deity.
The Word (Son) is Deity.
These Three are One Deity.
The Father is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Holy Spirit is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Word is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Father is Uncreated and Unbegotten.
The Holy Spirit is Uncreated and Unbegotten.
The Son is Uncreated and the Only Begotten.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit nor the Son (Word).
The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son (Word).
The Word (Son) is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.
The Son proceeded forth and came from the Father, Sent by the Father.
The Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father, Sent by the Father and the Son.
(The Holy Spirit proceedeth NOT from both the Father and the Son [Filioque], though Sent by Both.)
Jesus is the Son of God and is Fully Divine, Begotten of the Father by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the son of man and is fully human with a rational soul, born of the virgin by the Holy Spirit.
The Virgin Birth of Jesus was a Supernatural Procreative Act of God, NOT a Creative Act.
God hath made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

I also wholly affirm the Nicene Creed, though I disaffirm the later Filioque-based "persons"-laced anonymous Athanasian Creed.

However... God is NOT three "persons". In fact, God is not "person(s)" of ANY quantity. "Person(s)" is a creedal term that unprecedentedly manufactured an alternate definition for an existing term and superimposed it upon scripture by inference.

In relation to God, only two words are rendered "person" in the KJV. Hupostasis (G5286) appears ONCE, in Hebrews 1:3. It is rendered "substance" in Hebrews 11:1 ("Now faith is the [hupostasis] of things hoped for...") Prosopon (G4383) appears ONCE, in reference only to Jesus in 2Corinthians 2:10.

Further... I have no issue with the term Trinity and its absense in scripture. Trinity is essentially a "shorthand" means of immediate recognition. It is descriptive, not defining. "Person(s)", on the other hand, is a clearly defining term upon which the formulated conceptualization of Trinity hinges. No "persons"? No Trinity. Trinity becomes Triadism or Tritheism without this one creedal, manufactured-definition, extra-biblical, superimposed term.

Historically, the first mention of Triad was by Theophilus (circa 180AD)in reference to God, His Word, and His Wisdom. The first use of Trinity (trinitas) was by Tertullian (circa 213AD) in his treatise against Monarchianism shortly before his descent into semi-heretical Montanism. He subsequently referred to the "persons" of God, but until this time referred to the degrees, forms, or aspects of God. Once "persons" terminology was adopted, all contemporaries began to adopt the term, leading up to the First Ecumenical Council at Nicea in 325AD.

My point? "Person(s)" is not from/by Apostolic authority and usage, and is extra-biblical. It is an adopted term with a definition manufactured specifically for formulation and expression of a God-model. It is NOT the Divine Expression of God by His Word or His Apostles.

To begin, remember that all original Godhead formulations were undertaken as a means of apologetics to affirm and maintain Monotheism while accounting for Jesus and, ultimately, the Holy Spirit. Those God-models that presented Jesus as created and/or non-deity were focused on maintaining Monotheism in the face of pervasive Polytheism, Pantheism/Panentheism, and the many forms of Gnosticism.

Of the various existing formulated God-models, only two represent Jesus as uncreated deity by substance: Trinitarianism and whatever label one places on modern Oneness (Sabellianism/Monarchianism/Partripassianism). The Trinity formulation presents God as three "persons", which makes F/S/HS too discreet. Oneness presents God as three "manifestations", which makes F/S/HS too indistinct. These can be reconciled with a deeper search for the truth of God's constitution.

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made. ...And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -John 1:1-3,14

John's use of logos is authorially unique. He is addressing much of his gospel and epistles toward refuting contemporary Gnostic and philosophical understandings. John's usage is referring to the Logos of God (Rev. 19:13). This contrasts to Gnostic usage to portray a lower demi-urge that was a lesser god, and Hellenistic understandings that hybridized Greek and Judaistic cultures.

The logos spoken word is comprised of two parts: Rhema and Logos (G4487 and G3056). Though distinct, rhema and logos are inseparable. There can be no logos without rhema. Alone within all of creation, man has been delegated the capability of logos. During the Incarnation of God's Logos (upper case), Jesus spoke the logos (lower case).

Rhema is the substance content of subject matter that is thought and spoken about. Logos is the reason, wisdom, and intelligent thought and expression of that rhema subject matter. (The following is specifically of God's Rhema-Logos.)

Rhema is the Divine Content of the Divine Expression; Logos is the Divine Expression of the Divine Content. BOTH Rhema and Logos PRECEDE THE ACT OF THE UTTERANCE.

To be spoken, Rhema-Logos is breath-borne forth from the internal depths of God's divine essence, containing the very substance of that divine essence in the external speaking forth from the internal; and that breath (Pneuma) is God's OWN Spirit.

Rhema-Logos is the total substance of the complete divine essence of God's Self, externalized from silence to expression by the breath of His Spirit. The internal Word became the external Son, eternally pre-existent to proceed forth (exerchomai) and come (heko) from God.

Logos is the intelligent thought and speaking forth of all that is contained in its counterpart, Rhema. Logos is the rational reason, wisdom, intelligence, and thought of God spoken forth in the word or discourse of His plan and arrangement to reveal Himself IN and TO His creation. It is His thorough contemplation of pondering, knowing, and expressing outwardly and externally from Himself. It is the Divine Expression.

That which is being reasoned, contemplated, pondered, and thought to be outwardly expressed is the Rhema. Rhema is the substance content of Himself... God's OWN Self. Everything that God IS is within the Rhema portion of the spoken word. It is the subject matter spoken about. The Logos reasons and thinks to speak forth the entire substance of content that is God's OWN Self. Rhema is the Divine Content OF the Divine Expression.

Rhema and Logos precede the act of the utterance. God SILENTLY planned and arranged within Himself everything He was afyerwards about to utter through His Word. While He was thus planning and arranging with His own wisdom and reason, He was actually causing the very substance of His divine essence to become the Word (Ho Logos), borne forth by His breath after it was initiated in the depths of His soul by His mind (nous) and His will (thelema).

God thought and willed to speak forth the entirety of Himself upon His breath. His mind and will and emotions thought and chose and felt to express, uttering the internal Rhema by the Logos to become the external Son.

God's OWN Logos spoke forth His OWN Rhema of Himself as flesh. His OWN Self as flesh. Not AS a separate "person". Not BY a separate "person". Not THROUGH a separate "person". Not WITH a separate "person". His OWN Self, that ultimately became the person (prospon) of Jesus Christ; God's OWN personality manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh. The fullness of the Godhead (Theotes) bodily. God's OWN singular personality within a virgin-born man.

The Infinite Uncreated God as Spirit uttered Himself forth to become flesh. Nothing had ever been external to God before He spoke. His speaking begat that which was internal to become external. As He spoke, all creation came into existence as the realm in which He would visibly and tangibly reveal His invisible and intangible Self to mankind who was made in His image and likeness.

Jesus is literally God embodied in flesh. Jesus is NOT another "person", but is the person (prosopon) of God.

Person (prosopon G4383) is most often rendered face or presence. In general, it is that part of anything which is turned or presented to the eye of another. It is face, outward appearance, person, personal appearance, presence; in the presence of and/or in the sight of. Literally, the personal presence of one in sight of another.

Jesus is the personal outward appearance and presence of God Himself in the sight of mankind. The invisible, intangible, eternal, uncreated God embodied (the substance of) Himself to be visible and tangible within His temporal creation. Jesus is God's personal presence face-to-face with mankind. His Word spoke His eternal substance into temporal creation within flesh.

In Romans 8:3, "...God sending His OWN Son" can literally be translated "the Son of Himself." Someone recently read an exegesis of that, and after 6 months of wrestling with my view, they immediately understood all I was presented. I include it for clarity for those it may help, but others may reject it entirely.

Creation (as a realm of existence) is external to God, though He is omnipresent within that creation. Contrast Pantheism (God IS everything and/or is IN everything) and Panentheism (Everything is IN God). The Son is the externalized Self of God in creation.

The following is how I exegete and present the Godhead. It is a HOW of what I've presented as much as it is a WHAT if God's constitution. HOW did God manifest His OWN self (person/prosopon) in the flesh?

The Rhema-Logos portion covered John 8:42...
"...for I proceeded forth (exerchomai) and came (heko) from God;..."

In John 15:26, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth (ekporeuomai) FROM THE FATHER..." [NO Filioque]

Ekporueomai is a compound of ek (G1537) and poreuomai (G4198).

Ek means out from; spoken of objects which before were in another object but are now separated from it, either in respect to place, time, source, or origin. It reflects the primary, immediate source from which something proceeds out of.

Poreuomai is from peira (G3984), with the idea of piercing; to pierce or run through to the other side. It comes from the base of peran (G4008).

The meaning of proceedeth (ekpoeuomai) is to be pierced through for separation and dispatch from the primary source and origin to another place and time.

Sent (pempo G3992) means sent, but with the idea of a temporary errand.

Proceedeth means... The Holy Spirit was pierced through for separation and dispatch from its eternal primary source and origin (the Father) to a temporal place and time.

In 2Thess. 2:8, we see scripture refer to the "spirit of his mouth". Rev. 1:16, 2:12, and 2:16 refer to the sharp two-edged sword OUT OF (ekporeuomai G1537) his mouth", as does Rev. 19:15 and 19:21.

OT Messianic Prophecy of Isaiah 42:1...
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; my elect, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles."

NT Quotation of Above in Matt. 12:18...
"Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgement to the Gentiles."

Apostolic Confirmation of Above in 2Peter 1:17...
"For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

God's Soul is well pleased in the Son.
The Father is well pleased in the Son.

"For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." -Col. 2:9
"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person (hupostasis - SUBSTANCE)..." - Heb. 1:3
"...in the person (prosopon) of Christ;..." -2Cor. 2:10
"...I will put MY SPIRIT upon him,..." -Matt. 12:18

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.
The Father is God's Soul.
The Son (Word) is God's embodiment (Body).

God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.
Man is spirit-soul-body of one person.

While Incarnate, the Word (Logos) spoke the word (logos) out of His mouth.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder (merismos G3311) of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow..." -Heb. 4:12

Merismos (G3311) is to separate or partition for distribution. Also rendered "gifts" in Heb. 2:4. Joints (harmos G719) is the parts of the body. Marrow (muelos G3452) is the source of blood. In Lev. 17:11, "...the life (nephesh H5315 - SOUL) of the flesh is in the blood." Joints-Marrow is body-soul.

The Word (Logos) is the only thing that can pierce (diikneomai) to the dividing asunder (merismos) of God's Soul-Spirit, Body-Soul.
The word (logos) is the only thing that can pierce (diikneomai) to the dividing asunder (merismos) of man's soul-spirit, joints-marrow.

The Holy Spirit was pierced through for separation and dispatch from its primary eternal source and origin (the Father) to a temporal place and time. God's OWN Logos did this to distribute His OWN Spirit from His OWN Soul to indwell us in the temporal. We are His temple. The presence of His Spirit within the Holy of Holies (naos) of our spirit as His abode. There He makes our depraved soul into the Holy Place for us to serve. Our body is the outer courts where we can all physically join together.*

In Acts 2:3, when the Holy Spirit is given at Pentecost... "And there appeared unto them cloven (diamerizo G1266) tongues of fire..."

Cloven (diamerizo) comes from the same root (merizo) as divide asunder (merismos) in Heb. 4:12, and is also rendered "gifts" in Heb. 2:4. Dia denotes separation; merizo is to divide. It means separated into parts and divided up. In the passive participle, meaning divided flames distributed out to each person from one common source. Merismos is largely the same, meaning partitioned for separation and distribution.

God's OWN utterance of His OWN substance of His OWN Self as His OWN Logos divides asunder His OWN Spirit from His OWN Soul to distribute it individually from the eternal into the temporal to accomplish our internal redemption from sin. Our spirit-soul is also divided asunder to receive the indwelling of God's OWN Spirit.

God is not three "persons". God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity. He embodied His OWN non-corporeal substance in the corporeal that we might see and know Him.

Jesus isn't 1/3 of God as the second of three God-"persons". Jesus IS God. The express image of His substance. The fullness of the Godhead bodily.

A word (person/s) isn't quick, powerful, and sharp enough to pierce and divide asunder any further than itself (person/s), and isn't part of the written record of the logos.

THE word is quick, powerful, and sharpet than any two-edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder of soul-spirit and body-soul (joints-marrow). Soul-spirit on one edge; body-soul on the other edge.


[One caveat... Because Trinity conceptualizes F/S/HS as discreet rather than distinct, the prayer in Gethsemane is NOT to be perceived as God's Body somehow praying to God's Soul. I present no such fractured concept. Body = Embodiment. The embodiment was of God's eternal divine substance within a man with a rational human soul.]

There's much more, especially about the conception and how a soul is emergently derived by spirit-body joining (Gen. 2:7); but that's the basic outline.

P.S. NO Nestorianism, Eutychianism, or Apollinarianism is expressed or implied!!!!


More on Rhema...

"For with God, (no)thing (rhema G4487) shall be impossible." -Luke 1:37

"And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be (ginomai) it unto me according to thy word (rhema G4487)." - Luke 1:38

"But Mary kept all these things (rhema G4487), and pondered (sumballo G4820) in her heart." -Luke 2:19


Remember... "...faith is the substance (hupostasis G5287) of things hoped for (elpizo G1679), the evidence (elehchos G1650) of things not seen." -Heb. 11:1

And... "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person (hupostasis G5287), and upholding all things by the word (rhema G4487) of his power (dunamis G1411), ..." -Heb. 1:3a

And... "...and the power (dunamis G1411) of the Highest shall overshadow thee;..." - Luke 1:35


I see that the HS is God's OWN Spirit, not a third discreet God-"person". Jesus said He and the Father would come and make their abode in us, and we also see references to the indwelling HS. If none of the F/S/HS are each other and they're three distinct God-"people"; how do all three "persons" indwell us? And how are they ALL both indwelling millions of saints' glorified bodies and still hangin' around sitting in proximity finite positions in/on a throne?

God indwells each of our spirits temporally AND eternally by having divided asunder His OWN Spirit from His OWN Soul by His OWN Logos (spoken from the eternal realm INTO the temporal realm); and while Incarnate, the Logos spoke the logos (WITHIN the temporal realm) to divide asunder our sin-melded soul and spirit that He might make His abode in us as His temple.

In eternity, we ARE the many mansions (mone G3438) in His house (oikia G3614).

AND GET THIS!!!!

He then says (in John 14:2b), "I go (poreuomai G4198) to prepare a place (topos G5117) for you."

"I go" is poreuomai (to transport oneself, to go from one place to another), which is from peran (to pierce or run through). Jesus is going as the Logos to pierce through and partition for individual distribution the Holy Spirit.

"Place" is topos. Of things, as a place where something is kept such as a sword, meaning a sheath or scabbard.

Jesus (Ho Logos) is literally preparing to pierce and divide asunder God's Spirit from the Father (God's Soul); and to make room in our spirit for its resting place. The Sword of the Spirit in the sheath/scabbard of our spirit.

The High Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek eternally dwelling in His Holy of Holies... OUR SPIRIT.


Jesus IS the Word that was spoken forth. Since the expression is preceeding by the content OF expression, the Logos was eternally before the beginning WITH God.

With is pros (G4314), and indicates motion/direction, such as toward. "The Word had been toward (the) God and was (the) God."

This is DIRECTIONAL, not RELATIONAL. A focus. An intensity of attention. Toward.

It is God's OWN Logos expressing God's OWN Rhema content of God's OWN substance, which is being externalized from eternal silent pondering and reason to be the expression of Himself within and upon the canvas of creation as the backrop for His Incarnation.

The Logos is God in the temporal. Once Incarnate, the Word was within a rational-souled man.

A finite point of presence for God's entire substance. God spoke the substance of Himself into His own creation.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Well, I wish I had a Scripture for this!!!...!!!

:)


I don't really disagree with what you're saying...it seems you're presenting bitarianism more than anything.
There's plenty of scripture and vital Greek exegesis in the above, yes?! :)
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
I affirm:
There is One Deity.
The Father is Deity.
The Holy Spirit is Deity.
The Word (Son) is Deity.
These Three are One Deity.
The Father is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Holy Spirit is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Word is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Father is Uncreated and Unbegotten.
The Holy Spirit is Uncreated and Unbegotten.
The Son is Uncreated and the Only Begotten.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit nor the Son (Word).
The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son (Word).
The Word (Son) is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.
The Son proceeded forth and came from the Father, Sent by the Father.
The Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father, Sent by the Father and the Son.
(The Holy Spirit proceedeth NOT from both the Father and the Son [Filioque], though Sent by Both.)
Jesus is the Son of God and is Fully Divine, Begotten of the Father by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the son of man and is fully human with a rational soul, born of the virgin by the Holy Spirit.
The Virgin Birth of Jesus was a Supernatural Procreative Act of God, NOT a Creative Act.
God hath made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

I also wholly affirm the Nicene Creed, though I disaffirm the later Filioque-based "persons"-laced anonymous Athanasian Creed.

However... God is NOT three "persons". In fact, God is not "person(s)" of ANY quantity. "Person(s)" is a creedal term that unprecedentedly manufactured an alternate definition for an existing term and superimposed it upon scripture by inference.

In relation to God, only two words are rendered "person" in the KJV. Hupostasis (G5286) appears ONCE, in Hebrews 1:3. It is rendered "substance" in Hebrews 11:1 ("Now faith is the [hupostasis] of things hoped for...") Prosopon (G4383) appears ONCE, in reference only to Jesus in 2Corinthians 2:10.

Further... I have no issue with the term Trinity and its absense in scripture. Trinity is essentially a "shorthand" means of immediate recognition. It is descriptive, not defining. "Person(s)", on the other hand, is a clearly defining term upon which the formulated conceptualization of Trinity hinges. No "persons"? No Trinity. Trinity becomes Triadism or Tritheism without this one creedal, manufactured-definition, extra-biblical, superimposed term.

Historically, the first mention of Triad was by Theophilus (circa 180AD)in reference to God, His Word, and His Wisdom. The first use of Trinity (trinitas) was by Tertullian (circa 213AD) in his treatise against Monarchianism shortly before his descent into semi-heretical Montanism. He subsequently referred to the "persons" of God, but until this time referred to the degrees, forms, or aspects of God. Once "persons" terminology was adopted, all contemporaries began to adopt the term, leading up to the First Ecumenical Council at Nicea in 325AD.

My point? "Person(s)" is not from/by Apostolic authority and usage, and is extra-biblical. It is an adopted term with a definition manufactured specifically for formulation and expression of a God-model. It is NOT the Divine Expression of God by His Word or His Apostles.

To begin, remember that all original Godhead formulations were undertaken as a means of apologetics to affirm and maintain Monotheism while accounting for Jesus and, ultimately, the Holy Spirit. Those God-models that presented Jesus as created and/or non-deity were focused on maintaining Monotheism in the face of pervasive Polytheism, Pantheism/Panentheism, and the many forms of Gnosticism.

Of the various existing formulated God-models, only two represent Jesus as uncreated deity by substance: Trinitarianism and whatever label one places on modern Oneness (Sabellianism/Monarchianism/Partripassianism). The Trinity formulation presents God as three "persons", which makes F/S/HS too discreet. Oneness presents God as three "manifestations", which makes F/S/HS too indistinct. These can be reconciled with a deeper search for the truth of God's constitution.

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made. ...And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -John 1:1-3,14

John's use of logos is authorially unique. He is addressing much of his gospel and epistles toward refuting contemporary Gnostic and philosophical understandings. John's usage is referring to the Logos of God (Rev. 19:13). This contrasts to Gnostic usage to portray a lower demi-urge that was a lesser god, and Hellenistic understandings that hybridized Greek and Judaistic cultures.

The logos spoken word is comprised of two parts: Rhema and Logos (G4487 and G3056). Though distinct, rhema and logos are inseparable. There can be no logos without rhema. Alone within all of creation, man has been delegated the capability of logos. During the Incarnation of God's Logos (upper case), Jesus spoke the logos (lower case).

Rhema is the substance content of subject matter that is thought and spoken about. Logos is the reason, wisdom, and intelligent thought and expression of that rhema subject matter. (The following is specifically of God's Rhema-Logos.)

Rhema is the Divine Content of the Divine Expression; Logos is the Divine Expression of the Divine Content. BOTH Rhema and Logos PRECEDE THE ACT OF THE UTTERANCE.

To be spoken, Rhema-Logos is breath-borne forth from the internal depths of God's divine essence, containing the very substance of that divine essence in the external speaking forth from the internal; and that breath (Pneuma) is God's OWN Spirit.

Rhema-Logos is the total substance of the complete divine essence of God's Self, externalized from silence to expression by the breath of His Spirit. The internal Word became the external Son, eternally pre-existent to proceed forth (exerchomai) and come (heko) from God.

Logos is the intelligent thought and speaking forth of all that is contained in its counterpart, Rhema. Logos is the rational reason, wisdom, intelligence, and thought of God spoken forth in the word or discourse of His plan and arrangement to reveal Himself IN and TO His creation. It is His thorough contemplation of pondering, knowing, and expressing outwardly and externally from Himself. It is the Divine Expression.

That which is being reasoned, contemplated, pondered, and thought to be outwardly expressed is the Rhema. Rhema is the substance content of Himself... God's OWN Self. Everything that God IS is within the Rhema portion of the spoken word. It is the subject matter spoken about. The Logos reasons and thinks to speak forth the entire substance of content that is God's OWN Self. Rhema is the Divine Content OF the Divine Expression.

Rhema and Logos precede the act of the utterance. God SILENTLY planned and arranged within Himself everything He was afyerwards about to utter through His Word. While He was thus planning and arranging with His own wisdom and reason, He was actually causing the very substance of His divine essence to become the Word (Ho Logos), borne forth by His breath after it was initiated in the depths of His soul by His mind (nous) and His will (thelema).

God thought and willed to speak forth the entirety of Himself upon His breath. His mind and will and emotions thought and chose and felt to express, uttering the internal Rhema by the Logos to become the external Son.

God's OWN Logos spoke forth His OWN Rhema of Himself as flesh. His OWN Self as flesh. Not AS a separate "person". Not BY a separate "person". Not THROUGH a separate "person". Not WITH a separate "person". His OWN Self, that ultimately became the person (prospon) of Jesus Christ; God's OWN personality manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh. The fullness of the Godhead (Theotes) bodily. God's OWN singular personality within a virgin-born man.

The Infinite Uncreated God as Spirit uttered Himself forth to become flesh. Nothing had ever been external to God before He spoke. His speaking begat that which was internal to become external. As He spoke, all creation came into existence as the realm in which He would visibly and tangibly reveal His invisible and intangible Self to mankind who was made in His image and likeness.

Jesus is literally God embodied in flesh. Jesus is NOT another "person", but is the person (prosopon) of God.

Person (prosopon G4383) is most often rendered face or presence. In general, it is that part of anything which is turned or presented to the eye of another. It is face, outward appearance, person, personal appearance, presence; in the presence of and/or in the sight of. Literally, the personal presence of one in sight of another.

Jesus is the personal outward appearance and presence of God Himself in the sight of mankind. The invisible, intangible, eternal, uncreated God embodied (the substance of) Himself to be visible and tangible within His temporal creation. Jesus is God's personal presence face-to-face with mankind. His Word spoke His eternal substance into temporal creation within flesh.

In Romans 8:3, "...God sending His OWN Son" can literally be translated "the Son of Himself." Someone recently read an exegesis of that, and after 6 months of wrestling with my view, they immediately understood all I was presented. I include it for clarity for those it may help, but others may reject it entirely.

Creation (as a realm of existence) is external to God, though He is omnipresent within that creation. Contrast Pantheism (God IS everything and/or is IN everything) and Panentheism (Everything is IN God). The Son is the externalized Self of God in creation.

The following is how I exegete and present the Godhead. It is a HOW of what I've presented as much as it is a WHAT if God's constitution. HOW did God manifest His OWN self (person/prosopon) in the flesh?

The Rhema-Logos portion covered John 8:42...
"...for I proceeded forth (exerchomai) and came (heko) from God;..."

In John 15:26, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth (ekporeuomai) FROM THE FATHER..." [NO Filioque]

Ekporueomai is a compound of ek (G1537) and poreuomai (G4198).

Ek means out from; spoken of objects which before were in another object but are now separated from it, either in respect to place, time, source, or origin. It reflects the primary, immediate source from which something proceeds out of.

Poreuomai is from peira (G3984), with the idea of piercing; to pierce or run through to the other side. It comes from the base of peran (G4008).

The meaning of proceedeth (ekpoeuomai) is to be pierced through for separation and dispatch from the primary source and origin to another place and time.

Sent (pempo G3992) means sent, but with the idea of a temporary errand.

Proceedeth means... The Holy Spirit was pierced through for separation and dispatch from its eternal primary source and origin (the Father) to a temporal place and time.

In 2Thess. 2:8, we see scripture refer to the "spirit of his mouth". Rev. 1:16, 2:12, and 2:16 refer to the sharp two-edged sword OUT OF (ekporeuomai G1537) his mouth", as does Rev. 19:15 and 19:21.

OT Messianic Prophecy of Isaiah 42:1...
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; my elect, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles."

NT Quotation of Above in Matt. 12:18...
"Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgement to the Gentiles."

Apostolic Confirmation of Above in 2Peter 1:17...
"For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

God's Soul is well pleased in the Son.
The Father is well pleased in the Son.

"For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." -Col. 2:9
"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person (hupostasis - SUBSTANCE)..." - Heb. 1:3
"...in the person (prosopon) of Christ;..." -2Cor. 2:10
"...I will put MY SPIRIT upon him,..." -Matt. 12:18

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.
The Father is God's Soul.
The Son (Word) is God's embodiment (Body).

God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.
Man is spirit-soul-body of one person.

While Incarnate, the Word (Logos) spoke the word (logos) out of His mouth.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder (merismos G3311) of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow..." -Heb. 4:12

Merismos (G3311) is to separate or partition for distribution. Also rendered "gifts" in Heb. 2:4. Joints (harmos G719) is the parts of the body. Marrow (muelos G3452) is the source of blood. In Lev. 17:11, "...the life (nephesh H5315 - SOUL) of the flesh is in the blood." Joints-Marrow is body-soul.

The Word (Logos) is the only thing that can pierce (diikneomai) to the dividing asunder (merismos) of God's Soul-Spirit, Body-Soul.
The word (logos) is the only thing that can pierce (diikneomai) to the dividing asunder (merismos) of man's soul-spirit, joints-marrow.

The Holy Spirit was pierced through for separation and dispatch from its primary eternal source and origin (the Father) to a temporal place and time. God's OWN Logos did this to distribute His OWN Spirit from His OWN Soul to indwell us in the temporal. We are His temple. The presence of His Spirit within the Holy of Holies (naos) of our spirit as His abode. There He makes our depraved soul into the Holy Place for us to serve. Our body is the outer courts where we can all physically join together.*

In Acts 2:3, when the Holy Spirit is given at Pentecost... "And there appeared unto them cloven (diamerizo G1266) tongues of fire..."

Cloven (diamerizo) comes from the same root (merizo) as divide asunder (merismos) in Heb. 4:12, and is also rendered "gifts" in Heb. 2:4. Dia denotes separation; merizo is to divide. It means separated into parts and divided up. In the passive participle, meaning divided flames distributed out to each person from one common source. Merismos is largely the same, meaning partitioned for separation and distribution.

God's OWN utterance of His OWN substance of His OWN Self as His OWN Logos divides asunder His OWN Spirit from His OWN Soul to distribute it individually from the eternal into the temporal to accomplish our internal redemption from sin. Our spirit-soul is also divided asunder to receive the indwelling of God's OWN Spirit.

God is not three "persons". God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity. He embodied His OWN non-corporeal substance in the corporeal that we might see and know Him.

Jesus isn't 1/3 of God as the second of three God-"persons". Jesus IS God. The express image of His substance. The fullness of the Godhead bodily.

A word (person/s) isn't quick, powerful, and sharp enough to pierce and divide asunder any further than itself (person/s), and isn't part of the written record of the logos.

THE word is quick, powerful, and sharpet than any two-edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder of soul-spirit and body-soul (joints-marrow). Soul-spirit on one edge; body-soul on the other edge.


[One caveat... Because Trinity conceptualizes F/S/HS as discreet rather than distinct, the prayer in Gethsemane is NOT to be perceived as God's Body somehow praying to God's Soul. I present no such fractured concept. Body = Embodiment. The embodiment was of God's eternal divine substance within a man with a rational human soul.]

There's much more, especially about the conception and how a soul is emergently derived by spirit-body joining (Gen. 2:7); but that's the basic outline.

P.S. NO Nestorianism, Eutychianism, or Apollinarianism is expressed or implied!!!!


More on Rhema...

"For with God, (no)thing (rhema G4487) shall be impossible." -Luke 1:37

"And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be (ginomai) it unto me according to thy word (rhema G4487)." - Luke 1:38

"But Mary kept all these things (rhema G4487), and pondered (sumballo G4820) in her heart." -Luke 2:19


Remember... "...faith is the substance (hupostasis G5287) of things hoped for (elpizo G1679), the evidence (elehchos G1650) of things not seen." -Heb. 11:1

And... "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person (hupostasis G5287), and upholding all things by the word (rhema G4487) of his power (dunamis G1411), ..." -Heb. 1:3a

And... "...and the power (dunamis G1411) of the Highest shall overshadow thee;..." - Luke 1:35


I see that the HS is God's OWN Spirit, not a third discreet God-"person". Jesus said He and the Father would come and make their abode in us, and we also see references to the indwelling HS. If none of the F/S/HS are each other and they're three distinct God-"people"; how do all three "persons" indwell us? And how are they ALL both indwelling millions of saints' glorified bodies and still hangin' around sitting in proximity finite positions in/on a throne?

God indwells each of our spirits temporally AND eternally by having divided asunder His OWN Spirit from His OWN Soul by His OWN Logos (spoken from the eternal realm INTO the temporal realm); and while Incarnate, the Logos spoke the logos (WITHIN the temporal realm) to divide asunder our sin-melded soul and spirit that He might make His abode in us as His temple.

In eternity, we ARE the many mansions (mone G3438) in His house (oikia G3614).

AND GET THIS!!!!

He then says (in John 14:2b), "I go (poreuomai G4198) to prepare a place (topos G5117) for you."

"I go" is poreuomai (to transport oneself, to go from one place to another), which is from peran (to pierce or run through). Jesus is going as the Logos to pierce through and partition for individual distribution the Holy Spirit.

"Place" is topos. Of things, as a place where something is kept such as a sword, meaning a sheath or scabbard.

Jesus (Ho Logos) is literally preparing to pierce and divide asunder God's Spirit from the Father (God's Soul); and to make room in our spirit for its resting place. The Sword of the Spirit in the sheath/scabbard of our spirit.

The High Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek eternally dwelling in His Holy of Holies... OUR SPIRIT.


Jesus IS the Word that was spoken forth. Since the expression is preceeding by the content OF expression, the Logos was eternally before the beginning WITH God.

With is pros (G4314), and indicates motion/direction, such as toward. "The Word had been toward (the) God and was (the) God."

This is DIRECTIONAL, not RELATIONAL. A focus. An intensity of attention. Toward.

It is God's OWN Logos expressing God's OWN Rhema content of God's OWN substance, which is being externalized from eternal silent pondering and reason to be the expression of Himself within and upon the canvas of creation as the backrop for His Incarnation.

The Logos is God in the temporal. Once Incarnate, the Word was within a rational-souled man.

A finite point of presence for God's entire substance. God spoke the substance of Himself into His own creation.
Well, I don't really disagree with this - when I think of God, it usually lines up with what you said. The Body-Soul-Spirit concept is pretty impressive - I would have never thought of that.

Who knows? Maybe it is a better formulation than "persons."


I think, in all, none of it matters really unless you're worshiping the very God you're describing - which I'm sure you do.



Grace and Love
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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That was amazing PneumaPsucheSoma. I don't understand all of it but I think I get the main points. Especially God being Spirit, Body, Soul of ONE GOD. The Bible says that God made man in His image. We are body, soul, and spirit and yet we are one.

Thanks for all the hard work.

God Bless You
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
So, it stands that Jesus is, in fact, deity.

It seems the thread is now more about "How is He deity?"
 
Feb 23, 2011
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That was amazing PneumaPsucheSoma. I don't understand all of it but I think I get the main points. Especially God being Spirit, Body, Soul of ONE GOD. The Bible says that God made man in His image. We are body, soul, and spirit and yet we are one.

Thanks for all the hard work.

God Bless You
Praise the name of Jesus, whom God hath made both Lord and Christ. I pray this truth will be a continual blessing and revelation in your life and spiritual walk.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
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So, it stands that Jesus is, in fact, deity.

It seems the thread is now more about "How is He deity?"
Yes. And it's as important HOW He is Deity as it is THAT He is Deity. After all, Tritheism affirms the Deity of Christ also.

This is life eternal, that you know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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So, it stands that Jesus is, in fact, deity.

It seems the thread is now more about "How is He deity?"
Here's the slam-dunk exegesis that Jesus is Deity. :)

Jesus is Irrefutably Divine by Substance and Identity
Philippians 2:5-8
5"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form (morphe G3444) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God; 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form (morphe G3444) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; 8And being found in fashion (schema G4976) as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Form (morphe G3444). When appearing with fashion, whole outward appearance (schema G4976), they are objective, for the form and the fashion of a thing would exist if it were alone in the universe, whether or not there was anything there to behold it. They cannot represent subjective ideas of non-existing things. The appearance of morphe (form) or schema (fashion) implies someone to whom this appearance is made. There needs to be a seer before something can be seen. It becomes objectively "real" by its subjective realization ("real"ization - made real).

In Phil. 2:6, morphe presumes an objective reality. None could be in the form of God who was not God. Morphe is the reality which can be externalized, not a mere shape that is the result of thought. It is the utterance of the inner life, a life which bespeaks the existence of God. He who had been from eternity en morphe Theou, in the form of God (John 17:5), took at his incarnation morphen doulou, the form of a servant.

Nothing appeared that was not in objective reality from the beginning. The fact that he continued to be God in his humanity is demonstrated by the present participle of huparchon, "being" in the form of God. Huparcho (G5225) involves continuing to be that which one was before. In the Incarnation, Jesus took upon Himself the form (morphe) of a servant , which is an inner attitude by taking upon Himself the shape (schema) of man. That was the only way He could die for man's salvation. The schema shape/fashion is the outward form having to do not with its essential/substantial being, but with His appearance.

Though huparchon is the present participle, it is in conjunction with morphe. Morphe is absolutely objective rather than subjective. It's not about eternality at all, it just presumes that presently being in the form (morphe) of God means it couldn't have been subjective. Morphe inherently insists that only God could be in the form of God. Huparchon simply refers to Christ continuing (now) to be what He was before. It denotes an existence or condition both previous to the circumstances mention and continuing after.

This passage deals with Jesus being substantial Deity, but doesn't address eternality. Any view of Him as eternally pre-existent will have to be substantiated elsewhere. This would simply be the bridge for that into the Incarnation. He couldn't have been insubstantial/subjective or non-existent/created. His beginning couldn't be here, because only God could be in the form of God, continuing to be what He was prior to that.

This is THE slam-dunk passage and exegesis that ABSOLUTELY and IRREFUTABLY confirms the deity of Christ. He had to have been God to be in the form (morphe) of God.
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
Here's the slam-dunk exegesis that Jesus is Deity. :)

Jesus is Irrefutably Divine by Substance and Identity
Philippians 2:5-8
5"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form (morphe G3444) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God; 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form (morphe G3444) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; 8And being found in fashion (schema G4976) as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Form (morphe G3444). When appearing with fashion, whole outward appearance (schema G4976), they are objective, for the form and the fashion of a thing would exist if it were alone in the universe, whether or not there was anything there to behold it. They cannot represent subjective ideas of non-existing things. The appearance of morphe (form) or schema (fashion) implies someone to whom this appearance is made. There needs to be a seer before something can be seen. It becomes objectively "real" by its subjective realization ("real"ization - made real).

In Phil. 2:6, morphe presumes an objective reality. None could be in the form of God who was not God. Morphe is the reality which can be externalized, not a mere shape that is the result of thought. It is the utterance of the inner life, a life which bespeaks the existence of God. He who had been from eternity en morphe Theou, in the form of God (John 17:5), took at his incarnation morphen doulou, the form of a servant.

Nothing appeared that was not in objective reality from the beginning. The fact that he continued to be God in his humanity is demonstrated by the present participle of huparchon, "being" in the form of God. Huparcho (G5225) involves continuing to be that which one was before. In the Incarnation, Jesus took upon Himself the form (morphe) of a servant , which is an inner attitude by taking upon Himself the shape (schema) of man. That was the only way He could die for man's salvation. The schema shape/fashion is the outward form having to do not with its essential/substantial being, but with His appearance.

Though huparchon is the present participle, it is in conjunction with morphe. Morphe is absolutely objective rather than subjective. It's not about eternality at all, it just presumes that presently being in the form (morphe) of God means it couldn't have been subjective. Morphe inherently insists that only God could be in the form of God. Huparchon simply refers to Christ continuing (now) to be what He was before. It denotes an existence or condition both previous to the circumstances mention and continuing after.

This passage deals with Jesus being substantial Deity, but doesn't address eternality. Any view of Him as eternally pre-existent will have to be substantiated elsewhere. This would simply be the bridge for that into the Incarnation. He couldn't have been insubstantial/subjective or non-existent/created. His beginning couldn't be here, because only God could be in the form of God, continuing to be what He was prior to that.

This is THE slam-dunk passage and exegesis that ABSOLUTELY and IRREFUTABLY confirms the deity of Christ. He had to have been God to be in the form (morphe) of God.
Try showing that to those who reject it...all we can do is pray.



Grace and Love