Jesus is God, Epiphany

Maranatha-TheLordIsComing · Apr 28, 2013

To begin with, I will review a very plane verse that Identifies the Lord as Jesus Christ,

1 Corinthians 12:3

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 2:10-11

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, [SUP]11 [/SUP]and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And now, read further, to where the Lord is our God.

Exodus 3:18Then they will heed your voice; and you shall come, you and the elders of Israel, to the king of Egypt; and you shall say to him, ‘The Lord God of the Hebrews has met with us; and now, please, let us go three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.’

Exodus 8:10So he said, “Tomorrow.” And he said, “Let it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God.

Deuteronomy 5:24And you said: ‘Surely the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire. We have seen this day that God speaks with man; yet he still lives.

Deuteronomy 6:4“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!

2 Samuel 22:32“For who is God, except the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?

1 Thessalonians 5:23[ Blessing and Admonition ] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Bookreader · Apr 28, 2013

So your connection is based upon the fact that the word is translated into Lord, in English.
And the word is translated Lord, in English.

An excellent example of eisegesis, unfortunately.

One of the main things you missed out is that at least some of the quotations you have quoted you have altered the case. I will quote directly from the NKJV which you claim to have used

Exodus 8:10 So he said, "Tomorrow." And he said, "Let it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

2Samuel 22:32 "For who is God, except the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?

These say LORD, not Lord.

A common confusion perhaps done on purpose by the monks translating in 1611 (who knows what undocumented instructions they were given...).
They use the capital LORD when the word in Hebrew is יהוה or YHWH often called Yahweh or Jehovah).
The reason they did this I think is for fear of breaking the commandment "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain").

It has of course not been told to people that Lord and LORD are different in the Old Testament. This, I suspect, has been intentional on the part of many.

A perfect example of the different words together in one sentence is here

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

LORD is translated from Jehovah (YHWH).
Lord is translated from Adon.

Adon is not only written in relation to God.
It is often translated as lord or Lord.

In fact here it's used about Abraham

Genesis 18:12 After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

Here it is used of an unnamed Levite

Judges 19:26 and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.

Here it is used of the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar

Daniel 1:10 And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink:

Here it is used about an angel

Zechariah 6:4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?

But in many places it is not even translated into lord or Lord at all - I've highlighted the english word translated from Adon.

1Kings 16:24 after the name of Shemer, owner of the hill, Samaria.

In this verse YHWH and Adon exist and are translated differently, the latter referring to Elijah

2Kings 2:5 Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day?

So, I think it's clear one cannot just look at a translation and use verses to match any preconceived idea or to bolster something one has been taught.
Beliefs have to come out of the Bible. We should not try to impose our beliefs upon it.

Maranatha-TheLordIsComing · Apr 28, 2013

Well He is no lord, and He is no angel, verses to support my claim are found below;

[h=3]Hebrews 1:5-12Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

The Son Superior to Angels[SUP]5 [/SUP]For to which of the angels did He ever say, You are My Son; today I have become Your Father,[SUP][a][/SUP][SUP][b][/SUP] or again, I will be His Father, and He will be My Son?[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]6 [/SUP]When He again[SUP][d][/SUP]brings His firstborn into the world, He says, And all God’s angels must worship Him.[SUP][e][/SUP][SUP]7 [/SUP]And about the angels He says:
He makes His angels winds,[SUP][f][/SUP]
and His servants[SUP][g][/SUP] a fiery flame,[SUP][h][/SUP]

[SUP]8 [/SUP]but to[SUP][i][/SUP] the Son:
Your throne, God,
is forever and ever,
and the scepter of Your kingdom
is a scepter of justice.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]You have loved righteousness
and hated lawlessness;
this is why God, Your God,
has anointed You
with the oil of joy
rather than Your companions.[SUP][j][/SUP][SUP][k][/SUP]

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And:
In the beginning, Lord,
You established the earth,
and the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]they will perish, but You remain.
They will all wear out like clothing;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]You will roll them up like a cloak,[SUP][l][/SUP]
and they will be changed like a robe.
But You are the same,
and Your years will never end.[SUP][m][/SUP]

John 1[/h]Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

[h=3]Prologue[/h]1 In the beginning was the Word,[SUP][a][/SUP]
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He was with God in the beginning.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]All things were created through Him,
and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Life was in Him,[SUP][b][/SUP]
and that life was the light of men.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]That light shines in the darkness,
yet the darkness did not overcome[SUP][c][/SUP] it.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]There was a man named John
who was sent from God.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He came as a witness
to testify about the light,
so that all might believe through him.[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He was not the light,
but he came to testify about the light.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The true light, who gives light to everyone,
was coming into the world.[SUP][e][/SUP]

[SUP]10 [/SUP]He was in the world,
and the world was created through Him,
yet the world did not recognize Him.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He came to His own,[SUP][f][/SUP]
and His own people[SUP][g][/SUP] did not receive Him.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But to all who did receive Him,
He gave them the right to be[SUP][h][/SUP] children of God,
to those who believe in His name,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]who were born,
not of blood,[SUP][i][/SUP]
or of the will of the flesh,
or of the will of man,[SUP][j][/SUP]
but of God.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Word became flesh[SUP][k][/SUP]
and took up residence[SUP][l][/SUP] among us.
We observed His glory,
the glory as the One and Only Son[SUP][m][/SUP] from the Father,
full of grace and truth.
[SUP]15 [/SUP](John testified concerning Him and exclaimed,
“This was the One of whom I said,
‘The One coming after me has surpassed me,
because He existed before me.’”)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Indeed, we have all received grace after grace
from His fullness,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]for the law was given through Moses,
grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has ever seen God.[SUP][n][/SUP]
The One and Only Son[SUP][o][/SUP]—
the One who is at the Father’s side[SUP][p][/SUP]—
He has revealed Him.

starfield · Apr 28, 2013

Yes, Jesus is God.
Matt 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
1 Tim 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

kardiaoangelous · Apr 28, 2013

Maranatha-TheLordIsComing said:

Philippians 2:11 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Romans 15:7 "Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God."

Christ is God's glory in that God does all things through and in Christ and Christ is completely and perfectly obedient to the Fathers will in all things.

I ask you, would it really make sense to even consider the possibility that God made anything without himself?

John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Might that be a clue we need to dig further?

AmorRegis · Apr 28, 2013

An interesting post, would it be possible that Lord of Lords, King of Kings refers to the office of High Priest? I noted that some of the "Lord" verses are all capitalized and some are not. These two "Lord" entries seem to denote a different entity.

Psa 110 NASB - The LORD Gives Dominion to the King. - Bible Gateway

Psalm 110

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Lord Gives Dominion to the King.

A Psalm of David.

110 The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Your people [SUP][a][/SUP]will volunteer freely in the day of Your [SUP][b][/SUP]power;
In [SUP][c][/SUP]holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
[SUP][d][/SUP]Your youth are to You as the dew.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]The LORD has sworn and will not [SUP][e][/SUP]change His mind,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]The Lord is at Your right hand;
He [SUP][f][/SUP]will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He will judge among the nations,
He [SUP][g][/SUP]will fill them with corpses,
He [SUP][h][/SUP]will shatter the [SUP][i][/SUP]chief men over a broad country.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He will drink from the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He will lift up His head.

Footnotes:

Psalm 110:3 Lit will be freewill offerings
Psalm 110:3 Or army
Psalm 110:3 Or the splendor of holiness
Psalm 110:3 Or The dew of Your youth is Yours
Psalm 110:4 Lit be sorry
Psalm 110:5 Or has shattered
Psalm 110:6 Or has filled
Psalm 110:6 Or has shattered
Psalm 110:6 Lit head over

AmorRegis · Apr 28, 2013

Is it possible that Elect One refers to Christ, and Lord of Spirits refers to the Father?

The Book of Enoch, Chapters 1-60

Enoch

Chapter 45

1 Parable the second, respecting these who deny the name of the habitation of the holy ones, and of the Lord of spirits.

2 Heaven they shall not ascend, nor shall they come on the earth. This shall be the portion of sinners, who deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and who are thus reserved for the day of punishment and of affliction.

3 In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.

4 In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it, and illuminate it for ever.

5 I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.

kardiaoangelous · Apr 28, 2013

starfield said:

Jesus was definitely proof to the sheep of Israel whose shepherds had neglected them that God was yet with them and had not abandoned them, just as it meant in Isaiah's day.

And at 1 Timothy 3:16 that word translated "manifest" Strongs 5319 says is, faneroo -- from 5318; to render apparent.

Men lacking spiritual eyes could not see God to know his righteousness and thus depended on their own righteousness which fell short and caused them to sin.

So God was made apparent in Christ that men could see God's righteousness through him.

5318 faneros -- from 5316; shining, i.e. apparent

As we see from the word which faneroo is born from, it means that Jesus shined God into the world through him as he could do as he is, Colossians 1:15a "... the image of the invisible God ..."

DeShonC · Apr 29, 2013

Maranantha-TheLordIsComing:
You seem to be forgetting one big thing. At the time they kept proclaiming in Exodus that their God was lord, JESUS WASN'T ON EARTH YET. They had never seen him. Jesus, when he came, said that he was GIVEN ALL POWER. Why would he give it to himself? No, God made Jesus Lord, they're separate.

Maranatha-TheLordIsComing · Apr 29, 2013

They are one, Jesus is God in the flesh, why is that so hard to understand. Isn't that why he was crucified because he claimed to be one with God?

Blain · Apr 29, 2013

If Jesus was and is not god how could he forgive our sins? Only god can do that. And if Jesus is indeed god then wouldn't the trinity also be valid? Or is it just the two that are one? Ponder a bit about that ppls

Maranatha-TheLordIsComing · Apr 29, 2013

AmorRegis said:

Is it possible that Elect One refers to Christ, and Lord of Spirits refers to the Father?

The Book of Enoch, Chapters 1-60

Enoch

Chapter 45

1 Parable the second, respecting these who deny the name of the habitation of the holy ones, and of the Lord of spirits.

2 Heaven they shall not ascend, nor shall they come on the earth. This shall be the portion of sinners, who deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and who are thus reserved for the day of punishment and of affliction.

3 In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.

4 In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it, and illuminate it for ever.

5 I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.

well though this is seemingly somewhat true, however the book of Enoch is not included in the Holy Bible, I don't see why the Elect One can't be the Lord of Spirits since He also created the Spirits. Nor does it show that the sinners will be set free and become righteous ones through the Elect One, supposing that these are even titles of God, which I doubt.

soldierofchrist4ever24 · Apr 29, 2013

Those who deny Christs Deity are heretics, and need to be prayed for.... Romans1:16 someone had to say it and i am unashamed of my Lord Jesus Christ

in Christ brother Travis

livingepistle · Apr 29, 2013

I recommend that everyone that claims to be an expert, novice, and simple fishermen/fisherwomen (believers) that question whether Jesus was God in the flesh read this. This is serious reading and research and will test whether you are truly in search of spiritual Truth or just enjoy debate.

“In investigating the holy mysteries of the divine Triad, I have thought that one ought to start from the man; for I see most men approaching their lofty speculation about the Word without having any fundamental understanding of CHRIST, and they attach little or no importance to the man, and give the true CHRIST quite over to oblivion. But I shall endeavor to recall to their memories who the CHRIST is. However, what and how much importance is to be attached to CHRIST, the Church shall decide.
Seeing that the pronoun indicates a man, whom they call the human nature, I shall admit these three things: first, this man is JESUS CHRIST; second, he is the Son of God; third, he is God." Translated by WILBUR, E.M. The two treatises of Servetus on the Trinity. London: Harvard University Press, 1932, p. 6

This excerpt is from the writings Michael Servetus: On The Errors of the Trinity. 1531 (trinitatis erroribus); Michael Servetus

Servetus was a brilliant man and believer in Jesus. He was the first physician to map the human cardiopulmonary system. He was burned at the stake as a heretic for opposing the Trinity Doctrine. The man directly responsible for his death was whom he considered a friend, Calvin, the herald supporter of the Trinity Doctrine of his time.

Sites to get started: http://servetustheevangelical.com/doc/ServetusFromBook.pdf Michael Servetus: Heretic or Hero? | The Old Landmark: Celebrating Apostolic Heritage

AmorRegis · Apr 29, 2013

Psalm 82:6

[SUP]6 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.

Footnotes:

Psalm 82:6 Lit I, on my part

John 10

Jesus Asserts His Deity

[SUP]22 [/SUP]At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; [SUP]23 [/SUP]it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long [SUP][b][/SUP]will You keep us in suspense? If You are [SUP][c][/SUP]the Christ, tell us plainly.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; [SUP]28 [/SUP]and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. [SUP]29 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I and the Father are [SUP][e][/SUP]one.”
[SUP]31 [/SUP]The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” [SUP]33 [/SUP]The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” [SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? [SUP]35 [/SUP]If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), [SUP]36 [/SUP]do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? [SUP]37 [/SUP]If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; [SUP]38 [/SUP]but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may [SUP][f][/SUP]know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” [SUP]39 [/SUP]Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.

John 10:24 Lit do You lift up our soul
John 10:24 I.e. the Messiah
John 10:29 One early ms reads What My Father has given Me is greater than all
John 10:30 Or a unity; or one essence
John 10:38 Lit know and continue knowing

kardiaoangelous · Apr 29, 2013

DeShonC said:

Psalms 110:1 (A Psalm by David.) Yahweh says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet.”

hopesprings · Apr 29, 2013

DeShonC said:

Except that it was Jesus who delivered the Israelites from the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt: [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[SUP][c][/SUP] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 1:5

Bookreader · Apr 29, 2013

kardiaoangelous said:

you know this one

When psalms was written it was a foretelling - Hebrews say "after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever"
not many years before.

Interestingly though - this is God promising something to Jesus.
"Yahweh says to my Lord" is supposed to mean
God says to Jesus. But that means Jesus is NOT Yahweh.

If Jesus were God how/why/where/when could he say "I promise myself" - yet it NEVER says.
And that is repeated dozens of times through the NT - and even in the OT

kardiaoangelous · Apr 29, 2013

Bookreader said:

I agree with you. And I know well that many Trinity believers are more emotional about their Trinity belief than any of the many Muslims I have ever met are about the Muslim way. I have never had a Muslim stand and scream and curse me but I have had that happen at least a dozen times by Trinity believers. So, it is rather obvious to me that we must walk very softly with them, if they are to benefit at all.

I understand their emotional involvement and I am sure you do also. So if anything I have said has given you the impression that I am a Trinity believer, no, that is not the case. Nor am I Duality believer. I believe that oneness to be such a beautiful thing by virtue of it being the unifying power of God's spirit of pure love. And I see that as being why God is said to be love. I see the Trinity and variations of that doctrine to diminish that beauty.

I have had the , "WOE!!!", experience too many times with Trinity believers simply because I made a brief incidental comment that I did not accept that doctrine. So to me, that is the spirit I see was in the conquests during the days of the early Catholic Church. No thank you. That is not how God appeals to anyone when it is genuinely him by his spirit of love through them working.

DeShonC · Apr 29, 2013

Also, in James it talks about how God can't be tempted. Yet Jesus himself declares that he "has been tempted in all things."

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