Jesus, the beginning of the creation by God?

[NWL]

To people who call themselves Christians, How can Jesus be God yet be the creation of God at the same time? (brackets are mine [ ])

(Revelation 3:14) “...These are the things that the Amen says, [who is] the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God..."

Many people here will say that in Revelation 3:14 that it's talking about Jesus not being the actual beginning of creation but beginner of creation or originator of creation. That teaching though is false, since throughout the Bible it talks of all things being made "through" Jesus, meaning the one using Jesus to create all these things is the originator/beginner of creation. With that being the case Rev 3:14 doesn't express that idea.

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "God...has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son...through whom he made the systems of things"

The other argument people use with Rev 3:14 has to do with the Greek word for "beginning" which is "Arche". In Greek "arche" can at times mean "beginning" and other times "ruler". So some people say that in rev 3:14 it's meant to express that Jesus is the head or ruler of Gods creation not beginning, thus they favor the ruler sense of the Greek word arche.

If people on here use that argument then your being completely unreasonable. The apostle John was the writer in Revelation, he also wrote the books; John, 1 John & 2 John. Now every single time John uses the word "arche" in all his other books, which is 21 times he always uses it the sense of something being the beginning in the sequence of something, not once does he use arche to mean ruler.

So when it comes to translating Revelations use of the Greek word arche in 3:14, how should people translate it? Well the same why John used it in every single one of his books to mean beginning, if people don't they're tricking themselves.

This all being said how can Jesus be a creation of God and yet God at the same time?

 

[Bowman]

To people who call themselves Christians, How can Jesus be God yet be the creation of God at the same time? (brackets are mine [ ])

(Revelation 3:14) “...These are the things that the Amen says, [who is] the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God..."

Many people here will say that in Revelation 3:14 that it's talking about Jesus not being the actual beginning of creation but beginner of creation or originator of creation. That teaching though is false, since throughout the Bible it talks of all things being made "through" Jesus, meaning the one using Jesus to create all these things is the originator/beginner of creation. With that being the case Rev 3:14 doesn't express that idea.

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "God...has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son...through whom he made the systems of things"

The other argument people use with Rev 3:14 has to do with the Greek word for "beginning" which is "Arche". In Greek "arche" can at times mean "beginning" and other times "ruler". So some people say that in rev 3:14 it's meant to express that Jesus is the head or ruler of Gods creation not beginning, thus they favor the ruler sense of the Greek word arche.

If people on here use that argument then your being completely unreasonable. The apostle John was the writer in Revelation, he also wrote the books; John, 1 John & 2 John. Now every single time John uses the word "arche" in all his other books, which is 21 times he always uses it the sense of something being the beginning in the sequence of something, not once does he use arche to mean ruler.

So when it comes to translating Revelations use of the Greek word arche in 3:14, how should people translate it? Well the same why John used it in every single one of his books to mean beginning, if people don't they're tricking themselves.

This all being said how can Jesus be a creation of God and yet God at the same time?

Let’s review Rev 3.14…


και τω αγγελω της ενλαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινοςη αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

Kai tō angelō tēs en laodikeia ekklēsias grapson tade legei o amēn o martus o pistos kai o alēthinos ē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou

Rev 3.14 And to the angel in the Laodicea assembly, write: This says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the origin, the creation, the God:


Concentrating on what you had highlighted as ‘support’ foryour Jehovah Witness stance, you seem to want to diminish Jesus’ deity by interpreting an English translation to mean that He was created.

First, Jesus is the one being directly quoted and His epithets are listed appropriately. Jesus is not applying these epithets to anyone else – as they are applied solely to Him, alone – same as He applies them to Himself all through Revelation chapters 2 & 3.




και τω αγγελω της ενλαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

In seven out of seven sequential verses, the formula ‘tadelegei’ (demonstrative accusative; indicative verb) precedes the nominative singular masculine article ‘o’.

This translates into what is being stated by the epithetslisted after the formula.

This means that listed epithets belong to Jesus – they do not represent separate entities.

The trend in all of these epithets points to Jesus’ deity - not to Him being created.

Further, each address to the assemblies initiates withJesus’ words, and then concludes with stating that the Spirit is the one who has just addressed them – thus, confirming the Trinity.

Secondly, this verse mandates that Jesus was never created and that He is the singular, nominative archē (i.e. the origin; the active cause), of the singular genitive creation, and the singular genitive God.

Jesus is God.

All things came into being through Jesus.

Thirdly, confirming that Jesus is the creator and not the creation, we have the following…



Peter to the Jews

ο θεος αβρααμ και ισαακ καιιακωβ ο θεος των πατερων ημων εδοξασεν τον παιδα αυτου ιησουν ον υμεις μενπαρεδωκατε και ηρνησασθε κατα προσωπον πιλατου κριναντος εκεινου απολυειν υμειςδε τον αγιον και δικαιον ηρνησασθε και ητησασθε ανδρα φονεα χαρισθηναι υμιν τονδε αρχηγον της ζωης απεκτεινατε ον ο θεος ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων ου ημεις μαρτυρεςεσμεν

ho theos abraam kai isaak kai iakōb ho theos tōn paterōn ēmōn edoxasen ton paida autou iēsoun on umeis men paredōkate kai ērnēsasthe kata prosōpon pilatou krinantos ekeinou apoluein umeis de ton agion kai dikaion ērnēsasthe kai ētēsasthe andra phonea charisthēnai umin ton de archēgon tēs zōēs apekteinate on ho theos ēgeiren ek nekrōn ou ēmeis martures esmen

The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob,""the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom youdelivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15)


Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed the ‘Originator of Life’ (de archēgon tēs zōēs), Jesus.

Here we can see the contrast that is being made as the Jews chose the release of a murderer(death) over that of Jesus Christ (the veryoriginator of Life).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If people on here use that argument then your being completely unreasonable. The apostle John was the writer in Revelation, he also wrote the books; John, 1 John & 2 John. Now every single time John uses the word "arche" in all his other books, which is 21 times he always uses it the sense of something being the beginning in the sequence of something, not once does he use arche to mean ruler.

You're making an assumption that John the apostle wrote the book of Revelation...

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

I would love to offer an in depth response, but I am currently using my cell phone to browse CC. However, be looking for a response here in the next several hours, and I will show you why your arguments are weak, and not at all withstanding. Until then... .

 

[notuptome]

Just what is time to an eternal God? There is only one God. God is Spirit and is to be worshipped in Spirit and Truth. God has revealed Himself to His creation as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. He is still one God existing before time and continuing to exist at the end of all time. It is indeed difficult for a finite being like man to comprehend and infinite being as God. We have a capacity to believe even that which we cannot fully comprehend. It's what makes us what we are. The image and likeness of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[NWL]

Secondly, this verse mandates that Jesus was never created and that He is the singular, nominative archē (i.e. the origin; the active cause), of the singular genitive creation, and the singular genitive God.

Thirdly, confirming that Jesus is the creator and not the creation, we have the following…

The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob,""the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom youdelivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15)


Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed the ‘Originator of Life’ (de archēgon tēs zōēs), Jesus.

You say all things came into being through Jesus but then yet contradict your statement by saying Jesus is the Originator of creation even using the NET Bible to back up your claim. For clarity sake I’ll re-post the scripture I used that shows the Father is the source/author/originator of creation;

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) “God…has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son… through whom he made the systems of things…”

Notice God through Jesus created the created the world. If you then had to call either the Father or Son the source of creation which one would it be? The title the Father gives it away doesn’t it? The Father is!

And again

(1 Corinthians 8:6) “…there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are…”

Notice again the Father is the originator of creation, “out of whom all things are” and Jesus was simply the person the Father used to create his wonders.

This being the case, Rev 3:14 cannot be expressing that Jesus was the Originator of creation or it contradicts other scripture, so my question remains un-answered.

 

[NWL]

You're making an assumption that John the apostle wrote the book of Revelation...

I'm not assuming I've looked at the evidence for and against who the writer of Revelation was, for there are too many similarities with Johns writings compared to the book of Revelation. Many other people too believe the Apostle John was the writer of Revelation along with the traditional thought.

 

[Bowman]

You say all things came into being through Jesus but then yet contradict your statement by saying Jesus is the Originator of creation even using the NET Bible to back up your claim. For clarity sake I’ll re-post the scripture I used that shows the Father is the source/author/originator of creation;

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) “God…has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son… through whom he made the systems of things…”

Notice God through Jesus created the created the world. If you then had to call either the Father or Son the source of creation which one would it be? The title the Father gives it away doesn’t it? The Father is!

And again

(1 Corinthians 8:6) “…there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are…”

Notice again the Father is the originator of creation, “out of whom all things are” and Jesus was simply the person the Father used to create his wonders.

This being the case, Rev 3:14 cannot be expressing that Jesus was the Originator of creation or it contradicts other scripture, so my question remains un-answered.

Examine all scripture before drawing a conclusion...


Jesus creates Universe Col. 1.16


οτι εν αυτω εκτισθητα παντα εν τοις ουρανοις και επι της γης ταορατακαι τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτεεξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται

oti en autōektisthē ta panta en toisouranois kai epi tēsgēsta orata kai ta aorataeitethronoseite kuriotētes eite archai eiteexousiai ta panta di autou kai eis autonektistai

For by Him all things werecreated; by that in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities; all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1.16)


Three separate and distinct primary prepositions are used todescribe Jesus’ creative power (i.e. ‘en’, ‘di’, & ‘eis’).

Three separate prepositions were used here to make itcrystal clear that three separate modes of operation are in effect at the sametime.

In each case, the preposition is flanked by the masculine singular, ‘auto’.

The first instance of ‘auto’ is in the dative singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is the object of the primary preposition, ‘en’, rendered as ‘by’.

The second instance of ‘auto’ is in the genitive singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is in direct possession of the creative act –i.e. He is in complete control of it – and is attached to the preposition ‘dia’rendered as, ‘through’.

The third instance of ‘auto’ is in the accusative singular masculine, again indicating that Jesus is the direct object of the preposition,‘eis’, rendered as ‘for’.

Thus, from this Biblical verse alone, creation is By,Through, and For Jesus Christ all atthe same time…indicating, yet, again, that He is the Triune creator God of the Universe.

 

[just-me]

This all being said how can Jesus be a creation of God and yet God at the same time?

Believe in the Trinity. The plan of salvation was not a second thought. It was totally thought out and planned before the foundation of the world.
John 17:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Colossians 1:16-20 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
John 14:5-9 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

[NWL]

Examine all scripture before drawing a conclusion...


Jesus creates Universe Col. 1.16


οτι εν αυτω εκτισθητα παντα εν τοις ουρανοις και επι της γης ταορατακαι τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτεεξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται

oti en autōektisthē ta panta en toisouranois kai epi tēsgēsta orata kai ta aorataeitethronoseite kuriotētes eite archai eiteexousiai ta panta di autou kai eis autonektistai

For by Him all things werecreated; by that in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities; all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1.16)


Three separate and distinct primary prepositions are used todescribe Jesus’ creative power (i.e. ‘en’, ‘di’, & ‘eis’).

Three separate prepositions were used here to make itcrystal clear that three separate modes of operation are in effect at the sametime.

In each case, the preposition is flanked by the masculine singular, ‘auto’.

The first instance of ‘auto’ is in the dative singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is the object of the primary preposition, ‘en’, rendered as ‘by’.

The second instance of ‘auto’ is in the genitive singular masculine, indicating that Jesus is in direct possession of the creative act –i.e. He is in complete control of it – and is attached to the preposition ‘dia’rendered as, ‘through’.

The third instance of ‘auto’ is in the accusative singular masculine, again indicating that Jesus is the direct object of the preposition,‘eis’, rendered as ‘for’.

Thus, from this Biblical verse alone, creation is By,Through, and For Jesus Christ all atthe same time…indicating, yet, again, that He is the Triune creator God of the Universe.

I'm surprised you still hold onto the flaw that Jesus is the originator of creation,you are quite right the three separate and distinct primary prepositions but because of the uses of 'en' & 'di' doesn't necessarily denote that Jesus is the originator.

For example my Building agent can buy me tools and materials for a construction project, draw out the plans to build the project and tell me exactly how to put it together piece by piece, he would be the source of the completed projected since he provided every necessity for me, but it would still be built 'by' me.

For you to carry on the claim that Jesus is the originator you have to deny Hebrews 1:1&2 that "God through [Jesus]... made this system of things"

I know you'll deny Hebrews 1:1,2 because that's all that separates Jesus being part of creation at Rev 3:14.

But I'll ask anyway, Bowman does Hebrews 1:1,2 show that Jesus was the originator of creation or God the Father?

 

[Bowman]

I'm surprised you still hold onto the flaw that Jesus is the originator of creation,you are quite right the three separate and distinct primary prepositions but because of the uses of 'en' & 'di' doesn't necessarily denote that Jesus is the originator.

For example my Building agent can buy me tools and materials for a construction project, draw out the plans to build the project and tell me exactly how to put it together piece by piece, he would be the source of the completed projected since he provided every necessity for me, but it would still be built 'by' me.

For you to carry on the claim that Jesus is the originator you have to deny Hebrews 1:1&2 that "God through [Jesus]... made this system of things"

I know you'll deny Hebrews 1:1,2 because that's all that separates Jesus being part of creation at Rev 3:14.

But I'll ask anyway, Bowman does Hebrews 1:1,2 show that Jesus was the originator of creation or God the Father?

There are scriptures showing that the Father created, that the Son created, and that the Spirit created.

You have chosen to isolate scripture pertaining to the Father, only.

Your unitarian mindset cannot distinguish between Jesus’deity and His humanity.

You will not find a Biblical verse which informs the reader that Jesus’ deity was ever created. However, you will find verses which tell us that His humanity was created.

Here is a classic Biblical example which mandates that Jesus’ divinity was not of the created order…



λεγοντες φωνη μεγαλη αξιονεστιν το αρνιον το εσφαγμενον λαβειν την δυναμιν και πλουτον και σοφιαν καιισχυν και τιμην και δοξαν και ευλογιαν και παν κτισμα ο εν τω ουρανω και επι της γης καιυποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης [εστιν] και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσαλεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και ηδοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων

legontes phōnē megalē axion estin to arnion to esphagmenon labein tēn dynamin kai plouton kai sophian kai ischyn kai timēn kai doxan kai eulogian kai pan ktisma ho en tō ouranō kai epi tēs gēs kai hypokatō tēs gēs kai epi tēs thalassēs kai ta en autois panta ēkousa legontas tō kathēmenō epi tō thronō kai tō arniō hē eulogia kai hē timē kai hē doxa kai to kratos eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn

Saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb having been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing. And every created thing in Heaven, and upon the earth, and underneath the earth, and upon the sea, and the things inall of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting onthe throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the power forever and ever. Rev 5.12 - 13



These verses clearly show the separation between created things ‘ktisma’ and Jesus’ divinity.

All ‘pan’ created things ‘ktisma’ in Heaven, on earth, under the earth, and upon the sea, and all things in them– thus, all created things in God’s creation, are shown to worship Jesus as God.


Clearly, Jesus is not part of any creation here, as this verse imparts to the reader that Jesus is divine – He is to be worshiped by the creation.

Jesus is to be worshiped as the ‘One’ upon the Throne.

But, who is the ‘One’ upon the Throne?

Revelation tells us that The Father sits upon the Throne(Rev 3.21); that Jesus sits upon the Throne (Rev 3.21; 7.17; 22.1 - 3), &that Theos sits upon the Throne (Rev 7.10 – 11; 7.15; 12.15; 14.5; 19.4; 22.1 -3).

This is the Trinity.

Jesus is worshiped as the ‘One’ Triune God upon the Throne.


How do scriptures such as these fit with your world-view?

 

[NWL]

There are scriptures showing that the Father created, that the Son created, and that the Spirit created.

You have chosen to isolate scripture pertaining to the Father, only.

These verses clearly show the separation between created things ‘ktisma’ and Jesus’ divinity.

All ‘pan’ created things ‘ktisma’ in Heaven, on earth, under the earth, and upon the sea, and all things in them– thus, all created things in God’s creation, are shown to worship Jesus as God.


Clearly, Jesus is not part of any creation here, as this verse imparts to the reader that Jesus is divine – He is to be worshiped by the creation.

Jesus is to be worshiped as the ‘One’ upon the Throne.

But, who is the ‘One’ upon the Throne?

Revelation tells us that The Father sits upon the Throne(Rev 3.21); that Jesus sits upon the Throne (Rev 3.21; 7.17; 22.1 - 3), &that Theos sits upon the Throne (Rev 7.10 – 11; 7.15; 12.15; 14.5; 19.4; 22.1 -3).

This is the Trinity.

Jesus is worshiped as the ‘One’ Triune God upon the Throne.


How do scriptures such as these fit with your world-view?

Bowman I haven’t shown you a single scripture so far which shows that the Father created all things soley, I admit that I’ve shown you verse that say he’s the source of creation by which he used his Son as an Agent through whom he made all things. I could’ve used scriptures such as Genesis 2:4 or Psalms 8:3 but I didn’t.

The fact is there isn’t a single scripture like 1 Corinthians 8:6 or Hebrews 1:1,2 that puts the Holy Spirit or Jesus in the Fathers place like it does in those verses. Hebrews 1:1,2 is so plainly shows that The Father created things through Jesus, that then doesn’t exclude Jesus of being a worker in creation, nor does it with the Holy spirits part, but as it says in 1 Corth 8:6 all things are out of the father but yet through Jesus.

I’ll ask you again Bowman, Does Hebrews 1:1,2 show that Jesus is the originator if creation or that the Father is the originator?

When you quote Rev 5:12-13 that in no ways shows that Jesus isn’t part of creation, all it shows is that all created things should show honour to Jesus and the Father, even if Jesus is or isn’t part of creation that would obviously exclude himself.
Such reasoning as your own is foolish, for example I could just as easily argue that since Jesus created all things that means he created the Father and Holy Spirit. Obviously that isn’t the case and goes without saying that he didn’t create the Father or his spirit. The same goes for Rev 5:12-13, it goes without saying that even if Jesus was part of creation he still wouldn’t need to honour himself.

With regards to the texts you provided for the persons sitting on the throne I guess that since Jesus says he will grant the apostles to sit on the throne with him that they too are part of the trinity? Am I correct?

(Revelation 3:21) “…To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne…”

So you going to answer my question yet in regards to Hebrews 1:1,2?

Also I'd like you to show me a verse too that says that we should worship Jesus? not in obeisance sense.

 

[Bowman]

Bowman I haven’t shown you a single scripture so far which shows that the Father created all things soley, I admit that I’ve shown you verse that say he’s the source of creation by which he used his Son as an Agent through whom he made all things. I could’ve used scriptures such as Genesis 2:4 or Psalms 8:3 but I didn’t.

If you had used Gen 2.4 (Yahweh Elohim - singular, plural) or Psalm 8.3 (Yahweh Adonai - singular, plural) then you would have driven your unitarian argument even further into the ditch.

Its a good thing that you decided not to use them...

The fact is there isn’t a single scripture like 1 Corinthians 8:6 or Hebrews 1:1,2 that puts the Holy Spirit or Jesus in the Fathers place like it does in those verses. Hebrews 1:1,2 is so plainly shows that The Father created things through Jesus, that then doesn’t exclude Jesus of being a worker in creation, nor does it with the Holy spirits part, but as it says in 1 Corth 8:6 all things are out of the father but yet through Jesus.

No denial of Jesus' divinity, nor that Creation was via the Son.

I’ll ask you again Bowman, Does Hebrews 1:1,2 show that Jesus is the originator if creation or that the Father is the originator?

It claims the Trinity, brother.

Seems that you need to study the OT scripture, that Hebrews is referencing, a little closer.

Heb 1.1 tells us that God spoke to the prophets....how did He do this? Ever heard of Malek Yahweh?

Further, it mentions Theos, not the Father.

When you quote Rev 5:12-13 that in no ways shows that Jesus isn’t part of creation, all it shows is that all created things should show honour to Jesus and the Father, even if Jesus is or isn’t part of creation that would obviously exclude himself.

Even in English, the reader can see that Jesus is not part of the created order.

You are going to have to do better than just positing your denial, here...

Such reasoning as your own is foolish, for example I could just as easily argue that since Jesus created all things that means he created the Father and Holy Spirit. Obviously that isn’t the case and goes without saying that he didn’t create the Father or his spirit.

That would be a most foolish assertion and one not backed by scripture.

The same goes for Rev 5:12-13, it goes without saying that even if Jesus was part of creation he still wouldn’t need to honour himself.

How could He honor Himself when He is already God?

With regards to the texts you provided for the persons sitting on the throne I guess that since Jesus says he will grant the apostles to sit on the throne with him that they too are part of the trinity? Am I correct?



(Revelation 3:21) “…To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne…”

No.

The Righteous reside on the Throne at the First Resurrection.

The scriptures shown declare worship of the Triune God, alone.

So you going to answer my question yet in regards to Hebrews 1:1,2?

Done.

Also I'd like you to show me a verse too that says that we should worship Jesus? not in obeisance sense.

σιμων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσινπιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

 

[NWL]

Bowman I will get back to you shortly, I currently only have mobile phone access.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

You're making an assumption that John the apostle wrote the book of Revelation...

There's strong support for Johannine authorship; however, there's even stronger support for understanding Revelation 3.14 to refer to Christ as, both, the Fashioner and the Ruler of all of God's creation. The argument set down by NWL, as will be shown, is not at all withstanding.

 

[NWL]

No denial of Jesus' divinity, nor that Creation was via the Son.

In what why Bowman do the words “God through his Son has made the systems of things…” not imply that the person here namely, God, didn't use his son as the Agent through which he created the world? You say that I'm in denial and yet your are ignoring scripture right in front of you.

Further, it mentions Theos, not the Father.

That's right Bowman its says Theos with the definite article just before it Are you now trying to say that the "God" mentioned in Hebrews 1 ins't referring to the Old Testament God? You'd really you'll stoop that low to try and defend your argument ay.

Regarding my disbelieve about your claim that Jesus wasn't created with Rev 5:12-13 as proof, you said;

Even in English, the reader can see that Jesus is not part of the created order.

You are going to have to do better than just positing your denial, here...

That would be a most foolish assertion and one not backed by scripture.

And your going to have to do better than that to try and prove Jesus wasn't created with Rev 5:12-13 as proof, in now way does it claim it. It's beyond me how you can claim such a thing with Rev 5:12 but then yet are capable to deny a scripture that says something so plainly such as Hebrews 1:1-2

You said; How could He [Jesus] honor Himself when He is already God?

My response was based on your poor scriptural reasoning regarding Rev 5:12-13, in no way would Jesus need to Honor himself.

The scriptures shown declare worship of the Triune God, alone.

Again please show me the scripture where it says to worship anyone else but the Father, I'd very much appreciate it, I'm also puzzled of how 2 peter 1:1 shows that we are to worship Jesus.

I've always thought that we were to worship the Father alone as Jesus taught.

(Matthew 6:9) “...YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified..."

(John 4:23) "...Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth..."

(Matthew 4:10) Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

So Bowman please be so kind to answer or show;

Is the God mentioned in Hebrews 1 referring to the Father, if not then who?

Who is the Original source in the following statement; The Grandfather through his Son created the Grandson. Again who is the Originator out of the three mentioned, my 13 year old sister could answer this one.

Show me the scriptural proof that you have we're meant to worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

 

[just-me]

To Bowman and NWL: I hope both of you can agree on this scripture which I posted in # 9 of this thread.
Colossians 1:12-19 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

 

[starfield]

Jesus stated that He is the Alpha and Omega and "before Abraham was, I am", which affirms His eternality and pre-existence. He was not created. He is God.

 

[RedTent]

To cut to the core, what is the meaning of eternity? Our human minds understands beginning, end, and time. To understand God and scripture, we would have to understand eternity and we haven't experienced that.

 

[DiscipleDave]

To people who call themselves Christians, How can Jesus be God yet be the creation of God at the same time? (brackets are mine [ ])

(Revelation 3:14) “...These are the things that the Amen says, [who is] the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God..."

Many people here will say that in Revelation 3:14 that it's talking about Jesus not being the actual beginning of creation but beginner of creation or originator of creation. That teaching though is false, since throughout the Bible it talks of all things being made "through" Jesus, meaning the one using Jesus to create all these things is the originator/beginner of creation. With that being the case Rev 3:14 doesn't express that idea.

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "God...has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son...through whom he made the systems of things"

The other argument people use with Rev 3:14 has to do with the Greek word for "beginning" which is "Arche". In Greek "arche" can at times mean "beginning" and other times "ruler". So some people say that in rev 3:14 it's meant to express that Jesus is the head or ruler of Gods creation not beginning, thus they favor the ruler sense of the Greek word arche.

If people on here use that argument then your being completely unreasonable. The apostle John was the writer in Revelation, he also wrote the books; John, 1 John & 2 John. Now every single time John uses the word "arche" in all his other books, which is 21 times he always uses it the sense of something being the beginning in the sequence of something, not once does he use arche to mean ruler.

So when it comes to translating Revelations use of the Greek word arche in 3:14, how should people translate it? Well the same why John used it in every single one of his books to mean beginning, if people don't they're tricking themselves.

This all being said how can Jesus be a creation of God and yet God at the same time?

You do error not knowing the Truth of Scriptures. No man has seen the Father at any time. Jesus is NOT The Father. We have seen Jesus. Jesus revealed to humans that there was a Father in Heaven, and He was His Son the First born. God is a Spirit, not flesh, like Jesus is. Jesus is in a Glorified body, He is flesh. the Father is a Spirit, He is not Flesh. The Father, before anything physical was made, created His first physical thing, Which is His First Born Son, Jesus Father created.
Why is the concept of the Trinity so hard for this generation to grasp? Scriptures plainly teaches that when a man and a woman marry they are no longer two, but one flesh. If you understand that, then you understand the Relationship of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. they are three, yet they are one. a husband and wife are two yet they are one. SIMPLE that even children could understand it, but leave it to this end times generation to complicate that which is simple, this generation strains at a gnat, but will swallow a camel.
Jesus plainly taught that His Father is in Heaven, while He Himself was on the Earth. Jesus is not the Father, Jesus revealed to us that there is a Father in Heaven. To believe that there is Jesus the Son of God, that there is a Father in Heaven who created that Son Jesus, and there is the Holy Ghost and those three are ONE, is as simple as a gnat. To believe that Jesus is the Father, and deceived people to make them believe a voice came out of Heaven yet was Him doing that voice, making all the people believe it was the Father in Heaven, and having to explain hundreds of verses away or make void, in order to believe that teaching, is a camel. like i said before this generation would rather swallow the camel, then to believe the simplicity in the Words of Jesus Himself, which plainly told us there was a Father, plainly told us that He is in Heaven, that plainly told us that no man has seen the Father at any time, plainly told us that all that He taught He learned from the Father, plainly told us that only His Father knew what time Jesus would Return, He Himself stated that He did not know when He would return, but His Father knew that. This is silly to me, if you believe Jesus is the Father, you believe a lie.

^i^