John 1:1 Why Jesus was God, but not the Father

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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
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#1
In English, the order of the sentence generally determines the use of the noun. The subject usually comes first. However, in Greek, the word order is flexible, and is used for emphasis rather than for strict grammatical functions. For example, if there are two nouns and one has the definite article, it is the subject.

Word order is also employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally, if a word is thrown to the front of a clause or sentence, it is done so for emphasis. When the predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis.

A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. English versions usually say, “and the Word was God.” But in Greek, the word order is reversed.

Καί θεός ήν ό λόγος or (Kai theos en ho logos)
And God was the Word

We know that “the Word” is the subject, because it as the definite article and we translate it accordingly “and the Word was God.”

Two questions, both of theological importance, come to mind
1. Why was θεός (theos or god) thrown forward?
2. Why does it lack the article?

The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definition article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.

John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism

To state this another way, let’s look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

1. καί ό λόγος ήν ό θεός
“and the Word was the God” Sabellianism*
2. καί ό λόγος ήν θεός
“and the Word was a god” Arianism+
3. καί θεός ήν ό ΄λόγος
“and the Word was God” Orthodoxy

From: Mounce William D., Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar

*Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.
The term Sabellianism comes from Sabellius, a theologian and priest from the 3rd century. Modalism differs from Unitarianism by accepting the Christian doctrine that Jesus is fully God.

+ Arianism is the theological teaching attributed to Arius (ca. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of God to the Son of God (Jesus of Nazareth). Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father.
Arianism is defined as those teachings attributed to Arius which are in opposition to mainstream Trinitarian Christological doctrine, as determined by the first two Ecumenical Councils and currently maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, all Reformation-founded Protestant churches (Lutheran, Reformed/Presbyterian, and Anglican), and a large majority of groups founded after the Reformation and calling themselves Protestant (such as Methodist, Baptist, most Pentecostals), with the exception of such groups as Oneness Pentecostals, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Iglesia ni Cristo and Branhamism

So is your church teaching you the truth about the Bible, or has it twisted this essential verse which tells us that Jesus was God, and yet a different person than the Father??
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#2
And that's exactly why everybody claims they are right. Another issue is the appropriateness of the English word "a", which Greek does not have.

So, since you put this in Bible study, I need to ask, why should we trust your argument and not theirs? I guess I am saying, can you prove your interpretation by comparison to other (especially koine) Greek usage of the period in contexts that would be less contested?

PS: I actually agree with your interpretation, but proof is another matter.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#3
John 3

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Are any of us able to explain Spirits with pure understanding?

John 4

22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee amhe.
Let us not try to answer what we have not been asked.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#4



oh greek, why are you so hard:confused:
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
2,947
113
#5
And that's exactly why everybody claims they are right. Another issue is the appropriateness of the English word "a", which Greek does not have.

So, since you put this in Bible study, I need to ask, why should we trust your argument and not theirs? I guess I am saying, can you prove your interpretation by comparison to other (especially koine) Greek usage of the period in contexts that would be less contested?

PS: I actually agree with your interpretation, but proof is another matter.

This is really NOT about proving the theology, although it does. It is about understanding Greek grammar, which the cults do not seem to understand.

An Greek primer will tell you that word order is everything. That is why there are "cases" for all the nouns, to tell you if they are masculine, feminine or neuter; singular or plural; but most important, whether they are

Nominative - subject
Genitive - possessive
Dative - indirect object
Accusative - direct object
Vocative - an expression of direct address

German is very similar in its use of word order and nouns which have case endings to tell you where they belong in the sentence. If I wrote something in German, and analyzed it, any German speaking person could tell you whether my presentation of the grammar was right or wrong. (It has nothing to do with theology! But it could prove a theological issue, and it is interesting that the Germans were the ones who were the biggest pioneers of theology.)

Same with Greek! There are only certain ways things can be read, and certainly we cannot apply English grammar back to Koine Greek. I had to translate orally Mark 1 for my final Greek exam. I remember one sentence was about 5 lines long in my Greek Bible. I had thoroughly prepared, and when I hit that sentence, the page had to be turned to find the subject, which was at the end of the sentence.

Thus, this very simple example is basic Greek Grammar in my OP.

Here are a few internet sources which confirm what I am saying:

Learning New Testament Greek: Nouns, Articles, and Position

How Greek Cases are Used

And Zone, Greek really isn't that hard! Well, maybe a background in German and French did help me quite a bit!!

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." 2 Tim. 2:15

A good resource for learning Greek in Bill Mounce's "The Basics of Biblical Greek". It comes with an exercise book, lots of exegetical studies, and for $50 you can view the videos on the website and ask questions in the forum

PS. Greek is largely a language of nouns, which is why they are studied first, and Hebrew is largely a language of verbs or action words. Of course, the other words are also important, but just a small difference between the two!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#6
Gotta' find my fishing pole. Somebody's opened a real can of worms.
John 10:30 fired up the Jews.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
T

TomH

Guest
#7
This is really NOT about proving the theology, although it does. It is about understanding Greek grammar, which the cults do not seem to understand.

An Greek primer will tell you that word order is everything. That is why there are "cases" for all the nouns, to tell you if they are masculine, feminine or neuter; singular or plural; but most important, whether they are

Nominative - subject
Genitive - possessive
Dative - indirect object
Accusative - direct object
Vocative - an expression of direct address

German is very similar in its use of word order and nouns which have case endings to tell you where they belong in the sentence. If I wrote something in German, and analyzed it, any German speaking person could tell you whether my presentation of the grammar was right or wrong. (It has nothing to do with theology! But it could prove a theological issue, and it is interesting that the Germans were the ones who were the biggest pioneers of theology.)

Same with Greek! There are only certain ways things can be read, and certainly we cannot apply English grammar back to Koine Greek. I had to translate orally Mark 1 for my final Greek exam. I remember one sentence was about 5 lines long in my Greek Bible. I had thoroughly prepared, and when I hit that sentence, the page had to be turned to find the subject, which was at the end of the sentence.

Thus, this very simple example is basic Greek Grammar in my OP.

Here are a few internet sources which confirm what I am saying:

Learning New Testament Greek: Nouns, Articles, and Position

How Greek Cases are Used

And Zone, Greek really isn't that hard! Well, maybe a background in German and French did help me quite a bit!!

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." 2 Tim. 2:15

A good resource for learning Greek in Bill Mounce's "The Basics of Biblical Greek". It comes with an exercise book, lots of exegetical studies, and for $50 you can view the videos on the website and ask questions in the forum

PS. Greek is largely a language of nouns, which is why they are studied first, and Hebrew is largely a language of verbs or action words. Of course, the other words are also important, but just a small difference between the two!
I looked at that Greek alphabet again, sister, since you prodded me, but I'm so burned out I have a hard time remembering the names of my neighbors. So I think I'm just going to have to rely on other folks to translate for me.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#8
I don't know if I am missing something but I have never had a problem with this. Verse 14 tells us the Word is Jesus which means that John 1:1 is telling us:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

or:

"In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."

or:

"In the beginning was God, and God was with Jesus, and God was Jesus."

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

What is wrong with my understanding, if anything?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#9
And Zone, Greek really isn't that hard! Well, maybe a background in German and French did help me quite a bit!!

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." 2 Tim. 2:15

A good resource for learning Greek in Bill Mounce's "The Basics of Biblical Greek". It comes with an exercise book, lots of exegetical studies, and for $50 you can view the videos on the website and ask questions in the forum
thanks Angela.
i'm determined to do it.
i have a theologian i listen to...he keeps saying how much is "seen" in the Greek that just can't be translated fully.
ARG.....me want!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
2,947
113
#10
I don't know if I am missing something but I have never had a problem with this. Verse 14 tells us the Word is Jesus which means that John 1:1 is telling us:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

What is wrong with my understanding, if anything?
Number 1 is the right answer, according to Greek grammar. Because Jesus does not appear in the text at that point! Logos does, which is Jesus, right??

And yes, verse 1:14 is very important. John was writing to convince his readers that Jesus was God, but not the Father.

Of course, if someone wants to show me where I am wrong, in the Greek, I would be happy to debate the point! LOL
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#11
Number 1 is the right answer, according to Greek grammar. Because Jesus does not appear in the text at that point! Logos does, which is Jesus, right??

And yes, verse 1:14 is very important. John was writing to convince his readers that Jesus was God, but not the Father.

Of course, if someone wants to show me where I am wrong, in the Greek, I would be happy to debate the point! LOL
Thank you for your answer but I have another question which is this, If God is our Heavenly Father, and Jesus is God then leaving aside the 33 years Jesus was on earth, isn't Jesus our Heavenly Father as well? In fact aren't they all one and the same?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#12
I am still staring at the title of the thread ...in English. At first blush it sounded like 'Why Jesus is God...but not the Father'. Gee, I started to think...there goes Elizabeth off the deep end. :)
 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
2,947
113
#14
I am still staring at the title of the thread ...in English. At first blush it sounded like 'Why Jesus is God...but not the Father'. Gee, I started to think...there goes Elizabeth off the deep end. :)
Umm..... Jesus was the Son??? And God!


Says to self - hope I got it right this time. The title was just a last minute add! The grammar is the point! And that John said Jesus, the Word was God, but NOT the Father, BUT the Son!

Last try!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#15
Well umm, stick to the Greek, your original explanation of Jn 1:1 was great.
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#16
In English, the order of the sentence generally determines the use of the noun. The subject usually comes first. However, in Greek, the word order is flexible, and is used for emphasis rather than for strict grammatical functions. For example, if there are two nouns and one has the definite article, it is the subject.

Word order is also employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally, if a word is thrown to the front of a clause or sentence, it is done so for emphasis. When the predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis.

A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. English versions usually say, “and the Word was God.” But in Greek, the word order is reversed.

Καί θεός ήν ό λόγος or (Kai theos en ho logos)
And God was the Word

We know that “the Word” is the subject, because it as the definite article and we translate it accordingly “and the Word was God.”

Two questions, both of theological importance, come to mind
1. Why was θεός (theos or god) thrown forward?
2. Why does it lack the article?

The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definition article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.

John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism

To state this another way, let’s look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

1. καί ό λόγος ήν ό θεός
“and the Word was the God” Sabellianism*
2. καί ό λόγος ήν θεός
“and the Word was a god” Arianism+
3. καί θεός ήν ό ΄λόγος
“and the Word was God” Orthodoxy

From: Mounce William D., Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar

*Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.
The term Sabellianism comes from Sabellius, a theologian and priest from the 3rd century. Modalism differs from Unitarianism by accepting the Christian doctrine that Jesus is fully God.

+ Arianism is the theological teaching attributed to Arius (ca. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of God to the Son of God (Jesus of Nazareth). Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father.
Arianism is defined as those teachings attributed to Arius which are in opposition to mainstream Trinitarian Christological doctrine, as determined by the first two Ecumenical Councils and currently maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, all Reformation-founded Protestant churches (Lutheran, Reformed/Presbyterian, and Anglican), and a large majority of groups founded after the Reformation and calling themselves Protestant (such as Methodist, Baptist, most Pentecostals), with the exception of such groups as Oneness Pentecostals, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Iglesia ni Cristo and Branhamism

So is your church teaching you the truth about the Bible, or has it twisted this essential verse which tells us that Jesus was God, and yet a different person than the Father??
I like very much what you have explain. And now tell us how it is that we see the singular number, nominative case, masculine gender applied to the subject and what this also tells us about the preceding Theos with it's absence of the article?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
2,947
113
#17
Umm...

Logos is a word of the masculine gender? And it is the nominative case because it is the subject. Singular because there is only one logos - and that is Jesus. The Word made flesh!

The absence of the article - I was sure I already said that!

Its lack of a definition article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).
Keep reading, I have seen a lot of mistakes in your Greek KA, but I have refrained from correcting. I will be from now on.

This stands as read:

And the Word was God!
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#18
And the Word (Logos, God) was made flesh.

The flesh was not the Father agreed....., for that split second in all eternity.
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
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#19
Not a necessary discussion for now. :)

But for those who wish to pursue it, let me just point out that you can also back up each need for how the proper exegesis must read by grammar rules checked by other clearly spoken scriptures (not which require more debating translation, but) which actually state what the proper exegesis must say.

Ponder that thought and once grasped, try to do it. It can be done and then even the most prideful scholar can only continue to resist with a red face.
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#20
Umm...

Logos is a word of the masculine gender? And it is the nominative case because it is the subject. Singular because there is only one logos - and that is Jesus. The Word made flesh!

The absence of the article - I was sure I already said that!



Keep reading, I have seen a lot of mistakes in your Greek KA, but I have refrained from correcting. I will be from now on.

This stands as read:

And the Word was God!
Now, if you are what you claim then you know that the article sets case, number and gender.

And if you have seen mistakes I dare you to pounce on them.

There are scholars who trained with bias of tightly held beliefs and they are a disgrace to what a true scholar is.
 
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