John 16:13 Reproves ALL Modern Bibles' Romans 8:26-27 Being About Tongues

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Dec 21, 2012
2,901
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#1
Pick a Bible version... any Bible version and read John 16:13 at this link at Bible Gateway of 5 Bible versions to read.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 16:13&version=KJV;NIV;NASB;ESV;RSV

The scripture says the Holy Spirit cannot speak on His own authority nor on His own initiative, or on His own accord, but speaks what He hears; meaning as the NIV has it, speaks only what He hears. That means He does not have His own words to speak for He can only speak what He hears.

Now let that sink down into your ears, because the Holy Spirit CANNOT give His intercessions to the Father.

That is where the King James Bible of Romans 8:26-27 comes in.

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

#1. The word itself is used insead of Himself indicates that the Holy Spirit is NOT making His intercessions by Himself even though He has them.

#2. What kind of intercessions are those? The silent kind as in He does not utter them as "with groanings which cannot be uttered"... that means the groanings are not heard because they are not uttered. Period.

So then the reader is left with the question of how does the Holy Spirit serve as a means for His unspeakable intercessions to be known to the Father? That is what verse 27 is for because Another gives the Spirit's intercessions to the Father for the Holy Spirit.... and it is done according to the will of God of there being only one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Let's take the verse in pieces so you can follow the Truth in His words.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts....

So Who searches the heart?

Hebrews 4:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.[SUP]14 [/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

So Who is the Word of God? Jesus Christ, as specified as the Son of God.

Whom are we naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with Whom we have to do? Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Got that? Verse 27 is talking about Jesus Christ, the Son of God now. That is the "he" spoken of in that verse.

So Jesus Christ, the Son of God that searches our hearts IS THE ONE that knows the mind of the Spirit.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Now let's look at the ending of that verse 27.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Why is that important? That truth confirms that verse is about Jesus Christ, the Son of God as other parts of scripture confirms that truth.

1 Timothy 2:[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Hebrews 7:[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Only Jesus Christ, the Son of God is at that throne of grace to give our intercessions, the Spirit's unspeakable intercessions, and the Son's own intercessions to the Father so that when the Father says "Yes," the Son answers the prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers.

That is why this is in according to the will of God, because....

#1. Jesus Christ is the only way any one can come to God the Father by in prayer; not by the Holy Spirit.

John 14:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

#2. Only the Son answers the prayers, because the Father is glorified only in the Son for answering prayers.

John 14:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.[SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

So that means any one praying to the Holy Ghost to come and fall on them to bring them tongues which comes with no interpretation; that was NOT the Holy Ghost answering that prayer.

It is in according to the will of God that only Jesus gives ALL intercessions to the Father so that when prayers are answered, the Father is glorified in the Son for saying "Yes" to the Son to permit the Son to answer that intercession.

So the Holy Spirit does not tell the Father what we really MEANT to say. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, does that for Him.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#2
Read any bible verse on John 16:13 ok...

John 16:13
13 But when the Spirit of Truth has come, She will lead you in all Truth, for She will not speak from the mind of the nefesh: but all that She hears--that She will speak, and She will make known to you future things.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
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#3
I see someone taking something overboard, but I don't see the purpose for the point.
 
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#4
Read any bible verse on John 16:13 ok...

John 16:13
13 But when the Spirit of Truth has come, She will lead you in all Truth, for She will not speak from the mind of the nefesh: but all that She hears--that She will speak, and She will make known to you future things.
I reckon that is a new Bible version and so I stand unable to reprove by the word since the point would be lost for using John 16:13 as a reproof towards how all modern Bibles has Romans 8:26-27 to mean that the Holy Spirit can use tongues for a prayer language since every one will look for any inch they can have for using tongues as a prayer language.

And that is why people are faint and dying of thirst for the word of the Lord because not all Bibles are saying the same thing.

All the more reasons why people will resist relying only on the KJV for the meat of His words.

Amos 8:[SUP]11 [/SUP]Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
 
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Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#5
I see someone taking something overboard, but I don't see the purpose for the point.
The Holy Spirit cannot use tongues as a prayer language if He can only speak what He hears.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,951
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#6
There is nothing like going to the error-filled KJV to prove a point of theology. Besides, it is really not KJV versus modern versions.

Good theology needs to go back to the original languages. Greek or Hebrew, or occasionally Aramaic. So if you want to compare the Greek in these verses, I will let you know what they say.

I'm also not really getting why you are linking John 16:13 with Romans 8:26-27. You do know they were written in different contexts, right? To different people, written by different people. Of course, there is no conflict, because God inspired these verses. But ultimately, you need to look at the context of these verses in the chapter. I can't even see what you are saying about Romans 8:26-27 somehow "proving" John 16:13.

Much confusion here, I think.

(By the way, I don't speak in tongues, but neither do I want to get into a fight over it!)
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,457
4,106
113
#7
Pick a Bible version... any Bible version and read John 16:13 at this link at Bible Gateway of 5 Bible versions to read.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 16:13&version=KJV;NIV;NASB;ESV;RSV

The scripture says the Holy Spirit cannot speak on His own authority nor on His own initiative, or on His own accord, but speaks what He hears; meaning as the NIV has it, speaks only what He hears. That means He does not have His own words to speak for He can only speak what He hears.

Now let that sink down into your ears, because the Holy Spirit CANNOT give His intercessions to the Father.

That is where the King James Bible of Romans 8:26-27 comes in.

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

#1. The word itself is used insead of Himself indicates that the Holy Spirit is NOT making His intercessions by Himself even though He has them.

#2. What kind of intercessions are those? The silent kind as in He does not utter them as "with groanings which cannot be uttered"... that means the groanings are not heard because they are not uttered. Period.

So then the reader is left with the question of how does the Holy Spirit serve as a means for His unspeakable intercessions to be known to the Father? That is what verse 27 is for because Another gives the Spirit's intercessions to the Father for the Holy Spirit.... and it is done according to the will of God of there being only one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Let's take the verse in pieces so you can follow the Truth in His words.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts....

So Who searches the heart?

Hebrews 4:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.[SUP]14 [/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

So Who is the Word of God? Jesus Christ, as specified as the Son of God.

Whom are we naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with Whom we have to do? Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Got that? Verse 27 is talking about Jesus Christ, the Son of God now. That is the "he" spoken of in that verse.

So Jesus Christ, the Son of God that searches our hearts IS THE ONE that knows the mind of the Spirit.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Now let's look at the ending of that verse 27.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Why is that important? That truth confirms that verse is about Jesus Christ, the Son of God as other parts of scripture confirms that truth.

1 Timothy 2:[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Hebrews 7:[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Only Jesus Christ, the Son of God is at that throne of grace to give our intercessions, the Spirit's unspeakable intercessions, and the Son's own intercessions to the Father so that when the Father says "Yes," the Son answers the prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers.

That is why this is in according to the will of God, because....

#1. Jesus Christ is the only way any one can come to God the Father by in prayer; not by the Holy Spirit.

John 14:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

#2. Only the Son answers the prayers, because the Father is glorified only in the Son for answering prayers.

John 14:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.[SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

So that means any one praying to the Holy Ghost to come and fall on them to bring them tongues which comes with no interpretation; that was NOT the Holy Ghost answering that prayer.

It is in according to the will of God that only Jesus gives ALL intercessions to the Father so that when prayers are answered, the Father is glorified in the Son for saying "Yes" to the Son to permit the Son to answer that intercession.

So the Holy Spirit does not tell the Father what we really MEANT to say. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, does that for Him.
out of context and Allegorizing of scriptures
 
P

popeye

Guest
#8
So that means any one praying to the Holy Ghost to come and fall on them to bring them tongues which comes with no interpretation; that was NOT the Holy Ghost answering that prayer.

It is in according to the will of God that only Jesus gives ALL intercessions to the Father so that when prayers are answered, the Father is glorified in the Son for saying "Yes" to the Son to permit the Son to answer that intercession.

So the Holy Spirit does not tell the Father what we really MEANT to say. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, does that for Him.
Your looking for loopholes to bolster a doctrine.

I know when I recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit,It was through the laying on of hands of 2 women in the church after the sunday service on mother's day 1977.

They just prayed and asked God. That's all. When The Holy Spirit came,it was like massive electricity and the tongues thingy just poured out from my belly. It was awesome.

That was my experience and is confirmed several places in the word of God.

Luke 11;11 [FONT=&quot]If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Not sure if that fits your template. Not even sure what point you are trying to make.[/FONT]
 
P

popeye

Guest
#9
The Holy Spirit cannot use tongues as a prayer language if He can only speak what He hears.
no doubt the Holy Spirit gets a chuckle out of these non issue declarations.

I for one am glad he does not need your permission.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,093
1,756
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#10
There are some tenuous arguments there.

Jesus also taught his disciples about the Father answering prayers in His name.

I agree that Romans 8:26 is not about speaking in tongues. But the type of prayer those verses mention are not the only types of prayers the Spirit is involved in. The Spirit is involved in all types of prayers and supplications.

Ephesians 6:18
[SUP]18 [/SUP][FONT=&quot]praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—[/FONT]
(NKJV)

And individuals can pray in tongues through a gift of the Spirit as we see in I Corinthians 14.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#11
I reckon that is a new Bible version and so I stand unable to reprove by the word since the point would be lost for using John 16:13 as a reproof towards how all modern Bibles has Romans 8:26-27 to mean that the Holy Spirit can use tongues for a prayer language since every one will look for any inch they can have for using tongues as a prayer language.

And that is why people are faint and dying of thirst for the word of the Lord because not all Bibles are saying the same thing.

All the more reasons why people will resist relying only on the KJV for the meat of His words.

Amos 8:[SUP]11 [/SUP]Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Well the version I posted is quite old from the early 1800's it's called the Hebraic Roots Version,

Source: Hebrew Masoretic Text, Hebrew and Aramaic New Testament sources.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#12
Romans 8

26 Thus also, the Spirit aids our infirmity, for we do not know what is right to pray for. But the Spirit prays on our behalf with groans that are not describable.
27 And He who searches the hearts, knows what is the thinking of the Spirit that prays on behalf of the Set-Apart-Ones, according to the will of Eloah.
28 But we know that those who love Eloah, He aids in everything for good--those whom He before determined to be called.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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#13
Whenever I see people saying that the KJ "version" bible is the "only true bible" - I immediately know there is something wrong. They are right in some areas ( just like the rest of us for we only know in part ) but when they say "It is only found in the KJ "version" - that's where the craziness comes in.

Unless the Holy Spirit illuminates the scriptures to us - we end up with our own humanistic interpretations which we got from our church upbringing or from our own personal beliefs from our own natural thinking.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#14
Whenever I see people saying that the KJ "version" bible is the "only true bible" - I immediately know there is something wrong. They are right in some areas ( just like the rest of us for we only know in part ) but when they say "It is only found in the KJ "version" - that's where the craziness comes in.

Unless the Holy Spirit illuminates the scriptures to us - we end up with our own humanistic interpretations which we got from our church upbringing or from our own personal beliefs from our own natural thinking.
I completely agree G7, i think it very helpful to look at as much text as one can, starting as far back as one can find and move forward to the present and compare verses, chapters etc.. To see the languages used in a certain time frame. This helps IMO to come to a more complete understanding of scripture..
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#15
I do like some things in KJV English that translate things better than others, though my preference would be the KJV concord version or the KJV Cambridge version, I'm not much of a fan of the KJV Thomas Neslon version.
 
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Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,481
3,518
113
#16
Read any bible verse on John 16:13 ok...

John 16:13
13 But when the Spirit of Truth has come, She will lead you in all Truth, for She will not speak from the mind of the nefesh: but all that She hears--that She will speak, and She will make known to you future things.
What Per-version is that.. ?????
 
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
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#18
There is nothing like going to the error-filled KJV to prove a point of theology. Besides, it is really not KJV versus modern versions.

Good theology needs to go back to the original languages. Greek or Hebrew, or occasionally Aramaic. So if you want to compare the Greek in these verses, I will let you know what they say.

I'm also not really getting why you are linking John 16:13 with Romans 8:26-27. You do know they were written in different contexts, right? To different people, written by different people. Of course, there is no conflict, because God inspired these verses. But ultimately, you need to look at the context of these verses in the chapter. I can't even see what you are saying about Romans 8:26-27 somehow "proving" John 16:13.

Much confusion here, I think.

(By the way, I don't speak in tongues, but neither do I want to get into a fight over it!)
If you are leaning on Him to read John 16:13, there would be no confusion. ALL modern Bibles shares this truth except the one that says the Holy Spirit is a She.

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. NASB

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ESV

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. RSV

So....

How can the Holy Spirit utter or speak His Intercessions when He cannot do that as John 16:13 says?

That means Romans 8:26-27 in all modern Bibles has been translated WRONG because it does not line up with the truth in His words in John 16:13.

That is why the KJV has it right BUT because many have been "brainwashed" to read modern Bibles version of Romans 8:26-27 into the KJV, they clearly cannot read what is plainly written as not the same message as the modern Bibles has it in Romans 8:26-27.

The KJV Romans 8:26-27 lines up with John 16:13 because alaletos in Greek means unspeakable and unutterable as "with groanings which cannot be uttered" means no sound at all and verse 27's " he " is about Jesus Christ Who searches our hearts ( Hebrews 4:12-15 ) is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit as to HOW the unspeakable intercessions of the Spirit's are made known by the Father which is in according to the will of God of there being only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

That means the Holy Spirit cannot give His intercessions Himself to the Father. Only the Son can give the Spirit's unspeakable intercessions for Him to the Father.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,093
1,756
113
#19
Enow wrote,

How can the Holy Spirit utter or speak His Intercessions when He cannot do that as John 16:13 says?
You are assuming that Christ says nothing regarding prayer, which doesn't fit with your own interpretation of Romans 8.

Do you believe Jesus prays?