John 6:37

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PS

PS

Senior Member
#101
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#101
Elin said:
You fail to understand that God uses means to call those whose destiny he has already set/fixed to be salvation, the primary one being the preaching of the gospel.
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It is because the primary means of bringing people to the Lord is through the Gospel that predestination before those people are born is wrong. It is heretical to say that God has favourites.

Romans 2:5 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgement will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honour and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favouritism.

Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes."

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favouritism"

Eph_6:9 Masters, treat your slaves the same way. Do not threaten them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and there is no favouritism with him.

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favouritism.


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crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#102
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#102
PS said:
It is because the primary means of bringing people to the Lord is through the Gospel that predestination before those people are born is wrong. It is heretical to say that God has favourites.

Romans 2:5 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgement will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honour and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favouritism.

Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes."

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favouritism"

Eph_6:9 Masters, treat your slaves the same way. Do not threaten them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and there is no favouritism with him.

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favouritism.


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Haven't I read in various places "Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated?" Even if the meaning is varying degree of love it's still preferental. Or are you going to say God found goodness in Jacob?
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#103
Jan 11, 2013
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695
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#103
crossnote said:
Haven't I read in various places "Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated?" Even if the meaning is varying degree of love it's still preferental. Or are you going to say God found goodness in Jacob?
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I'm going to quote Isaiah 54:1 which is quoted in Galatians 4:27.

The barren lady who is told to rejoice is Sarah who is the wife of Abraham as was Hagar from whose son Ishmael are descended the Muslim Arabs. Sarah is a type of the Christian Church and Hagar is a type of those who are under spiritual bondage like Jews and Muslims who know not the saving grace of Jesus Christ represented by the freewoman Sarah and her freeborn child Isaac who represent the heavenly Jerusalem which is the church of Christ.

Isaiah 54:1 is the prophet speaking of the Babylonian bondage followed by the glorious deliverance in Christ. Chapter 53 is all concerning Christ, and chapter 54 speaks of the great deliverance.

Ishmael the son of Hagar persecuted Isaac. (See Genesis 21:9) just as the Jews persecuted God's spiritual children who are the heirs of the promise.

The allegory continues : - When it was impossible for the two families to get along in peace, Abraham cast out Hagar the bondwoman and her son Ishmael.

So, too, the Jews, the children of the old covenant have lost the divine favour, and others whether they are Jews or Gentiles who have accepted Jesus Christ have become the heirs (Israel). That isn't to say though that the Jews and others cannot return to their spiritual home where they belong under Abraham and Sarah from whom are descended Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Judah and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

It also explains Romans 9:13 "Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Today we know the land of Edom as Jordan and approximately 92% of the population is Muslim, primarily of the Sunni branch of Islam. (Wiki)

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E

Elin

Banned
#104
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#104
PS said:
It is because the primary means of bringing people to the Lord is through the Gospel that predestination before those people are born is wrong. It is heretical to say that God has favourites.
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Covered here.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#105
Jan 11, 2013
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#105
Elin said:
Covered here.
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It isn't covered until you accept that a personal relationship with God is a personal decision by you.

God is waiting, seeking, pleading and drawing. All people need to do is draw near.

Heb_4:16 Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need.

Heb_7:25 Wherefore also he is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb_10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our body washed with pure water:
 
E

Elin

Banned
#106
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#106
PS said:
It isn't covered until you accept that a personal relationship with God is a personal decision by you.

God is waiting, seeking, pleading and drawing. All people need to do is draw near.

Heb_4:16 Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need.

Heb_7:25 Wherefore also he is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb_10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our body washed with pure water:
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Likewise covered here.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#107
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#107
Elin said:
Likewise covered here.
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Isn't it the reformed view that people are predestined from the foundation of the earth and if you are one of the elect you don't need to do anything?
 
E

Elin

Banned
#108
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#108
PS said:
Isn't it the reformed view that people are predestined from the foundation of the earth and if you are one of the elect you don't need to do anything?
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Do you mean you don't do anything to cause God's election?

Eph 2:8-9 states that.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

grace = free and unmerited favor, I did absolutely nothing to merit God's favor of salvation.

works = any effort to merit God's favor.

free gift = a gift is not free if I earn it in any way, because I am owed what I earn.

boast = true claim that I did something to cause God to give me salvation, which the unsaved failed to do.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#109
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#109
Elin said:
Do you mean you don't do anything to cause God's election?

Eph 2:8-9 states that.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

grace = free and unmerited favor, I did absolutely nothing to merit God's favor of salvation.

works = any effort to merit God's favor.

free gift = a gift is not free if I earn it in any way, because I am owed what I earn.

boast = true claim that I did something to cause God to give me salvation, which the unsaved failed to do.
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I think the Reformed Bible has about six verses in it. Nobody boasts because we have nothing to boast about. A free gift has to be accepted by you. There is nothing to boast about.

I wrote more but have deleted it. I will pray for you.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#110
#110
PS you had to have learned by now that the most skilled debater wins.
right or wrong cant matter. not in debate. Nope its like boxing.
 
E

Elin

Banned
#111
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#111
PS said:
I think the Reformed Bible has about six verses in it. Nobody boasts because we have nothing to boast about. A free gift has to be accepted by you. There is nothing to boast about.
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I can boast that I accepted it and they did not.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#112
#112
Abiding said:
PS you had to have learned by now that the most skilled debater wins.
right or wrong cant matter. not in debate. Nope its like boxing.
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That's not entirely true, especially in a format as an online forum.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#113
#113
PS said:
I think the Reformed Bible has about six verses in it. Nobody boasts because we have nothing to boast about. A free gift has to be accepted by you. There is nothing to boast about.

I wrote more but have deleted it. I will pray for you.
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I made use of my own free will to get saved, and they did not. Shouldn't I be proud of my accomplishments?
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#114
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#114
jimmydiggs said:
I made use of my own free will to get saved, and they did not. Shouldn't I be proud of my accomplishments?
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It is the doctor who heals and we place our faith in the Great Physician and follow His instructions.

They do not, neither do they present themselves to the Physician.

I fear for their salvation. We have to go to the doctor, they admit they are being drawn but they don't step through the surgery door or shake the physician by the hand or take his prescription.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#115
#115
jimmydiggs said:
I made use of my own free will to get saved, and they did not. Shouldn't I be proud of my accomplishments?
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weak arguement
"When you have done all that is commanded of you, say, 'we are unworthy slaves and we have done only what was our duty'"(Lke 17:1-10)
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#116
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#116
Elin said:
I can boast that I accepted it and they did not.
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Matthew 13 44-50

The Hidden Treasure
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

The Pearl of Greatest Price
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchantman, seeking goodly pearls: who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

The Net
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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The man FOUND the treasure and rejoiced. He did not boast.

The merchant SOUGHT the pearl of greatest price. He gave everything up for the pearl of greatest price. He took possession of it. He did not boast.

God casts the net into the sea and draws it in. Those He does not know, those who haven't come to Him or accepted Him, these are the unjust, they are cast into the fiery furnace and there shall be a wailing and gnashing of teeth. There will be no boasting but that is what you want and that is where you belong.
 
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Elin

Banned
#117
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#117
PS said:
Matthew 13 44-50

The Hidden Treasure
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

The Pearl of Greatest Price
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchantman, seeking goodly pearls: who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

The Net
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

0000000000000000
​

The man FOUND the treasure and rejoiced. He did not boast.

The merchant SOUGHT the pearl of greatest price. He gave everything up for the pearl of greatest price. He took possession of it. He did not boast.
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Relevance?

What is your point here?

Are you saying that Eph 2:8-9 is not true:
"you have been saved through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast"?
 
E

Elin

Banned
#118
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#118
Abiding said:
weak arguement
"When you have done all that is commanded of you, say, 'we are unworthy slaves and we have done only what was our duty'"(Lke 17:1-10)
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So could he boast that he did his duty and another did not?
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#119
#119
crossnote said:
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(John 6:37)KJV

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
(Joh 6:37)ESV


Looking at this verse I can only conclude that since not everyone is saved (universalism) then only those that the Father gives the Son will come to the Son.
The strange notion of God passively looking down a corridor of time and seeing who will choose His Son and then choosing him on that basis flies against the clear and natural reading of John 6:37.

John 6:37 is supported by other verses including this similar verse...
And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (Joh 6:65)
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God KNOWS who will 'give,' LOL, He is God, BUT, and, it's a big 'but,,' ALL are 'given..'

”...That none should perish.”
 
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