Jude has the best title for hyper grace!

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Feb 11, 2016
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#21
Ben, I couldnt agree or disagree with what I dont understand concerning what you are talking about, so it might be best to just leave off of the discussion.

I was just stating from an observers point of view that I dont believe some of the folks who have a problem have one with Gods grace just anothers kind of grace.

And with that I will leave off of the discussion itself.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#22
I agree Ben absolutely and completely. I have had many conversations with people where I can see this is the absolute truth.

Although, it is only that they slander grace that sometimes causes me to enter the realm of trying to reason with them.

Having said that no amount of reasoning will help if God has not done the work on the heart first. So your post has underscored and reminded me the importance of prayer for that person whenever we set out to reason with them.



No, the pride is that of the people unable to humble themselves to receive God's grace. Self-righteous mindset, those who wish to add upon Christ's sufficient sacrifice. Of pain, because people get into doctrines because of hurt. They lash out at the body of Christ because hurt people hurt people.

They have come to their doctrines not based upon intellectual capacity but because of their heart. For some, acceptance is something worked for but God loves us by grace. it is unmerited. Yet, they grew up with this mentality of earning that love and of gifts, and so to them a doctrine that excludes their work is heresy. Their doctrine and mindset is sourced in pain and hurt. Truly, they need compassion more so than a debate on truth. Better yet, both but in meekness.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#23
I mean really, consider it people. Think of the fiery arrows and how we with a revelation of God's grace can dismiss that silliness because granted by God we understand there is no condemnation in Christ, Jesus. Yet, what of those without this defense? Can you imagine the guilt and burden that is upon their heart? How feeble and helpless they are?

VVe need compassion for those with legalistic tendencies, and not animosity. The Lord revealed this to a family member and I in conversation because we were jesting on pride. "Grace? Forget that!", said sarcastically. The Lord revealed it goes much deeper than pride and is sourced in pain. He revealed to us a deer lost in the woods at night, unable to defend itself in a fog. Compassion and prayer (for them) was the answer.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#24
Being in a thread where Mr Prince Prince name comes in (yet once again) does not mean I am watching a vid of his, thats somewhat retarded to think.

So you're 50 and still calling names like someone in grade school? That term is unacceptable and you need to grow up. I usually give God4me a pass as he is obviously blinded to the truth and while his posts are always hate filled they don't use disparaging language like yours does. I wont report you because that too is a childish way to accomplish anything but really you should be ashamed.
 
Feb 11, 2016
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#25
So you're 50 and still calling names like someone in grade school? That term is unacceptable and you need to grow up. I usually give God4me a pass as he is obviously blinded to the truth and while his posts are always hate filled they don't use disparaging language like yours does. I wont report you because that too is a childish way to accomplish anything but really you should be ashamed.
I am back on this comment my comment that something is either crazy to think or nutty to think or retarded to think is not a name called at the person but at the thinking, you are 47 and cant tell the difference?

What are YOU then?
 
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UnderGrace

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#26
While agree much comes from people's pain and wounds, if you listen to the video by Joseph Prince, I agree with him in that some people go the way of Cain because that is part of our sin nature, apart from any pain experienced in their lives. We can be very compassionate towards them but it can be the sin nature, that they refuse to acknowledge and let get in the way.

Just some additional thoughts.


I mean really, consider it people. Think of the fiery arrows and how we with a revelation of God's grace can dismiss that silliness because granted by God we understand there is no condemnation in Christ, Jesus. Yet, what of those without this defense? Can you imagine the guilt and burden that is upon their heart? How feeble and helpless they are?

VVe need compassion for those with legalistic tendencies, and not animosity. The Lord revealed this to a family member and I in conversation because we were jesting on pride. "Grace? Forget that!", said sarcastically. The Lord revealed it goes much deeper than pride and is sourced in pain. He revealed to us a deer lost in the woods at night, unable to defend itself in a fog. Compassion and prayer (for them) was the answer.
 
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FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#27
I am back on this comment my comment that something is either crazy to think or nutty to think or retarded to think is not a name called at the person but at the thinking, you are 47 and cant tell the difference?

What are YOU then?
Ask yourself, if someone with special needs was here looking to better know God and saw your statement what would they feel? How does using ugly language glorify God in any way? I understand about pride not letting you accept correction but come on, do you really think using such words makes this a better place?
 
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UnderGrace

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#28
I agree as a teacher who works with students who have special needs the "r" word really sends me.....

Ask yourself, if someone with special needs was here looking to better know God and saw your statement what would they feel? How does using ugly language glorify God in any way? I understand about pride not letting you accept correction but come on, do you really think using such words makes this a better place?
 
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SteelToedKodiak

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#29
Ah man, this is exactly what the starfish from Canada wanted...
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#30
Ah man, this is exactly what the starfish from Canada wanted...
Personally I don't think the "starfish" from Canada wanted anything as you suggested...it seems people can come into a thread to derail it with subtle attacks on others...that is what is really happening here and it is unfortunate.

Sometimes we just need to agree to disagree on some areas and stop this subtle sniper attack with drive by shootings at people.

Jude actually talks about this too to keep this thread in context. Jude 1:18-19

 
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SteelToedKodiak

Guest
#31
Its expected, I am not interested in the back and forths so much, just touching upon what I observed as far as the grace of God verses the grace of Prince might go (in respects to the issue).

I actually should have ignored the response, so I am at fault in responding to her provocation.
I believe in the hood they would call that an attempted "drive by shooting".....motives for doing things are subtle little creatures in all of us.
Personally I don't think the "starfish" from Canada wanted anything as you suggested...it seems people can come into a thread to derail it with subtle attacks on others...that is what is really happening here and it is unfortunate.

Sometimes we just need to agree to disagree on some areas and stop this subtle sniper attack with drive by shootings at people.

Jude actually talks about this too to keep this thread in context. Jude 1:18-19

It's probably just the summer heat. Fall can't get here soon enough. Good post grace!
 
Feb 11, 2016
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#32
Ask yourself, if someone with special needs was here looking to better know God and saw your statement what would they feel? How does using ugly language glorify God in any way? I understand about pride not letting you accept correction but come on, do you really think using such words makes this a better place?
Just a WORD means this




You stated I called A PERSON that word which means the same as stupid when I did not

I was speaking to the stupid thing said as plain as day. You adress the argument not the person as it was stupid (ie retarded) to tie the things together like that.

I didnt say what I might believe she might be (mentally) but rather I said what I believed her words were on that point.

Then you start on me about my age, when it come to calling someone such a name (when I did not)

Means stupid, people SAY stupid things, dumb things, nonsensical things, crazy things and they can be all of that in themselves but you are speaking to what is spoken (the argument) and not the person (themselves).

I dont know what God would think, didnt ask him
Isaiah 29:21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

Now as these threads typically go, it will deteriorate into the worst of the worse (as usual) as this sort of grace seems to manifest itself in provoking first, false accusations and basically the same thing HeRoseFromTheDead pretty much understood and posted on several times, so with that I am done with any of these kinds of grace threads there is never an ounce of it in them anyway.


 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#33
Paul says that a true grace teacher will always result in the foolish saying, 'he teaches shall we continue in sin that grace may abound'? Rom 6.2
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#35
I dont believe Gods grace was anyones issue it was Joseph Prince's kind.

I dont know the man I just see his vids spammed throughout the forum but I dont watch them (an many others besides) so I cant really say anything.
This post above is the start of this contention. and this was my response below to her about this. This kind of stuff needs to stop. This is what starts contention in threads - it is not grace as suggested.

There is no crying "wolf" here about a false accusation. This is all I am going to say about this behavior but it is plain where this all started.

My response to her post:


Well then if you have never heard what is being spoken - then you are judging things completely out of ignorance or from some other motive. Not a good thing to be doing but you are free to believe whatever you want.

You say " I really can't say anything" but yet you to come in and highlight a person's videos "spammed throughout the forum" ...got it!. We know your real reason for coming in now. Thank you.

Mark 4:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22[/SUP] "For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light.
 
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Jan 15, 2011
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#36
Interesting...
Jude is a great book as a warning to the church about false teachers. I believe the premise was the fact that gnosticism was entering the church and Jude was writing a letter to those in the church to contend for the faith against these gnostic practices. Granted this idea of "gnosticism" entering the church can also be applied to the myriad of false teachings and doctrines and gospels that would enter the church in the future.

This is most evidently seen with the fact that Jude said the following:

Jude 1:3-4 NKJV
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude warns those who are born again to contend for the faith, knowing that false teachers would come in to try to sway them from the narrow road walk in Christ Jesus. Jude warns the church to stand against these false teachings. Arguably, the issue of hyper grace would fit into these teachings as it can turn the grace of God into lewdness. He continues to go on saying that apostates (or those that turn away from the faith) forget that the Lord does judge mankind as seen with Egypt, the angels that did not keep their proper domain (most likely a Genesis 6 reference), and Sodom and Gomorrah (and the neighboring cities). So as a result, with their false teachings, they are spots in our love feasts IN the church. As clouds without water (promising the water of the word, but giving emptiness instead), late autumn trees without fruit who are twice dead and uprooted, and likened to a raging sea whose foam shows their shame. More importantly, they are reserved for the blackness of darkness forever (hell).

With their false doctrine, they grumble, complain, and walk according to their own lusts. A key point to consider here, is that they speak great swelling words to flatter people to gain advantage. The words they speak will sound good, feel good, and seem to be truth, but in reality the words they speak are not the words that give life by Christ Jesus, but just words for their own monetary gain. We can liken their words to words that have a hint of truth in order to sound good, but holds back the whole counsel of God. A partial truth is not a full truth. The most dangerous weapon against the Body of Christ would be a partial truth and partial gospel. Outright heresy is easy to spot, but the more dangerous heresy would be truth with even a bit of error sprinkled in. Or, error with a little truth sprinkled in, but this is easier to spot. These false doctrines and gospels are that leaven that leavens the whole lump. A little corruption grows to be full blown apostasy.

This is why Jude exhorts the Church, born again believers:

Jude 1:20-23 NKJV
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

To the church Jude says for us to keep ourselves in the Love of God and look for the mercy of Jesus unto eternal life. Is it not love to give truth? Is it not love to stand in truth amid the error of the doctrines of the times? It is thus love also to understand the false doctrines that pervade in the professing church and to make a stand for the truth. To allow a brother to live in even a little bit of error is not love. So thus we need to keep ourselves in the Love of God so as to look for the mercy of our Lord Christ unto eternal life.

Hyper-grace/OSAS? Hyper-grace is spoken of in effect when Jude speaks about turning the grace of God into lewdness. It's not speaking bout those who say we need to be obedient unto the word of God and what the Spirit of God speaks to us. It speaks of a doctrine that turns God's grace into something that it was never meant to be, in this case by saying that once you are born again, no matter what you do, you cannot fall away from God. Yes I know the hyper-grace crowd will say that what they teach is not a license for licentiousness. However, the doctrine of OSAS/Hyper-grace when you boil it down to the basic essence does not deny this. Instead people will say, "Oh they were never born again to begin with," but then it starts a heart judgment that we are called never to make.

Obedience is not works. Bearing fruit is not works. Keeping ourselves in the Love of God is not works. However, it is something we are asked to do. Thus it is a reasonable service unto the Lord and not works. Let us not malign the clear exhortations that are given to us by God and let us keep ourselves for our Bridegroom without spot or blemish. Does this mean we have to be perfect? Of course not. He wants us to have a heart purposed for Him, and to be found doing what He wants us to be doing upon His return for His blood bought remnant bride. Jesus is our High King and Priest. He knows we cannot walk 100% perfectly because of our flesh which is contrary to God. This is why the end result of our race of faith or Sanctification Process is Glorification, where we receive our glorified spiritual bodies.

There was only one man who could walk in 100% perfection and that was Christ Jesus. He knows we will stumble from time to time. He knows we will sin. But by confessing and repenting to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ when we sin, He who is our Mediator and Advocate (for those who are born again), is good to forgive us our sins. This is only available for those who are born again. What an amazing gift of grace that God has given us in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#37
The word for "turn" in Jude 1:4 means to "replace" or "in place of" or " to transpose"...people are replacing the grace of God for something else.

It does not mean that people are "turning" grace into lewdness as the KJV seems to look like it is saying.

It has nothing to do with so-called hyper-grace/OSAS believers using grace as a license to sin which is constantly being accused of. Paul was slanderously accused of the very same thing when he taught grace.

Here are some scriptures where the exact same Greek word is used to see how it is used. You can readily see that the word means to transpose or to exchange from one place to another.

Acts 7:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "From there they were removed to Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.

Galatians 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Hebrews 11:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Here is what the Greek word means:

"To transpose, put in another place and hence to transport, transfer"

Complete Word Study Dictionary, The - The Complete Word Study Dictionary – New Testament
.
 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#38
Interesting...
Jude is a great book as a warning to the church about false teachers. I believe the premise was the fact that gnosticism was entering the church and Jude was writing a letter to those in the church to contend for the faith against these gnostic practices. Granted this idea of "gnosticism" entering the church can also be applied to the myriad of false teachings and doctrines and gospels that would enter the church in the future.

This is most evidently seen with the fact that Jude said the following:

Jude 1:3-4 NKJV
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Thus these were from the start marked out for condemnation, who perverted the teaching..

Jude warns those who are born again to contend for the faith, knowing that false teachers would come in to try to sway them from the narrow road walk in Christ Jesus. Jude warns the church to stand against these false teachings.
Yes against those who were perverting the Gospel because they did not know the true Gospel.

Arguably, the issue of hyper grace would fit into these teachings as it can turn the grace of God into lewdness.
But that is false teaching. Many men engage in false teaching because they have never understood the true,

H
e continues to go on saying that apostates (or those that turn away from the faith)
you are giving this your own meaning. It does not say that they are apostates in your sense of the word. It says they deny Jesus Christ our Lord from the start.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#39
Arguably, the issue of hyper grace would fit into these teachings as it can turn the grace of God into lewdness.
I am not understanding this statement, grace comes from God, how can God's grace/love be turned into lewdness? Are you saying we can take something good from God and make it evil?

Scripture tells us that Mary was full of grace, could that grace she possessed be turned to lewdness. One would never even think such a thing because we know the grace she possessed was from God and it could not be turned into anything but what it is!! Grace

Grace 777 has explained above that the word turn makes no sense. I hope you will reconsider this statement.
 
Jan 15, 2011
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#40
Thus these were from the start marked out for condemnation, who perverted the teaching..



Yes against those who were perverting the Gospel because they did not know the true Gospel.



But that is false teaching. Many men engage in false teaching because they have never understood the true,

H

you are giving this your own meaning. It does not say that they are apostates in your sense of the word. It says they deny Jesus Christ our Lord from the start.

Hard to see with the formatting...
Yes these men crept into the church who were marked out for condemnation.
The point was, Jude was warning the Church/Body of Christ/Born again believers to contend against these individuals who would bring in destructive heresies. If we do not contend against it, these teachings can be introduced and incorporated into the beliefs of born again Christians. Thus, it was prophesied that there will be every wind of doctrine in the end times church. So God exhorts us to stand in the truth (bear our cross), against these false teachings and heresies.

Apostasy means to depart from, turn away or revolt.