KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE VS. MODERN ENGLISH BIBLES

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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OK, if you just leave out the word "perfect", you would be in agreement with the rest of us. We also believe that the message can be carried with many different words.

But then some KJVO guy (I do not say its you) comes and says "one word is left out = its an evil corruption".
What's the "message" behind this portion of Scripture:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Are words important to God?
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,657
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What's the "message" behind this portion of Scripture:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Are words important to God?
At least for John's Revelation, they appear to be.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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What's the "message" behind this portion of Scripture:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Are words important to God?
You know what is interesting, Revelation is the book that Erasmus did not have a good manuscript to translate from.

So he translated it to Greek from Latin and created Greek text that does not exist in any Greek manuscript.

Now what? Is Erasmus in hell because of it?
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,265
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What's the "message" behind this portion of Scripture:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Are words important to God?
I guess so since all Holy Bibles agree and have the same teachings.

Revelation 22:18-19

NIV
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this book.


NKJV
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


ESV
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

NASB
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
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No no, don't put me in that group lol. I said the Lord SHOWED me through studying SEVERAL translations that the KJV was inerrant. I never said God told me anything.

Edit: Forgot to add shame on you for not reading what I wrote.
I can dig it. The KJV is the best in in my opinion, I have no trouble understanding the words. I run across trow, I google it. I don't have to figure out if genetive neutered homosexual or anything like that. Most times I don't even use a dictionary because I can figure out it's meaning through context.

The KJV is not for all I guess, but it is for me. :)
My apologies! I have obviously been hanging out on “those” threads too much. Because when they say “The Lord showed me,” what they mean is that they had a divine revelation, contrary to Scripture, but the “rhema” word trumps the written word.

Well, at least we agree that anything that contradicts the written word is totally bogus.

(Seriously, someone actually wrote the rhema (even wrote it in Greek) was more important than the Bible. I wish I had taken them to task, but by then I was so exhausted from exegeting each and every plain and obvious error, that I just skipped over it.)

Besides, it was a joke! I do know you would never have anything to do with those types, even if God had magically “revealed” it to you! Sorry!

So multi-quote will only do three quotes? Too bad!

Anyway, I was joking that KJV1769 was in the same class as the Word Faith group, literally denying Scripture, because personal revelation is more important. It was a joke, and I was sorry I didn’t clarify that, and I did apologize for implying it. I know KJV1769 is all about the written Word.

However, as P4T wrote, there is an element of truth to my post on this topic. No, you can’t compare the KJV to other translations and say that God showed you, or rather, you found not all translations were identical. Of course they are not! No one says that 2nd person singular nonsense, to say nothing of obscure words. (Puff - to puff on a pipe? That’s the only modern usage of that word I can think of). Huff in modern English is mostly not a verb, as in “He left in a huff.” Or “huffy?” But I digress!)

But, I must counter this silly argument that looking up “trow” which is not a word anymore, is somehow better than understanding the importance of noun cases in Greek, and how a single ending of a word can make a verse like Luke 2:14 (more in a post to come!) can turn from that God gives peace to all believers, rather than the KJV that God gives peace to everyone - universalism at its worst! The Genitive is so important - translating it wrong, changes the entire meaning of the text.

Which brings me back to the nonsense about comparing the KJV to other translations, and using the KJV as the bar for all other versions. You have started with an untrue pre-supposition, and then proceeded to fulfill it.

So, my point, read the KJV if you like/love it. But, it is NOT the standard to compare. God would never have answered you that way. He would have said, “take Greek and Hebrew, learn to understand the basic grammatical forms, use original language tools to continue to study the Bible and then compare the version to that.” And learn a bit about manuscript evidence, instead of blindly going with the TR, the so-called “Majority Text” which is just copies of copies of copies, which became more and more corrupted with each succeeding generation.

So like the Word Faith people, you have started with a wrong presupposition, and then you have proved your presupposition by using the wrong standard or bar. I think that is what I was trying to say, in that first post I wrote on this topic.

To say nothing of how ironical it is that you constantly are claiming the KJV is so much easier to understand than Greek or Hebrew. When in fact, modern English versions are the easiest for someone to read. I have to think back to when I was 12, and started reading the KJV, even memorized Psalm 8. Then, got so bogged down in the language, I abandoned my study. Would a modern version have kept me on track, so I would have walked with God all those years?

I just know I got saved reading a modern version, when I would not even pick up a KJV. How many people are discouraged be cause the KJV is so difficult to understand? Now, as God brought me back to him, I know he will save whom he wills. (Just learned the correct use of “whom” lately in German class! LOL), and I know he will not give up on others he has called.

But all those years rebelling and causing myself hurt, by not following God, I can only wish a modern version had been available to me in 1965. Well, in the home I grew up in, anyway!
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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I've mentioned before, I've loved Shakespeare since schooldays. Especially the poems and sonnets. But when it comes to Bible study I find the KJ language cumbersome, unnecessary and sometimes......hilarious. I don't read the Bible for entertainment. Everything has a season and a purpose.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
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What's the "message" behind this portion of Scripture:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Are words important to God?
Yes, pure words are.
Notice that the phrase “the prophecy of this book” and “the book of this prophecy” don’t refer to...
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Which reads...”the words of this prophecy.”

Which means the book referred to isn’t the prophecy of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

The book is the Holy Book that God knew he’d publish with the Revelation placed at the end, warning everyone to leave the testimony, the testaments of God alone.

The reason it says it both ways is to reveal that the prophecy, that is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, requires the whole Bible be left not tampered with for readers to understand it rightly.

Note also that the warning proves that Satan, and man is actively seeking to corrupt the Bible.

Probably the worst tampering aims at confusing the saints understanding in the end times.

Daniel also referred to the book. As did Habakkuk and others throughout the history of its being assembled by God in its completed book form and published.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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So, this is a MAJOR theological error in the KJV. While the translators were faithful to the Greek manuscripts they had, they didn't think wisely, in terms of not just the individual words, but the theological implications. And the fact that universalism is not in the rest of Scripture. That alone should have sent off warning bells for those translators.

Corrupted manuscripts caused this issue. And earlier manuscripts contained the sigma, ς which was dropped at the end of a word. So, here is some first year, beginning of the text book, by Bill Mounce, "The Basics of Biblical Greek" which is the standard first year text.


Chapter 7, pg 42, third edition, "The Basics of Biblical Greek" by William D Mounce

Exegetical Insight

"Peace on Earth, good will towards men" (Luke 2:14, KJV)

You have probably all received Christmas cards containing this part of the angels' song to the shepherds on the fields of Bethlehem. But most modern translations read differently:

"on earth peace to men on whom his [God's] favour rests." NIV

"on earth peace among those he [God] favours." NRSV

(My addition - "and on earth peace among people with whom he [God] is pleased." NET)


The difference between the KJV and the others is the difference between the nominative and the genitive.

The Greek manuscripts used to translate the KJV contain εὐδοκία (nominative or the subject) whereas the older or earliest manuscripts used to translate modern versions contain εὐδοκίας (genitive - sometimes called "possession") - literally translated of good will" or "characterized by [God's] good pleasure." In other words, the peace that the angels sang that belonged to the earth as a result of the birth of Christ, is not a generic, worldwide peace for all humankind, but a peace limited to those who obtain favour with God by believing in his son, Jesus (See Romans 5:1).

What a difference a single letter can make in the meaning of the text!

Verlyn Verbrugge"


Τhis is why you do not use KJV as the standard, nor late corrupted manuscripts, which is all that Erasmus had. Instead, you use earlier manuscripts, which do not have vital letters dropped, which do not turn the birth of Christ into universal salvation for all.

So much for inspiration and "perfect."
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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I guess so since all Holy Bibles agree and have the same teachings.

Revelation 22:18-19

NIV
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this book.


NKJV
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


ESV
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

NASB
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
Same teachings or same words? There is a difference you know. One word change, can alter the meaning.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
As long as your number isn't 666


I mean six-hundred three score and six
The 666 is false and is used to hide the truth.
The ‘six hundred, three score and six’ leads toward deeper understanding.

Note how ‘666’ is become a faddish satanist thing, occult quackery.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
So, this is a MAJOR theological error in the KJV. While the translators were faithful to the Greek manuscripts they had, they didn't think wisely, in terms of not just the individual words, but the theological implications. And the fact that universalism is not in the rest of Scripture. That alone should have sent off warning bells for those translators.

Corrupted manuscripts caused this issue. And earlier manuscripts contained the sigma, ς which was dropped at the end of a word. So, here is some first year, beginning of the text book, by Bill Mounce, "The Basics of Biblical Greek" which is the standard first year text.


Chapter 7, pg 42, third edition, "The Basics of Biblical Greek" by William D Mounce

Exegetical Insight

"Peace on Earth, good will towards men" (Luke 2:14, KJV)

You have probably all received Christmas cards containing this part of the angels' song to the shepherds on the fields of Bethlehem. But most modern translations read differently:

"on earth peace to men on whom his [God's] favour rests." NIV

"on earth peace among those he [God] favours." NRSV

(My addition - "and on earth peace among people with whom he [God] is pleased." NET)


The difference between the KJV and the others is the difference between the nominative and the genitive.

The Greek manuscripts used to translate the KJV contain εὐδοκία(nominative or the subject) whereas the older or earliest manuscripts used to translate modern versions contain εὐδοκίας (genitive - sometimes called "possession") - literally translated of good will" or "characterized by [God's] good pleasure." In other words, the peace that the angels sang that belonged to the earth as a result of the birth of Christ, is not a generic, worldwide peace for all humankind, but a peace limited to those who obtain favour with God by believing in his son, Jesus (See Romans 5:1).

What a difference a single letter can make in the meaning of the text!

Verlyn Verbrugge"


Τhis is why you do not use KJV as the standard, nor late corrupted manuscripts, which is all that Erasmus had. Instead, you use earlier manuscripts, which do not have vital letters dropped, which do not turn the birth of Christ into universal salvation for all.

So much for inspiration and "perfect."
You didn’t notice the modern bible quotes are corrupt.
God is not a respecter of persons.
That God has good will toward men is true, concerning the gospel of reconciliation.
That God favors certain men is a lie.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
Same teachings or same words? There is a difference you know. One word change, can alter the meaning.
No worry if you allow the Holy Ghost to apply the standard Authorized Version to correct, reprove and rebuke all error.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,694
3,547
113
I guess so since all Holy Bibles agree and have the same teachings.

Revelation 22:18-19

NIV
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this book.

They do not agree and they do not have the same teachings. Three examples:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Some of the differences in words:

every man or everyone - the gender neutral for all you activists out there who are easily offended
written or described - big difference, I guess this is why you do not think individual words are important
book of life or tree of life - again, big difference between book and tree
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,265
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Playing chess with pigeons.

No matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon will knock all the pieces over,
crap on the board and strut about as if it's victorious.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I think that a child can read and understand what God said about blowhards in Psalm 12.
While adults with a dull axe to grind on the wheel of truth pretend they can’t fathom the meaning of puffeth.
Most people can't read. :)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Pray tell us then from your lofty height which available translations merely "slapped Holy Bible on the front"?

Which Bible publishers would you like to accuse of:

1) Not translating
2) Not utilising language scholars
3) Not studying available manuscripts
4) Not praying for guidance

5) simply writing anything and having " Holy Bible" printed on the cover.
If a bible calls my Savior a son of the gods I throw it in the trash can.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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OK, if you just leave out the word "perfect", you would be in agreement with the rest of us. We also believe that the message can be carried with many different words.

But then some KJVO guy (I do not say its you) comes and says "one word is left out = its an evil corruption".
God is perfect his word is perfect, I can't agree with the rest of you. I see perfection in the KJV so I have to stick with it until someone can prove a bonafide error. I see the word of God on different level than most, my standards for perfection will not align with yours.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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So multi-quote will only do three quotes? Too bad!

Anyway, I was joking that KJV1769 was in the same class as the Word Faith group, literally denying Scripture, because personal revelation is more important. It was a joke, and I was sorry I didn’t clarify that, and I did apologize for implying it. I know KJV1769 is all about the written Word.

However, as P4T wrote, there is an element of truth to my post on this topic. No, you can’t compare the KJV to other translations and say that God showed you, or rather, you found not all translations were identical. Of course they are not! No one says that 2nd person singular nonsense, to say nothing of obscure words. (Puff - to puff on a pipe? That’s the only modern usage of that word I can think of). Huff in modern English is mostly not a verb, as in “He left in a huff.” Or “huffy?” But I digress!)

But, I must counter this silly argument that looking up “trow” which is not a word anymore, is somehow better than understanding the importance of noun cases in Greek, and how a single ending of a word can make a verse like Luke 2:14 (more in a post to come!) can turn from that God gives peace to all believers, rather than the KJV that God gives peace to everyone - universalism at its worst! The Genitive is so important - translating it wrong, changes the entire meaning of the text.

Which brings me back to the nonsense about comparing the KJV to other translations, and using the KJV as the bar for all other versions. You have started with an untrue pre-supposition, and then proceeded to fulfill it.

So, my point, read the KJV if you like/love it. But, it is NOT the standard to compare. God would never have answered you that way. He would have said, “take Greek and Hebrew, learn to understand the basic grammatical forms, use original language tools to continue to study the Bible and then compare the version to that.” And learn a bit about manuscript evidence, instead of blindly going with the TR, the so-called “Majority Text” which is just copies of copies of copies, which became more and more corrupted with each succeeding generation.

So like the Word Faith people, you have started with a wrong presupposition, and then you have proved your presupposition by using the wrong standard or bar. I think that is what I was trying to say, in that first post I wrote on this topic.

To say nothing of how ironical it is that you constantly are claiming the KJV is so much easier to understand than Greek or Hebrew. When in fact, modern English versions are the easiest for someone to read. I have to think back to when I was 12, and started reading the KJV, even memorized Psalm 8. Then, got so bogged down in the language, I abandoned my study. Would a modern version have kept me on track, so I would have walked with God all those years?

I just know I got saved reading a modern version, when I would not even pick up a KJV. How many people are discouraged be cause the KJV is so difficult to understand? Now, as God brought me back to him, I know he will save whom he wills. (Just learned the correct use of “whom” lately in German class! LOL), and I know he will not give up on others he has called.

But all those years rebelling and causing myself hurt, by not following God, I can only wish a modern version had been available to me in 1965. Well, in the home I grew up in, anyway!
You assume a lot lol. I don't use the KJV as the bar to guage any translations. I know God well enough to understand his character and personality and that's the bar I use to guage a translation.

The KJV is the only bible I have ever seen that measures up to that bar - shear perfection and the perfect image of Christ.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
So, this is a MAJOR theological error in the KJV. While the translators were faithful to the Greek manuscripts they had, they didn't think wisely, in terms of not just the individual words, but the theological implications. And the fact that universalism is not in the rest of Scripture. That alone should have sent off warning bells for those translators.

Corrupted manuscripts caused this issue. And earlier manuscripts contained the sigma, ς which was dropped at the end of a word. So, here is some first year, beginning of the text book, by Bill Mounce, "The Basics of Biblical Greek" which is the standard first year text.


Chapter 7, pg 42, third edition, "The Basics of Biblical Greek" by William D Mounce

Exegetical Insight

"Peace on Earth, good will towards men" (Luke 2:14, KJV)

You have probably all received Christmas cards containing this part of the angels' song to the shepherds on the fields of Bethlehem. But most modern translations read differently:

"on earth peace to men on whom his [God's] favour rests." NIV

"on earth peace among those he [God] favours." NRSV

(My addition - "and on earth peace among people with whom he [God] is pleased." NET)


The difference between the KJV and the others is the difference between the nominative and the genitive.

The Greek manuscripts used to translate the KJV contain εὐδοκία(nominative or the subject) whereas the older or earliest manuscripts used to translate modern versions contain εὐδοκίας (genitive - sometimes called "possession") - literally translated of good will" or "characterized by [God's] good pleasure." In other words, the peace that the angels sang that belonged to the earth as a result of the birth of Christ, is not a generic, worldwide peace for all humankind, but a peace limited to those who obtain favour with God by believing in his son, Jesus (See Romans 5:1).

What a difference a single letter can make in the meaning of the text!

Verlyn Verbrugge"


Τhis is why you do not use KJV as the standard, nor late corrupted manuscripts, which is all that Erasmus had. Instead, you use earlier manuscripts, which do not have vital letters dropped, which do not turn the birth of Christ into universal salvation for all.

So much for inspiration and "perfect."
Are you suggesting that the God who so loved the world (unsaved people included) that he gave his only BEGOTTEN son only directs his good will on those whom he favors?
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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