Lazarus and the prosperity gospel

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thefightinglamb

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#1
I think I have seen a lot of Christians who would find fault with Lazarus for begging outside the rich man's place, because he 'did not lay hold of the wealth of God and prosper with worldly blessings from God'...like the newest camel, the nicest palace, the most expensive sandels, and every other vanity of the gospel times...

See, I do not get bugged much when I hear people holding beliefs that are false, I just try to help them, and if they listen then the Lord be praised and if not, then it really is their own choice...

But this belief that Christians will be blessed with worldly wealth is ludicrous...Sometimes David is brought up to say that you are to 'have wealth but not have your mind trapped by it'...silly people what use is it to have things if you do not care about them? Sell them and give the money to the poor, who will bless you a thousand times for giving away something you claim does not trap your mind...

But even like the richman who walked away from the Lord sorrowfull, you see that your possessions and worldly wealth has laid a snare for your soul...and perhaps you have to defend 'your right to be blessed by God in the most luxurious way possible.'

They say, "Okay, Lord, I will carry my cross and be crucified with you, but my cross will be in the back of my Hummer, and be made of the finest timber and my nails that pierce my hands will be made of gold...for the Lord has blessed me with all of this..."

Such foolish thinking...do you not read the warning everywhere in the New Testament against the rich...that summons after the beautitudes should be enough, "Woe to you who are rich--for you have received your reward."

Lazarus was not rich nor was he condemned by Jesus for being poor, but instead Jesus condemned the richman that walked by this needy person every day of his life...how many people that are needy do you callously ignore to indulge in frivolties?

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle that for a richman to enter the kingdom of God."
And do not kid yourself it is just talking about not letting your riches distract you from Christ...look at what that statement actually says...

And understand this, those who are given much, much will be demanded of;
and those who ar entrusted with much, much more will be required of them...

And apply this to yourself in truth and do not worm yourself out of it...This reminds me of a wealthy lady I worked for as a teenager...She had a beautiful house on the water, and she had so much furniture and rooms that she NEVER used...and I tell you what was the point of her having those rooms if she did not use them? The moth and rust will destroy them, and the Lord will require that she be held responsible for the wealth she had that she let fall into decay instead of using all of it to be a blessing to her or someone needy...

I am done ranting for now...but much more to say...

May our treasure ALWAYS be in heaven...
tony
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#2
i think you're being a bit too judgemental when it comes to those with more wealth than you have. We dont need chairs we can sit on boxes, we dont need cutlery we can use our fingers, where do you draw the line?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,047
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#3
No problem with being harsh about the prosperity gospel.. this is NOT what Jesus teaches.. or anyone else in the bible.

Prosper- in the bible is not meant to be used in reference to riches and possessions.. but spiritual growth in Jesus.. which could mean more money as an outcome - eg. wanting ot be a Pastor.. and that position happens to be paid well. Money ain't the motivator.. and actually most Pastors don't have alot of money due to fluctuating tithing contributions.. churches that support the pastor sometimes stopping support.. and other problems.

Anyway,

in regards to material possessions and money.. the bible generally goes along the lines of being a good steward of what you got.. not coveting money and possessions. Really it is being such a good stewad of what you got, that money and material possessions have no hold on you!
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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#4
I was never a big fan of the prosperity gospel, not that being blessed is wrong. But being judged because you are having a hard time is. My hubby and I were judged by some when we were having hard times. The thing was that because we had to depend on Jesus for even our next meal , freed us so much from the world. During that time I felt so close to Jesus that it seemed as though I walked on air. Many spiritual gifts were given at that time, the greatest was contentment in all circomstances. Now we are learning to be good stewards. It is allways about faith, hope and love. Not about the bankbook. God bless, pickles
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#5
I was never a big fan of the prosperity gospel, not that being blessed is wrong. But being judged because you are having a hard time is. My hubby and I were judged by some when we were having hard times. The thing was that because we had to depend on Jesus for even our next meal , freed us so much from the world. During that time I felt so close to Jesus that it seemed as though I walked on air. Many spiritual gifts were given at that time, the greatest was contentment in all circomstances. Now we are learning to be good stewards. It is allways about faith, hope and love. Not about the bankbook. God bless, pickles

I agree, the prosperity gospel, is not the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And, as pickles says those in that camp have huge problems if they don't obtain prosperity ie. material possessions and wealth, what happens to their faith when the money does not roll in and they get sick.

heres a short clip from John Piper on the prosperity gospel. it is well worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s

As a side note, send me a gift of $200 and i will send you a healing and wealth providing prayer, and if you can't afford that I'll accept $150, and if you can't afford that, forget it, because you have not got any faith!!!!!! (Only joking) but I am sick of TV Money spinning evangelists getting on like that, hood winking those in need and distorting the gospel of our Lord and Saviour, Christ Jesus.


Soli Deo Gloria

Phil
 
W

Walter11

Guest
#7
The world is a bridge, pass over it but build no house on it. He who hopes for an hour hopes for eternity. The world is but for an hour, spend it in devotion.
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#8
I think the line is drawn when we are buying useless frivolities (like collecting expensive china we never use, or filling our house with expensive crystal bowls that are put on a shelf and never touched again) instead of using that money for good. Try buying art where the proceeds go to a charity, or buy handmade pottery from impoverished nations where the money will go to help a family eat for another day. Instead of buying another designer shirt for $150 dollars that you'll only wear once or twice, buy some shirts and give them to homeless shelters. When you have a garage sale, are are selling "junk" you didn't want anymore anyway, instead of using the money to go buy a plasma screen tv, or go on a shopping spree, donate the money to people who need it just to be able to put a bite of food in their mouth.

I don't think there is anything wrong with being blessed with wealth. We can't all be poor, just like we can't all be rich. But seriously, what does any person need with a mansion that has more rooms than you have friends who can fill it, a bathtub you can swim in, faucets made from gold? I don't think God will condemn us for living comfortably within our means, but when we start filling our lives with things we can buy for ourselves instead of ways we could use our wealth to help others, I think that's when we've let the world into our hearts and not Jesus.
 
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thefightinglamb

Guest
#9
I am NOt being judgmental, I really do not "care about" wealth one way or the other...

To evangelize people by saying that they will 'live and be blessed like Americans' because they follow Christ is a lie--and more than a lie in third world nations, it is blinding them to what Jesus really wants them to see...because after they are told this they are confronted with the idea that if they become wealthy then God blessed them and thus they are a Christian, but nothing can be farther from the truth...

I was thinking about this yesterday, and I do think, as it says in Corinthians that Christians will be blessed in every way so that they can bless others--where Paul appeals to them to offer contributions for the poor somewhere else...but I do not think they would be able to do this, if instead of looking after others needs they were seeking the latest vanities...

Okay, and again with Lazarus...I think it is a clear-cut analogy...how many people who are starving for a meal do you walk over/past to walk to your BMW? That is directly what this story is demanding you look at...It is not that you have wealth, but that your wealth causes you to become callous to the needs of others more often than not...

And even more thought-provoking, why do people consider it a sin to give someone perishing money (believing they may spend it on alcohol--I do not believe in alcohol just for the records nor am I suggesting it) and not when they go out that same day and spend probably from 4x-500x as much on some vanity/idol in their own life?

And on the other side, why did Jesus not find fault with this man for not having faith in God that his sores would be healed 'in the name of Jesus'? Was it his lack of faith that allowed dogs to come and lick his sores? I think not... Jesus does not look at him with haughty eye and say, you are perishing because you do not have faith in Me...in fact he shows the richman going straight to hell and Lazarus going to Abraham's bosom?

Which makes me believe that sickness is NOT there because of lack of faith...this man had saving faith, he went to paradise...but for some mysterous reason it is even in the righteous, even infecting those who believe fully in Christ...

God bless
tony

ps...I really do not care about riches either way, but I find that they more often then not lead people astray from following Christ...You cannot serve both God and Mammon.....!!!!!!!!!! And the more people try to compromise what God wants with what the flesh wants, the more you got people caught up in a lie, seving the latter...
 
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pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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#10
The funny thing is that now that we have more we spend more time taking care of it. I would like to scale back when our kids all finally move out. Hubby still is not sure. I find myself thinking of the simpler times when we had less but so much more in Jesus and life. Alot of memories in your home though. God bless, pickles
 
K

kingschild

Guest
#11
yeah, that makes sense.
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#12
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle that for a richman to enter the kingdom of God."
And do not kid yourself it is just talking about not letting your riches distract you from Christ...look at what that statement actually says...
I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, but this quote has been used a lot and most people do not really know the true meaning of it, it does not literally mean the eye of a sowing needle as we know it...do you?
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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#13
I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, but this quote has been used a lot and most people do not really know the true meaning of it, it does not literally mean the eye of a sowing needle as we know it...do you?
If I recall the right place, It is Jerusalem, and it refurs to a spacific gate that to enter you must take off all you carry as it is so narrow an entrance. God bless, pickles
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#14
The 'camels gate'... apparently, it never existed and if it did there is no proof of it.

Health and wealth teachers use this to help their teachings, it goes something like: the camel gate is small and the camel can squeeze thru but only just.


you get the idea.

Phil
 
May 21, 2009
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#15
It's ok to be rich as long as you help the poor very much. Love God more than money. That was a big amount of gold one of the wise men gave Jesus. Plus the other gifts if sold cost a great deal of money. There's no place in the bible that says for God's people to be poor. There are many places in the bible that say to be blessed till it over flows. You are to want the things of God first then he wants to bless you with lots of other treasures. The streets in heaven are made of gold. The gates are made of giant pearls. Our God isn't poor. Poor people can't go out and feed starving children. You are the child of a KING. God bless you, Love
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#16
I thought your statements about a wealthy lady was being down-right judgemental:

...This reminds me of a wealthy lady I worked for as a teenager...She had a beautiful house on the water, and she had so much furniture and rooms that she NEVER used...and I tell you what was the point of her having those rooms if she did not use them? The moth and rust will destroy them, and the Lord will require that she be held responsible for the wealth she had that she let fall into decay instead of using all of it to be a blessing to her or someone needy...
Perhaps she worked hard for what she had ?


...because after they are told this they are confronted with the idea that if they become wealthy then God blessed them and thus they are a Christian, but nothing can be farther from the truth...
I don't think that is correct. God does bless people with wealth and riches particularly His own children.
Note what Jesus said:

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Did you see that? Jesus said he shall receive a 100 fold now in this earth, houses, lands etc. Sounds like God's blessing and prosperity to me?
 
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thefightinglamb

Guest
#17
The point was that the rich lady NEVER used what she had...so it was pointless to have some of the stuff that was just falling into decay...

Hmmm....Mark 10:30

First things first, there is no way to interprit this as prosperity...Do you really think every Christian that is truly a Christian has a 100 houses? are you really meaning to take this verse literally? and do you really think Jesus is telling them to look at their lands, they will recieve a 100x as much land because they are following him...I doubt it...it does not seem true in Jesus Christ's life, nor in his apostles lives, nor in his disciples lives, nor in the book of Acts...

I believe this verse is referring directly to something spiritual; I know it is not saying that my physical mother will have a 100x as many kids, so why should the rest be interpreted literally...It must all refer to the spiritual body of Christ, and how everything that is is God's; and that if you are God than in a certain since it is yours, but it is never 'mine' or 'yours' as in your personal possession...that would make no sense...

This is how I see it for now...

God bless
tony
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#18
Yes I think you're right about that ;). Jesus was saying what they'd get in this life, is as if they had 100 houses, land etc. But He was saying that God would prosper them, but not necessarily with worldly goods. But God does prosper whoever he wants with worldly goods. He has promised to bless those who work hard etc.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#19
No problem with being harsh about the prosperity gospel.. this is NOT what Jesus teaches.. or anyone else in the bible.

Prosper- in the bible is not meant to be used in reference to riches and possessions.. but spiritual growth in Jesus.. which could mean more money as an outcome - eg. wanting ot be a Pastor.. and that position happens to be paid well. Money ain't the motivator.. and actually most Pastors don't have alot of money due to fluctuating tithing contributions.. churches that support the pastor sometimes stopping support.. and other problems.

Anyway,

in regards to material possessions and money.. the bible generally goes along the lines of being a good steward of what you got.. not coveting money and possessions. Really it is being such a good stewad of what you got, that money and material possessions have no hold on you!
1ki 2:3And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:
 
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thefightinglamb

Guest
#20
Then again, sometimes I think the spiritual truth in Mark 10:30 is somewhat spiritually literal...

I remember a profound Christian friend I had once that told me near the time I turned to the Lord that 'when you are a Christian none of your stuff belongs to you but it belongs to every Christian.' Meaning like every Christian's home is your home if you are a Christian, and their lands et cetera are yours as well...I know thats radical but I see that as being true even as it says it was in Acts...

Thaddeus and others...You have to ask yourself though since you are bringing up this Old Testament stuff...how does this apply to Jeremiah and the other faithful prophets when Israel was profane in adultry??? Did God prosper them wordly?

In the New Testament, we see the same those who follow God are not often if ever wordly rich...

Okay another rant...and this one against that arch enemy my past...Okay, here in America many of us go to colleges were the wealthy squander their time, money, and everything else on 'prodigal son-like living' and I was like this...and I have got to ask myself the honest question now, where was the empathy and compassion for those like in Africa and other places that were starving for bread while I was squandering my blessings away...but its the same with other vanities when you have riches, what are you really seeking when you buy all this chains you think you possess? Meanwhile, I know I was probably walking over and by thousands of Lazarus's to feed my emptiness...and its the same with you if you seek riches and indulge yourself in wealth, what Lazarus are you walking by in order to buy the biggest, most expensive flat screen tv? while your neighbor outside is starving, you walk on this other side of the road..you false neighbor...and non-samaritan...

Done ranting again

God bless
tony
 
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