Legalism doesn't help

[Elijah19]

Please note this well: I am not saying that we shouldn't take the law VERY seriously. Obedience is paramount as Jesus said that if anyone truly loves him they will keep his commands (John 14:15). All I am saying is that when we try to make "human righteousness" a substitute for loving Godliness we are committing a fatal error, and it leads people astray into thinking that Christianity is just another works religion, or that we are all just a bunch of constant hypocrites. There actually isn't such a thing as "human righteousness." All goodness finds it's roots in God alone, and everything else is selfish pride and showmanship. Jesus condemned the religious leaders (Pharasees) of His people in Matthew 15 and in Matthew 23 calling them "snakes and broods of vipers."

This was pretty heavy talk coming from Jesus, and it was well deserved. The point that I'm trying to make to all my Legalist brothers and sisters in Christ out there is this. Yes, Jesus loves you, and wants he you and others to obey Him. But He doesn't want you to think of yourself as Holier than thou, to hate the sinner with the sin, to shove the laws of men down peoples throats while passing them off as the words of God, or to condemn the speck in your brothers eye while all the time there is a giant log in your own eye! Plus, you make Christianity look bad when you give everyone an impossible and unreasonable standard that can only be reached by Grace, then you tell us to reach it by effort. In the end both we and you will fail and the world will not be able to take our testament about Jesus Christ seriously.

So please... I love you to death, Legalists, and I truly know that you mean well, but you are only hurting the cause. Learn to love the thieves, sluts, liars, and haters before you go condemning. Then you can truly help the person, just as Jesus met them where they were, and still condemn their sin but love the sinner with a clear conscience.

I'm usually not the kinda guy who goes arround touting the "Judge not that you be not judged (Matt. 7:1)" verse (since I think it's way overused out of context), but this time I think it applies quite nicely.

 

[Hizikyah]

I assume I would be called one of the "legalists" here....

We are told the Mystery of Iniquity has overtaken the words in Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:7, "For the mystery of iniquity is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan..."

I think the Mystery of Iniquity has made people think calling a sin what it is...legalism.

Yahdah 1:4, "For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."

Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother frankly, so you will not share in his guilt."

Mattithyah 14:10-14, "Beware that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I say to you: In heaven their malakim always see the face of My Father Who is in heaven. The Son of Man has come to save that which was lost; So what do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, but one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine to go search the mountains for the one that has gone astray? And if it should be that he finds it, truly I say to you that he rejoices more over that one, than over the ninety-nine which never strayed. In the same way, it is not the will of your Father Who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."

Matt 15:14, "Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch."

I am imperfect I know I don't always say things in the right way.

One thing I find troublesome, is that if I stated this ("Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city") I would be called a legalists, yet Messiah said it in His final written message to mankind....

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

I'm open to correction if I am in error.

 

[SeaBass]

Please note this well: I am not saying that we shouldn't take the law VERY seriously. Obedience is paramount as Jesus said that if anyone truly loves him they will keep his commands (John 14:15). All I am saying is that when we try to make "human righteousness" a substitute for loving Godliness we are committing a fatal error, and it leads people astray into thinking that Christianity is just another works religion, or that we are all just a bunch of constant hypocrites......

A problem you will face here with what I hi-lited above in blue is if you keep God's commandments you will be called a 'legalist' who is doing works to earn salvation.

The problem is that some will refuse to differentiate between obeying/doing GOD'S righteousness and doing one's OWN righteousness. You point out the difference above in your post when you speak of one who substitutes doing "human righteousness" instead of doing GOD'S righteousness.

Paul also points out the difference in Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Paul says those Jews were lost for they went about establishing their OWN (human) righteousness and would not submit/obey GOD'S righteousness to be saved.

 

[psalm6819]

Jesus is the righteousness of God.

 

[Hizikyah]

A problem you will face here with what I hi-lited above in blue is if you keep God's commandments you will be called a 'legalist' who is doing works to earn salvation.

The problem is that some will refuse to differentiate between obeying/doing GOD'S righteousness and doing one's OWN righteousness. You point out the difference above in your post when you speak of one who substitutes doing "human righteousness" instead of doing GOD'S righteousness.

Paul also points out the difference in Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Paul says those Jews were lost for they went about establishing their OWN (human) righteousness and would not submit/obey GOD'S righteousness to be saved.

They made their own way:

Mark 7:5-9, "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: 1This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!"

Here is proof from THEIR (Pharisees*) OWN LITERATURE;

They take this passage; (Deuteronomy 30:11-13) After Midrashic interpretation is applied, they come out with : "‘It is not in heaven.’4 What did he mean by this? — Said R. Jeremiah: That the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai; *we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice" (Baba Metzia 59b)

Deuteronomy 30:11-13, "For this Law which I command you this day is not hidden from you, nor is it beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask; Who will ascend up into heaven for us, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask; Who will cross the sea, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it?"

 

[Hizikyah]

Jesus is the righteousness of God.

John (Yahchanan) 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

Mattithyah 1:21-23, “And she will give birth to a Son and you will call His Name YAHSHUA; (Yahweh is Salvation); for Yahweh will save His people from their sins. Now all this was done to fulfill what Yahweh had spoken through the prophet (Isayah 7:14), saying: Behold a virgin will conceive, and bear a Son, and will bring forth the sign IMMANUYAH-which means that Yahweh Of Hosts Is With Us.

Psalm 40:16, "May all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You! May those who love Your Salvation always say: May Yahweh be magnified!"

 

[Elin]

A problem you will face here with what I hi-lited above in blue is if you keep God's commandments you will be called a 'legalist' who is doing works to earn salvation.

The problem is that some will refuse to differentiate between obeying/doing GOD'S righteousness and doing one's OWN righteousness. You point out the difference above in your post when you speak of one who substitutes doing "human righteousness" instead of doing GOD'S righteousness.

Paul also points out the difference in Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Paul says those Jews were lost for they went about establishing their OWN (human) righteousness and would not submit/obey GOD'S righteousness to be saved.

Keeping in mind that God's righteousness is the gift (Ro 5:17) of justification by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Elijah19]

Everything you said here is right. All I'm pointing out is that we can't put human achievement or glory over God.

 

[john832]

Everything you said here is right. All I'm pointing out is that we can't put human achievement or glory over God.

Neither Hizikyah nor my self have EVER said that. We have always said that we are saved by the grace of God. What we have said is that sin is defined by Law and all of us sin. The result is that all of break the Law, we are all guilty and all need grace.

 

[Elin]

Jesus is the righteousness of God.

Yes, Jesus is God (Jn 1:1) who is righteous.
Jesus is the righteousness of God, as well as all the attributes of God.

 

[john832]

Yes, Jesus is God (Jn 1:1) who is righteous.
Jesus is the righteousness of God, as well as all the attributes of God.

God says some other things are righteousness...

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Deu 24:13 In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the LORD thy God.

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Doing what God says with the right motives is righteousness. Now please note, there is a difference between righteousness and being saved. Doing righteous acts does not save, salvation is a gift.

 

[Karraster]

It's not hard to educate yourself as to what is instructions of our Almighty Creator, and are rules laid down by man (for centuries).

It's also not hard to see those who lump them in altogether, then twist it around to say that following Messiah is Legalism.

My quest to the OP, do you see the difference? I ask because of all the threads warning us all about legalism, yet in my time here I have not encountered 1. Who, pray tell, are these fiends?

 

[psalm6819]

God says some other things are righteousness...

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Deu 24:13 In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the LORD thy God.

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Doing what God says with the right motives is righteousness. Now please note, there is a difference between righteousness and being saved. Doing righteous acts does not save, salvation is a gift.

AMEN!!!! Rightly dividing the Word.

 

[Elin]

Yes, Jesus is God (Jn 1:1) who is righteous.
Jesus is the righteousness of God, as well as all the attributes of God.

God says some other things are righteousness...

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Deu 24:13 In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the LORD thy God.

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Doing what God says with the right motives is righteousness.

Now please note, there is a difference between righteousness and being saved.
Doing righteous acts does not save, salvation is a gift.

Yes, the righteousness that saves is the gift of righteousness (Ro 5:17) from God (Ro 1:17, 3:21).

 

[SeaBass]

Keeping in mind that God's righteousness is the gift (Ro 5:17) of justification by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9).

Psa 119:172 ".... for all thy commandments are righteousness."

God's righteousness are His commands and in Rom 10:3 those Jews were lost for not submitting/obeying/doing God's commands.

 

[Utah]

Please note this well: I am not saying that we shouldn't take the law VERY seriously. Obedience is paramount as Jesus said that if anyone truly loves him they will keep his commands (John 14:15). All I am saying is that when we try to make "human righteousness" a substitute for loving Godliness we are committing a fatal error, and it leads people astray into thinking that Christianity is just another works religion, or that we are all just a bunch of constant hypocrites. There actually isn't such a thing as "human righteousness." All goodness finds it's roots in God alone, and everything else is selfish pride and showmanship. Jesus condemned the religious leaders (Pharasees) of His people in Matthew 15 and in Matthew 23 calling them "snakes and broods of vipers."

This was pretty heavy talk coming from Jesus, and it was well deserved. The point that I'm trying to make to all my Legalist brothers and sisters in Christ out there is this. Yes, Jesus loves you, and wants he you and others to obey Him. But He doesn't want you to think of yourself as Holier than thou, to hate the sinner with the sin, to shove the laws of men down peoples throats while passing them off as the words of God, or to condemn the speck in your brothers eye while all the time there is a giant log in your own eye! Plus, you make Christianity look bad when you give everyone an impossible and unreasonable standard that can only be reached by Grace, then you tell us to reach it by effort. In the end both we and you will fail and the world will not be able to take our testament about Jesus Christ seriously.

So please... I love you to death, Legalists, and I truly know that you mean well, but you are only hurting the cause. Learn to love the thieves, sluts, liars, and haters before you go condemning. Then you can truly help the person, just as Jesus met them where they were, and still condemn their sin but love the sinner with a clear conscience.

I'm usually not the kinda guy who goes arround touting the "Judge not that you be not judged (Matt. 7:1)" verse (since I think it's way overused out of context), but this time I think it applies quite nicely.

There's one self righteous legalist on this site who's so pent up with anger and hate I'm surprised they haven't joined al qaeda just to help rid the world of us, Embrace the Grace, infidels.

 

[damombomb]

Keeping God's word is one thing. Legalist can put you in bonds. (If you don't do this or that) or traditions of men. Jesus sets us free from the law of sin and death. If someone comes into church they need the love of Christ. (That is what won me over. Seeing someone who walked the word and had the love of Christ.) No condemning or judging. But preached the word completely. A true worshiper. And the Holy Spirit drawing. Jesus wants us to know is pure love, come as we are, to heal us, he is jealous for our love and wants a one on one relationship. It get's me to hear someone say, that pastor or so and so was a drug user or this or that. Jesus came to save the lost, sinners, ungodly. To do a work in their life.

 

[Elin]

Psa 119:172 ".... for all thy commandments are righteousness."

God's righteousness are His commands and in Rom 10:3 those Jews were lost for not submitting/obeying/doing God's commands.

God's righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17, 1:17, 3:21) to us.

 

[SeaBass]

God's righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17, 1:17, 3:21) to us.

Righteousness is doing/obeying God's commands, Rom 6:16; Rom 10:3, and not something God randomly gives to some men.

God reckons those righteous that do His righteousness.

 

[Elin]

God's righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17, 1:17, 3:21) to us.

Righteousness is doing/obeying God's commands, Rom 6:16; Rom 10:3, and
not something God randomly
gives to some men.

So righteousness is from God (Ro 1:17, 3:21) and righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17),
but God doesn't give the gift of righteousness.

You're not making sense.

God reckons those righteous that do His righteousness.

That's not how it worked with Abraham (Ge 15:6).

That's now what Paul says (Ro 4:5, 13).