Can someone who gets accused of legalism respond on whether or not I portrayed your beliefs properly? You know who you are, and I am wondering if I did a fair job in representing you (admittedly with some bias). I am thinking of those people we usually engage with on law vs grace threads. If I did a terrible job, can you clarify your position so that we can clear the air for understanding?
Legalism's Mistake: Confusing Cause & Effect (Sanctification)
- Thread starter BenFTW
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K
I can understand what you are trying to do and I respect that Ben, but until you start getting on to others who are derailing your threads to keep the false accusations of legalism, works to earn salvationists this will never end.
Even if we come on here and clearly repeat, repeat, repeat, and repeat again our stance it still gets overlooked to keep slapping these bias labels on us.
We do not teach/preach works to earn salvation, we do not preach/teach works to maintain salvation !!!
As a matter of fact I have not seen one person on here in a long time that teaches works or the Mosaic laws have to be obeyed for salvation.
All we do from our side is emphasize on the works that are produced by all true born again believers because they come from the fruit of the Holy Spirit and how even the Lord said in Matthew 7:19 that those without those fruit will be cut off and burned.
Because no fruit of the Spirit shows there is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in that person, therefore they go hand and hand in the faith of Jesus unto salvation. For this we get labeled as legalist's !!!
Again here is the basis of what we teach and preach:
Works do not get/earn salvation, Works do not maintain salvation, Works though are proof of true born again believer in Christ to salvation.
Anybody who says we teach other than that is miss reading what we said, or they just hate the word works all together and think it is dirty to even mention the word. And I have seen some on here who do try to classify all works the same, sad it really is !!!
Even if we come on here and clearly repeat, repeat, repeat, and repeat again our stance it still gets overlooked to keep slapping these bias labels on us.
We do not teach/preach works to earn salvation, we do not preach/teach works to maintain salvation !!!
As a matter of fact I have not seen one person on here in a long time that teaches works or the Mosaic laws have to be obeyed for salvation.
All we do from our side is emphasize on the works that are produced by all true born again believers because they come from the fruit of the Holy Spirit and how even the Lord said in Matthew 7:19 that those without those fruit will be cut off and burned.
Because no fruit of the Spirit shows there is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in that person, therefore they go hand and hand in the faith of Jesus unto salvation. For this we get labeled as legalist's !!!
Again here is the basis of what we teach and preach:
Works do not get/earn salvation, Works do not maintain salvation, Works though are proof of true born again believer in Christ to salvation.
Anybody who says we teach other than that is miss reading what we said, or they just hate the word works all together and think it is dirty to even mention the word. And I have seen some on here who do try to classify all works the same, sad it really is !!!
E
Yet you teach salvation can be lost. Which means it must be earned.
What causes the gift to lost (what ever work it is one must do or not do) is not the question. The mere fact that the work is required is what matters.
Do not say your not trying to earn salvation, when you teach salvation can be lost (must be earned)
That's the problem Ken, no matter how many times you repeat, repeat, repeat, you believe in salvation by grace through faith, but an obedient faith which produces good fruit by the Holy Spirit, and also a ceasing of sin by the power of God, they will still accuse and label. Why? Because their own works and fruits are evil. They want to eliminate the works part completely by calling it "legalism" but good works is a part of being faithful. And they want an excuse for ongoing sin by saying sin does not matter anymore when your under grace. That's why those who speak out against sin are labeled "sinless perfectionists"
When their doctrine does not hold up to the Truth according to the words of God, they then bring false claims, accusations, and labels in order to gain support for their own ongoing wickedness.
We are sanctified through the Truth, God's words are Truth and are Life. If you are living in sin you are not abiding in Christ, therefore you also are not abiding in the Truth.
Jesus told us what a good tree looks and sounds like, and that good tree will produce good fruits of righteousness, not lawlessness.
When their doctrine does not hold up to the Truth according to the words of God, they then bring false claims, accusations, and labels in order to gain support for their own ongoing wickedness.
We are sanctified through the Truth, God's words are Truth and are Life. If you are living in sin you are not abiding in Christ, therefore you also are not abiding in the Truth.
Jesus told us what a good tree looks and sounds like, and that good tree will produce good fruits of righteousness, not lawlessness.
E
See how blind you people are. You just placed conditions on recieveing gods grace and mercy, You just taught that salvation is not of grace, but of doing these things which are works.
And you want to call us blind and sensless and judgmental?
If you taught that salvation is of grace, and that everyone who is saved will do those things, and continue to do them, because it is the power of God working in them, then we would agree 100 % and be on the same page, because this is what we teach over here on my side (even though you deny we teach it)
But you do not stop there. You claim we can do all these things, yet not work hard enough to stay on track, and stumble and fall and lose our grace gift based on Gods mercy, And thats where you get off track and preach works..
Oh, Now who is bearing false witness. Our works are evil because we trust the power of God. and your works are not? Get read dude. You just destroyed your whole argument and made yourself a hypocrite
Who is excusing sin, no one but yourself. You cannot live up to your own standard. Let alone Gods standard, which is perfection.
Jesus has a standard, he calls it the law. He said you want to earn your way to heaven, Here is my law. Confirm and obey every word written in this law. and you will get in of your own merit. Fail to do this, and your cursed.
So how good at you at living up tp Gods standard?
As for me,
I humbly admit i have failed. No sin hiding here, God knows every one of my sins, including my hidden sins, I can't hide anything from God.
so why do you think you can hide yours?
Aww poor guy,
The wicked tell everyone how good and righteous they are. and praise God they are not sinners. They reject the humble sinner who praises God for showing them mercy because they fell on their knees. From your gospel, your not even justified freely by the grace of God. your trying to earn it, Sanctification has not even yet entered the equation. You need to repent first.
Yep. And he also told us what his children have.. which totally contradicts what you people claim one in Christ has.
John 6:
vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
7 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed,and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
The living food. which endures forever, and never fades.
Sorry you deny all these promises Jesus made to everyone, and call him a liar. your worse than the catholics who state Jesus spoke of the eucharist. you deny his words completely. and say one can do what he said, and not have ANY of what he promised they would have.
Nice try bud.. Good luck with your legalism.
as for me, I will follow God, His promises, and his way, Not my self promoting way.
From what I understand, that's not what he is saying (or trying to say). Rather, he is saying a true Christian will work. So he is making work a necessity of a true believer. So the work is not a requirement of salvation but is a necessity of a true Christian. I know its a subtle distinction but he is trying to say that it isn't a requirement to maintain or earn salvation but is a fruit of true conversion.
We, then, must argue that works are not a necessary result of conversion and are a possibility rather than a necessity. So if someone doesn't walk in these works, they are by no means less saved. We could point to the thief on the cross to show this, that it was simple faith in Jesus that got him into paradise. We are saved unto good works, but the works, whether done or not done, do not save us even if they are a result of who we now are and God working in and through us His perfect will.
Someone who believes and dies the next moment for example, does not have the time to do these works. Does it make them any less saved? No, they have faith in Jesus so they are saved. So while the fruit of conversion leads to good works, the good works that may or may not be done have no say in salvation. Yes, they follow as a result of true conversion, but if the opportunity for good works doesn't present itself due to imminent death we then have a clause. Good works may follow true conversion. That is, if given the opportunity.
The fact that there is a clause that negates the necessity of works means that ultimately works do not maintain salvation. I am sure KennethC agrees, as he says works do not maintain salvation. The problem, however, is to make works a necessity of true conversion, ignoring that there is a clause that the works can only be done if given the opportunity.
My question would be, "What if the opportunity does present itself to do good works, and then you do not do the work?" I am going to guess that KennethC would question the sincerity of that person's belief and whether they are truly converted. So it goes around in circles because its all about fruit inspection. The necessity for good works means you can determine if someone is a Christian by their conduct. The problem with this is that it doesn't consider that fruit takes time to bear, and so you have no place to judge others sincerity because maybe they haven't yet come to full fruition.
Do you see it? Its not that he is saying good works maintain salvation, or earns it. He is saying that a true Christian will have these things follow. I disagree, and think that a true Christian could (possibly) have these things follow. The necessity for good works is not presented as something we have to do, but that we will do as born-again Christians. If that makes sense. He is trying to define what a true Christian will do as a result of belief. His mistake is in thinking it is a necessity to walk in the fruit of true conversion, and isn't acknowledging that there are clauses to consider, that would make it to where one does not walk in these good works (such as death, being bed ridden, or a death bed confession).
I am trying to clear the air, and clear up confusion from misunderstandings. I think the problem here, the disagreement, is on the necessity for good works, and also sanctification (as I titled this thread). We are quick to define KennethC a Legalist, but he is basically just being a fruit inspector (no offense to him). He is calling for the necessity of the fruit of conversion. We are saying that although it is a fruit (the good works), it is not a necessary fruit and has no say upon ones salvation ultimately.
Hope that helps...
We, then, must argue that works are not a necessary result of conversion and are a possibility rather than a necessity. So if someone doesn't walk in these works, they are by no means less saved. We could point to the thief on the cross to show this, that it was simple faith in Jesus that got him into paradise. We are saved unto good works, but the works, whether done or not done, do not save us even if they are a result of who we now are and God working in and through us His perfect will.
Someone who believes and dies the next moment for example, does not have the time to do these works. Does it make them any less saved? No, they have faith in Jesus so they are saved. So while the fruit of conversion leads to good works, the good works that may or may not be done have no say in salvation. Yes, they follow as a result of true conversion, but if the opportunity for good works doesn't present itself due to imminent death we then have a clause. Good works may follow true conversion. That is, if given the opportunity.
The fact that there is a clause that negates the necessity of works means that ultimately works do not maintain salvation. I am sure KennethC agrees, as he says works do not maintain salvation. The problem, however, is to make works a necessity of true conversion, ignoring that there is a clause that the works can only be done if given the opportunity.
My question would be, "What if the opportunity does present itself to do good works, and then you do not do the work?" I am going to guess that KennethC would question the sincerity of that person's belief and whether they are truly converted. So it goes around in circles because its all about fruit inspection. The necessity for good works means you can determine if someone is a Christian by their conduct. The problem with this is that it doesn't consider that fruit takes time to bear, and so you have no place to judge others sincerity because maybe they haven't yet come to full fruition.
Do you see it? Its not that he is saying good works maintain salvation, or earns it. He is saying that a true Christian will have these things follow. I disagree, and think that a true Christian could (possibly) have these things follow. The necessity for good works is not presented as something we have to do, but that we will do as born-again Christians. If that makes sense. He is trying to define what a true Christian will do as a result of belief. His mistake is in thinking it is a necessity to walk in the fruit of true conversion, and isn't acknowledging that there are clauses to consider, that would make it to where one does not walk in these good works (such as death, being bed ridden, or a death bed confession).
I am trying to clear the air, and clear up confusion from misunderstandings. I think the problem here, the disagreement, is on the necessity for good works, and also sanctification (as I titled this thread). We are quick to define KennethC a Legalist, but he is basically just being a fruit inspector (no offense to him). He is calling for the necessity of the fruit of conversion. We are saying that although it is a fruit (the good works), it is not a necessary fruit and has no say upon ones salvation ultimately.
Hope that helps...
E
Brother I know what your trying to do. But I have discussed with these guys to know he is saying more than this.
If this is ALL he was saying, we would have absolutely no argument. As I tried to show you before.
Every sunday I go to church, Every other Friday and or Thursday (once a week but on different nights each week) I either study behind or teach myself the sanctification of a child born of God, and the works which are a result of our faith in Christ. So if I judge what you just said as legalism, I would have to judge myself one.
We could. if they did not preach salvation will be lost if these works are not maintained. But they do not. in fact, we would not even be discussing it, We would be discussing how much we agree with the word of God. and trying to provoke each other to good works and studying the word to make ourselves ready for all satan can throw at us, Sadly we can not do this.
I know a man who was saved on his deathbed, And the demeanor in his heart and fear he had moments before. were gone, He showed works worthy of true faith, he even wanted to get baptized, but because of his health he could not. God spared hi three more days on this earth, and through his testimony a few other people came to Christ.
Ken says works do not maintain salvation. Then goes and says one can lose salvation if he loses faith (stops working)
that is just another way of saying works are required to maintain salvation.
Already discussed this with ken, We both agreed, if someone does not show any works, they probably has never been saved,
But ken does not stop here, He says one can have works for years, even decades, then lose faith and stop work. and that salvation is lost. Gone forever, unless he repents.
I disagree a true person of faith will show works. even if it is only 1 work. A person on a deathbed who receives Christ, and praised God. and lets the whole hospital know that God has saved his sinful self. and he will be in heaven and who stops worrying about death, but willingly accepts his fate, has shown a work.
He is a legalist preaching a different gospel. I will not cherry coat his false gospel and just say we have a disagreement, I will continue to preach 2 + 2 equals 4. no matter how many times Ken screams 2 + 2 = 5
He can be 95 % correct in his gospel. if the other 5 percent has changed the gospel from a gospel that what Paul taught, and what Ken teaches, it is another gospel. which is not a gospel at all. and to be anathema'd
I hate to be stern, But we as the body of Christ can not give satan any leeway, If the gospel is not 100 % gospel. we do not let the 95 % come in and say your ok, because you at least have 95% truth, the 5 % which is not truth is leading them straight to hell. ad anyone who listens to them will follow them to that destination no one wants to go.
Saul was sincere as a pharisee, he thought he was doing Gods will, In his mind, when he got to heaven, God would say welcome home son, You are my good and faith full servant.
Until Christ confronted him that day and said why are you persecuting me. And paul finally realised how wrong he was.
people like ken need to have a meeting like pau did with God. either through us confronting them, or by Christ himself knocking them off their horse, and forcing them to their knees, either way, We can not just say it is ok to believe the way you do, we are brothers in christ and will get to heaven anyway, Because we teach different gospels.
If this is ALL he was saying, we would have absolutely no argument. As I tried to show you before.
Every sunday I go to church, Every other Friday and or Thursday (once a week but on different nights each week) I either study behind or teach myself the sanctification of a child born of God, and the works which are a result of our faith in Christ. So if I judge what you just said as legalism, I would have to judge myself one.
We could. if they did not preach salvation will be lost if these works are not maintained. But they do not. in fact, we would not even be discussing it, We would be discussing how much we agree with the word of God. and trying to provoke each other to good works and studying the word to make ourselves ready for all satan can throw at us, Sadly we can not do this.
I know a man who was saved on his deathbed, And the demeanor in his heart and fear he had moments before. were gone, He showed works worthy of true faith, he even wanted to get baptized, but because of his health he could not. God spared hi three more days on this earth, and through his testimony a few other people came to Christ.
Ken says works do not maintain salvation. Then goes and says one can lose salvation if he loses faith (stops working)
that is just another way of saying works are required to maintain salvation.
Already discussed this with ken, We both agreed, if someone does not show any works, they probably has never been saved,
But ken does not stop here, He says one can have works for years, even decades, then lose faith and stop work. and that salvation is lost. Gone forever, unless he repents.
I disagree a true person of faith will show works. even if it is only 1 work. A person on a deathbed who receives Christ, and praised God. and lets the whole hospital know that God has saved his sinful self. and he will be in heaven and who stops worrying about death, but willingly accepts his fate, has shown a work.
He is a legalist preaching a different gospel. I will not cherry coat his false gospel and just say we have a disagreement, I will continue to preach 2 + 2 equals 4. no matter how many times Ken screams 2 + 2 = 5
He can be 95 % correct in his gospel. if the other 5 percent has changed the gospel from a gospel that what Paul taught, and what Ken teaches, it is another gospel. which is not a gospel at all. and to be anathema'd
I hate to be stern, But we as the body of Christ can not give satan any leeway, If the gospel is not 100 % gospel. we do not let the 95 % come in and say your ok, because you at least have 95% truth, the 5 % which is not truth is leading them straight to hell. ad anyone who listens to them will follow them to that destination no one wants to go.
Saul was sincere as a pharisee, he thought he was doing Gods will, In his mind, when he got to heaven, God would say welcome home son, You are my good and faith full servant.
Until Christ confronted him that day and said why are you persecuting me. And paul finally realised how wrong he was.
people like ken need to have a meeting like pau did with God. either through us confronting them, or by Christ himself knocking them off their horse, and forcing them to their knees, either way, We can not just say it is ok to believe the way you do, we are brothers in christ and will get to heaven anyway, Because we teach different gospels.
E
Honestly, a brain must be the hardest thing to grow!
I am the process of trying to expand mine, brain that is, and I WANT and NEED good and deep discussion
Can y'all please grow up and stop trying to bap each other on the head like that game at fairs where you try to hit the mole on the head with a bat as it pokes its little noggin out of a hole?
If anyone here is an expert on Romans, I have yet to hear it....I have studied that book and read that book and read about that book and I just learned something in there again not long ago.
You should be fighting for the gears in your brain locked in place...let's add some Holy Spirit oil and conversation and maybe unlock the stuck parts?
I am a pretty observant person, not perfect, not the world's bestest Bible scholar, but don't throw away a perfectly good thread on another attack and counter attack...sigh
I am the process of trying to expand mine, brain that is, and I WANT and NEED good and deep discussion
Can y'all please grow up and stop trying to bap each other on the head like that game at fairs where you try to hit the mole on the head with a bat as it pokes its little noggin out of a hole?
If anyone here is an expert on Romans, I have yet to hear it....I have studied that book and read that book and read about that book and I just learned something in there again not long ago.
You should be fighting for the gears in your brain locked in place...let's add some Holy Spirit oil and conversation and maybe unlock the stuck parts?
I am a pretty observant person, not perfect, not the world's bestest Bible scholar, but don't throw away a perfectly good thread on another attack and counter attack...sigh
You and I agree on the Gospel of Grace. I understand what you are saying, I just think KennethC places so much emphasis on the fruit of conversion that it nearly becomes one with the root of faith. That is the issue and you're right, that to do so is legalistic because it then makes a requirement of the fruit in order to be saved. There must be a distinction made, or else you make salvation a work. I feel weird defending KennethC, but its not like I am defending him as if he is right, but rather just clarifying his position so that we may properly address it for what it is.
I agree with you, I didn't go to the dark side, haha.
I am just trying to allow understanding to take place, and once understanding their position if its wrong we can then address it. That's all, nothing more. Bare with me, not that I am playing devil's advocate but I am trying my best to explain both positions so that all may be edified.
I agree with you, I didn't go to the dark side, haha.
I am just trying to allow understanding to take place, and once understanding their position if its wrong we can then address it. That's all, nothing more. Bare with me, not that I am playing devil's advocate but I am trying my best to explain both positions so that all may be edified.
Works by the power of God through faith brings forth good fruit= works of righteousness. A faith without works is dead as written, like a dead branch. If you are truly abiding in Christ you shall bring forth good fruit. If you do not bring forth good fruit (righteous works) then you will be cast forth like a dead branch and burned. Also if you are living in sin, you are not abiding in the Life of the vine, which means you are not abiding in Christ.
Jesus said in John 15:1-10 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.[SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[SUP]9 [/SUP]As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
Ok, some claim all Christians are sinners, and that they keep on sinning even though they have been saved. And even despite that disobedience and reoccurring sin they proclaim you still abide in Christ. This my friends is false, because you cannot remain in sin and in Christ at the same time.
Notice Jesus said in order to bear fruit one must abide in Him, that also means believing in and abiding in His words. And here is what it means to abide in Him…
1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
The seed mentioned there is Christ, but again to be in Christ is to 1 John 3:6 “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”
So the simple truth is in order to bear fruit we must abide in Christ, and to abide in Christ one must stop sinning.
Now if one is sinning are they truly in Christ? Not according to the Lords words above. Also we are given what happens if one in Him does not bear fruit in Jesus, as said in John 15:2 [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:” So anyone in him that does not bear fruit he takes away. And not only that we are told in verse 6 [SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Also we cannot bear fruit on our own except we abide in Him John 15:4 “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.” And again, to abide in Christ means you cannot abide in sin.
And if you remain in sin, then you truly don’t abide in Christ do you? And as Jesus said, those who do not abide in Him are cast forth as a branch, and then gathered and cast into the fire and burned.
Christ is not a vine of sin (minister of sin) Galatians 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Anyone who says you can abide in sin and also remain in Christ at the same time is a liar and a deceiver.
Jesus said in John 15:1-10 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.[SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[SUP]9 [/SUP]As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
Ok, some claim all Christians are sinners, and that they keep on sinning even though they have been saved. And even despite that disobedience and reoccurring sin they proclaim you still abide in Christ. This my friends is false, because you cannot remain in sin and in Christ at the same time.
Notice Jesus said in order to bear fruit one must abide in Him, that also means believing in and abiding in His words. And here is what it means to abide in Him…
1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
The seed mentioned there is Christ, but again to be in Christ is to 1 John 3:6 “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”
So the simple truth is in order to bear fruit we must abide in Christ, and to abide in Christ one must stop sinning.
Now if one is sinning are they truly in Christ? Not according to the Lords words above. Also we are given what happens if one in Him does not bear fruit in Jesus, as said in John 15:2 [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:” So anyone in him that does not bear fruit he takes away. And not only that we are told in verse 6 [SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Also we cannot bear fruit on our own except we abide in Him John 15:4 “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.” And again, to abide in Christ means you cannot abide in sin.
And if you remain in sin, then you truly don’t abide in Christ do you? And as Jesus said, those who do not abide in Him are cast forth as a branch, and then gathered and cast into the fire and burned.
Christ is not a vine of sin (minister of sin) Galatians 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Anyone who says you can abide in sin and also remain in Christ at the same time is a liar and a deceiver.
E
Your fine, I used to be Ken, So his line of reasoning and arguments and complaints were my own (only I never preach baptismal regeneration or believed in it) I never thought yuo were defending him, Just trying to show how we differed. at least thats what I got.
I agree with you, I didn't go to the dark side, haha. I am just trying to allow understanding to take place, and once understanding their position if its wrong we can then address it. That's all, nothing more. Bare with me, not that I am playing devil's advocate but I am trying my best to explain both positions so that all may be edified.
I am just trying to allow understanding to take place, and once understanding their position if its wrong we can then address it. That's all, nothing more. Bare with me, not that I am playing devil's advocate but I am trying my best to explain both positions so that all may be edified.
No prob bro.. This is a subject which must be said. I was going to open a thread on what legalism really was, The true definition, not the one that has been thrown around or what it looks like, but the definition (what the term means) Because I think that is what confuses people.
But figured I would wait a bit since you opened this one.
E
Jesus gave the definition of what it means to abide in him, I guess you missed it when I posted it.
John 6: Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed,and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
Again, as the author of this thread tried so kindly and politely to show. Your mixing eternal life (justification) and sanctification (bearing fruit)
You can not use passages which show God will stop bearing fruit in you and using you so you can be blessed. to prove one can lose justification (eternal life) when abiding in Christ for eternal life is based solely on feeding on the food which gives life, which is the words which the spirit gives through Christ. which one can feed on and never die, live forever, never hunger or thirst. has eternal life, Will be raised on the last day, and again, most importantly. will NEVER BE LOST.
Now you are not going to be one who calls jesus a liar are you?
So your perfect? If jesus said whoever feeds on him will live forever, and never die, that as long as he lives we abide in him and he in us. Then you either preach we will be sinless the moment we recieve this wonderful gift and many things Jesus spoke of in John 6. Or we are Gods children, who will (as any child) not obey our parent 100 %, but not be forsaken because we trusted self and not our father (as we are still learning to do this, this is an ongoing process. not an overnight process)
No, that is how we bear fruit. Not how we are saved, You can not mix sanctification with justification. Not the same context.
God said in hebrews, he HAS perfected FOREVER those who are being sanctified.
The seal of abiding in Christ (Justification) is forever, as long as Jesus lives, paid for by the cross
The work of sanctification (producing fruit) is an ongoing process. Everyone who is justified will produce some fruit. Not everyone will produce the same amount of fruit.
The same man who said if we as believers claim we have no sin, we have decieved ourselves and there is no truth in us?
You do not understand the law or what sin is, You are decieved my friend,
hm. So when God says
He who BEGIN a good work in you will CONTINUE that wok until the day of Christ, he is a liar?
You need to read the op. You are confused. and may learn something