Let's Take a Deeper Look at this Hyper Stuff

[ladylynn]

I have always found it intriguing that not only had the father been up there on that wall, probably every day, looking and waiting..... and then went running to his son (something Jewish elders never lower themselves to do).... but that the son had not really come to what we like to call "repentance". He just knew he would have a better deal if he could convince his father to hire him to work for him.... and he even began to deliver to his father, a planned and rehearsed speech to that effect.

The father ignored it all, and said "Welcome home!"

It does make me roll my eyes at how we humans are. I really thought there was some merit in how many tears I cried or how much I tried to make up for my stupidity to God. He is not impressed. But I sure thought He was for a long time.

The only thing that impressing the Father is how much we lean on the Son. How much we magnify what Jesus has done in our lives by putting us in right relationship with God by giving us HIS righteousness. God is interested in how His Son suffered for us.,not how much we feel we are suffering for us or God. He wants us to magnify what His Son did in our lives..

And yet even today., religion wants us to look at how "sincere" we are and how much "feeling" we can muster up to prove ourselves. GACK it is so truly ODIOUS because it is so carnal minded to think that way. It's truly a self righteous religious way of thinking because it puts the work of Jesus Christ next to our works. When our works have zero to do with any of it.

That verse about all our righteousnesses being as filthy rags comes to mind. And yet the Father still loves us stupid sheep. The Good Shepherd knows we are in need to be taught how to live and move and have our being.

 

[ladylynn]

Oops lost a bunch due to signal fail, will submit this anyway, but it may be moot, sorry.

Beautiful ladylynn.
She always puts it way better than I ever could, so I re-posted it here.

Just beautifully grace-filled.

Ah, yes, Magenta, but singular or plural aside, please don't stop there. Jesus said, 'But I have prayed for you, that your faith would not fail.'

Think of that! The King of glory praying for Peter, and us.
How can we fail with such a loving, powerful Savior that has us in His praying hands.

I'm about in tears, (fighting back because of where I'm at right now) but my goodness, here was Jesus about to be crucified for us, and He asked His friends to pray for Him, and in a sense, if we were there, He would have asked us to pray for Him. And they, WE, fell asleep, and often still do.

Yet HE prays for us!!!

He is just so amazing and good.
Oh, that He would break my heart to be even a tiny bit like Him,
to be so selfless and giving in love.
Even though the tears come,
I'm such a hard-hearted failure and a sinner, I shouldn't be here.
God bless you.

I know what you mean sis., That is why GRACE is so wonderful when we are given a personal revelation of how much He loves us. When we see in ourselves how utterly unworthy we are in the face of His goodness and love for us there is no place to turn but to feelings of what worms we are. But Jesus gave us this grace so we can stand in spite of our flesh. He gave us the GIFT of NO CONDEMNATION. He loves us so much He even took care of our learning process while we are here on earth.

It is at times very hard to see the vast comparison of how good He is and how bad we are. But to then be given a revelation that He has made us worthy by putting on us HIS righteousness., that is what actually shows us how to be instructed. Grace teaches us how to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., how to live soberly, righteously and Godly in this present world. We can't do it without the gift of the knowledge of grace and truth (unmerited unearned favor love from God IN Christ)

you are loved and accepted in the light of His sweetness., holiness., goodness, kindness, forbearance and gracefulness. Even though you see your utter unworthiness He wants you to see your made worthy by His grace and He wants you to accept the gift of no condemnation and fully reach out to Him knowing His arms are fully open in acceptance.

That is the only way I can get up in the morning and go out into the day. He is there for me because His grace is a gift. I'm loved because of Jesus. And then to know it pleases God when we accept to being loved this way!!!! WHAT!!!??? This pleases God!! For us to trust Him and His love for us.

Rivers of living water!!!!!!

 

[JGIG]

God bless you JGIG., (wouldn't let me give you a rep.) Your writing is really good. And the words
Godly discipline is training for the future, not punishment for our past.

That is so very wise. There are many Christians who think God is going to "take us to the woodshed" But I've since learned Our Good Shepherd never beats the sheep with that rod and staff. Reading Psalm 23 it says how the rod and the staff they comfort. The Good Shepherd is not behind the sheep driving them with His rod and staff like a bunch of horses or cattle. No no. Jesus "leads" the sheep. He goes before the sheep. NEVER NEVER does He drive the sheep. We are the sheep of His pasture and He tenderly looks after us.

JP said in one of his messages about how people have misrepresented our Good Shepherd. Psalms 23 doesn't say "The Lord is my Shepherd., He breaketh my legs"

But many believers find comfort in the idea they are going to the wood shed to get wacked with the rod. NOT ME. Am not interested in getting spanked in the wood shed or anywhere. The natural consequences of sin are enough to make us miserable. The Lord doesn't have to add to the burden. And neither do believers for that matter. Yet many are of a different mind set. I've since changed and no longer see the Good Shepherd driving and swatting me.

I heard a preacher say that some Christians believe that the Good Shepherd breaks the legs of the sheep. (!!!) For many reasons a good shepherd would never do that to one of his sheep. For one thing the sheep need to be able to walk and do all the things a sheep need to do to survive. How could a shepherd do his job for all the other sheep if he was carrying a sheep with broken legs and taking the sheep to get water and food and to get to the bathroom etc etc... Only hireling shepherds would break the legs of the sheep and then sell them for lamb chops. Those shepherds have no love or concern for the sheep.

Our Good Shepherd Jesus is nothing like anyone we have ever met. His grace is what teaches us and that kind of learning is not understood by the natural mans way of thinking. We Christians need a revelation of the grace of God IN Jesus.

Will check out your link here JGIG. Thanks so much for your wise helpful words as always. Love you sis and you are deeply appreciated.

Thanks - as I told Ben, the quote is due to the teaching linked to by Andrew Farley, where he shows how Godly discipline is training for the future, not punishment for our past.

I hope you enjoy the audio teaching - it's really good !

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

Thanks - as I told Ben, the quote is due to the teaching linked to by Andrew Farley, where he shows how Godly discipline is training for the future, not punishment for our past.

I hope you enjoy the audio teaching - it's really good !

-JGIG

I listened to the teaching on Hebrews 12 and discipline and I liked it. it answered a lot of the religious teachings we have had in some of our church upbringings.

Thanks for the link.

 

[JGIG]

Did Jesus take all of the judgement rightfully due us for our sins, or not?.

Show me this.

Verse?

Link?

"When He had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, He bowed His head and gave up His spirit." John 19:30

​

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (from Rom. 5)
​

There is also the concept of propitiation in the Scriptures, which carries within its meaning the satisfaction of God's wrath:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

Rom 3:25[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Whom [SUP]G3739[/SUP] God [SUP]G2316[/SUP] hath set forth [SUP]G4388[/SUP] to be a propitiation [SUP]G2435[/SUP] through [SUP]G1223[/SUP] faith [SUP]G4102[/SUP] in [SUP]G1722[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP]blood, [SUP]G129[/SUP] to [SUP]G1519[/SUP] declare [SUP]G1732[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP] righteousness [SUP]G1343[/SUP]for [SUP]G1223[/SUP] the remission [SUP]G3929[/SUP] of sins [SUP]G265[/SUP] that are past, [SUP]G4266[/SUP]through [SUP]G1722[/SUP] the forbearance [SUP]G463[/SUP] of God; [SUP]G2316[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]

1Jo 2:2[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]And [SUP]G2532[/SUP] he [SUP]G846[/SUP] is [SUP]G2076[/SUP] the propitiation [SUP]G2434[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] our [SUP]G2257[/SUP]sins: [SUP]G266[/SUP] and [SUP]G1161[/SUP] not [SUP]G3756[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] ours [SUP]G2251[/SUP] only, [SUP]G3440[/SUP] but [SUP]G235[/SUP]also [SUP]G2532[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] the sins of the whole [SUP]G3650[/SUP] world. [SUP]G2889[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

1Jo 4:10[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Herein [SUP]G1722[/SUP] [SUP]G5129[/SUP] is [SUP]G2076[/SUP] love, [SUP]G26[/SUP] not [SUP]G3754[/SUP] that [SUP]G3756[/SUP] we [SUP]G2249[/SUP]loved [SUP]G25[/SUP] God, [SUP]G2316[/SUP] but [SUP]G235[/SUP] that [SUP]G3754[/SUP] he [SUP]G846[/SUP] loved [SUP]G25[/SUP] us, [SUP]G2248[/SUP]and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] sent [SUP]G649[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP] Son [SUP]G5207[/SUP] to be the propitiation [SUP]G2434[/SUP]for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] our [SUP]G2257[/SUP] sins. [SUP]G266[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


​

propitiation G2434 - hilasmos​

1. an appeasing, propitiating​

2. the means of appeasing, a propitiation​

One can look at the definitions and look up articles that define propitiation:

"The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them."^[1]^ Propitiation is that "by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners."^[2]^ (source)​

Whether one agrees with the concept of Jesus taking all of God's wrath for our sins, one cannot argue with the fact that complete forgiveness for all sin HAD to occur at the Cross, just as the letter to the Hebrews tells us in chapter 10.

The only way for more forgiveness to be given is if more blood is shed; that's not going to happen.

So if all sin is forgiven (only needing to be received), then it only makes sense that if you've received that forgiveness, there is no wrath (punishment) from God, yes?

Now if you drive drunk and kill/injure yourself and/or someone else, is that God's wrath for your sinful action? If you cheat on your spouse and they leave you and your children are taken from you, is that God's judgement for your sins? If you rob a bank and get caught and go to jail, is that God pouring out His wrath on you?

No, those are earthly consequences for your choices.

Those are some extreme examples, but "we all stumble in many ways" (see James 3:2). Some of us stumble in pride, unforgiveness, arrogance, laziness, etc. . . . the list of sinful behavior is loooong. And there are consequences for sinning - in this life - for the believer. But *judgement* and God's *wrath* for all sinning was meted out at the Cross.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus, He Who was without sin, became sin, and died on your behalf (see 2 Cor. 5:21). Judgement satisfied.

So many believers think that God is "gettin' 'em" for their sins, when it's really just the natural consequences for their sins that are happening. That's why Paul says in his letter to the Corinthians that all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial. He also tells them to examine themselves to see if they are truly in the faith. Why? Because when we as believers are in Christ, we don't want to sin - it goes contrary to our New Creation nature and we're miserable when we sin! If you're wanting to sin, perhaps you are not truly in Christ.

With that in mind, Paul also tells us in his second letter to the Corinthians that for those who are in Christ, God is not counting their sins against them, and in Romans, he also tells us that there is NO condemnation (judgement) for those who are in Christ.

Jesus said,

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (from Jn. 3)​

As for eternal consequences for those who are in Christ who sin - there are none, because Christ, who took all the punishment for our sins at the Cross, ever lives to intercede for us and has therefore saved us completely (see Hebrews 7:25). His Blood shed at the Cross was the perfect, final sacrifice once, for all time, for all sins, and He's not coming back again to bleed more!

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all;but the life he lives, he lives to God. (from Rom. 6)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. (from 1 Pet. 3)

24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. (from Heb. 9)
​

All of this ties very much into the OP of this thread, because so many folks focus on what they (or more often, what they think others) are doing/not doing sin-wise, and not looking at what Christ did on our behalf as the remedy for sin and how we are no longer slaves to sin.

They are quick to label Grace as a license to sin, when Grace is actually the remedy for sinning, because Grace is what teaches us to say no to ungodliness and to live upright lives (see Titus 2). God doesn't threaten us with punishment (see 1 Jn. 4) when we sin, but beckons us to come to his throne of Grace (not throne of judgement):

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (from Heb. 4)​

Grasping the vast scope of God's Mercy and Grace is so difficult for us - it all seems so unfair - and it IS! In our favor. That's why the paradox of 'striving to enter into His rest' (see Heb. 4). Our relationship and standing with God is not based on what we do, but on what Christ has already done - and we enter in by faith. Ahhhhh . . . rest, security, the grace to learn and grow as we learn to say no to ungodliness and live upright lives . . . that is Grace.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (from Jn. 1)​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The earthly family is an example of the heavenly.

I rather think that God is the example for our earthly families . . .

God uses this analogy.

Nothing new,nothing perverted,no boggey man.

I agree - when the Scriptures talk about how a father should be toward his children it says - 'Do not exasperate them', 'if you ask for bread will your father give you a stone', etc.

Yet you're the one who came out with this, not us:

Originally Posted by popeye

Anyone that becomes a believer,and is not taught those things in the first year of conversion needs to fire their pastor.

What,pray tell,do you do when you receive a good whipping from God?​

To which I replied, "God doesn't beat His children."

Aparently, we actually agree on that? I'm not sure, as you've given two separate impressions here.

So what do you guys do?

You take an evil perverted child beater as your template.

No, actually, I was saying that God does not beat His children.

I hope you will (I asked you please please please ), if you haven't already, listen to the following audio. It really does cover so very well all this: Church Without Religion | By His Stripes Or Ours

Well,I can take a little better picture of God than that.

So,you guys think that there is no such thing as disciple,right?

God never has and never will discipline a believer.

Discipline, yes; punish, no.

You think when a child does wrong,and say,steals money out of momma's purse,or takes a candy bar from the store,any CORRECTION would be either beating him senseless,or breaking his legs.

Disciple,correction,JUDGEMENT,is all very normal,w
Very necessary family health.

We are a family of nine. Dad, mom (me), and SEVEN children. I'm a bit familiar with family discipline. And Grace. and Law. What makes children thrive and grow and what breeds discouragement and shame. Grace combined with lots of teaching/guidance along with letting children suffer the consequences of their actions is definitely more effective and fruitful than lots of rules and punishment for breaking those rules. Our oldest is nearly 20, our youngest is 7, and ALL of them love Jesus and each other, and US . They're all really good, sweet kids who are bearing the Fruit of the Spirit in their lives.

That is WHY,when we sin,(stray off course),and refuse correction,we end up in the perfect storm,because one of two things will happen. Either God will judge you,(as in Corinthians,Miriam,David),or even worse,God will let you off the hook due to your luke warm nothing walk.

This WHY the word says " TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN,MUCH Is REQUIRED."

"I WOULD THAT MOT ALL BE TEACHERS,THEY ARE HELD TO A STRICTER JUDGEMENT"

Old Testament judgement cannot be equated with New Testament discipline.

I agree - to whom much is given, much is required. That's why as those in Christ, whose sins have all been forgiven, we are miserable when we sin. We don't want to sin. But when we do, we know that we can come to God's throne of Grace, not that we must sit under a throne of judgement (see Heb. 4).

-JGIG

 

[popeye]

Amazing how over and over the discipline of the father that is a biblical fact,when brought up is twisted into beating someone into a bloody mess and thrown into intensive care for a year,then topped off with God breaking their legs for good measure.

Then,me being so perverted for daring to have the audacity to post something so perverted and outlandish is given teaching after teaching with the modified version of a gewey palatable version of a "kinda-sorta-well maybe a stern look- but a reassuring wink added- so as not to offend the above reproach saint", version of discipline.

As if a forced acknowledgement of no brainer verses,is reluctantly pasted back into the before oblivious members bible.

Sorry to interrupt ya'lls cyber hi five miscaracterization of what I brought forward.

 

[ladylynn]

​

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (from Rom. 5)
​

There is also the concept of propitiation in the Scriptures, which carries within its meaning the satisfaction of God's wrath:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

Rom 3:25[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Whom [SUP]G3739[/SUP] God [SUP]G2316[/SUP] hath set forth [SUP]G4388[/SUP] to be a propitiation [SUP]G2435[/SUP] through [SUP]G1223[/SUP] faith [SUP]G4102[/SUP] in [SUP]G1722[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP]blood, [SUP]G129[/SUP] to [SUP]G1519[/SUP] declare [SUP]G1732[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP] righteousness [SUP]G1343[/SUP]for [SUP]G1223[/SUP] the remission [SUP]G3929[/SUP] of sins [SUP]G265[/SUP] that are past, [SUP]G4266[/SUP]through [SUP]G1722[/SUP] the forbearance [SUP]G463[/SUP] of God; [SUP]G2316[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]

1Jo 2:2[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]And [SUP]G2532[/SUP] he [SUP]G846[/SUP] is [SUP]G2076[/SUP] the propitiation [SUP]G2434[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] our [SUP]G2257[/SUP]sins: [SUP]G266[/SUP] and [SUP]G1161[/SUP] not [SUP]G3756[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] ours [SUP]G2251[/SUP] only, [SUP]G3440[/SUP] but [SUP]G235[/SUP]also [SUP]G2532[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] the sins of the whole [SUP]G3650[/SUP] world. [SUP]G2889[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

1Jo 4:10[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Herein [SUP]G1722[/SUP] [SUP]G5129[/SUP] is [SUP]G2076[/SUP] love, [SUP]G26[/SUP] not [SUP]G3754[/SUP] that [SUP]G3756[/SUP] we [SUP]G2249[/SUP]loved [SUP]G25[/SUP] God, [SUP]G2316[/SUP] but [SUP]G235[/SUP] that [SUP]G3754[/SUP] he [SUP]G846[/SUP] loved [SUP]G25[/SUP] us, [SUP]G2248[/SUP]and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] sent [SUP]G649[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP] Son [SUP]G5207[/SUP] to be the propitiation [SUP]G2434[/SUP]for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] our [SUP]G2257[/SUP] sins. [SUP]G266[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


​

propitiation G2434 - hilasmos​

1. an appeasing, propitiating​

2. the means of appeasing, a propitiation​

One can look at the definitions and look up articles that define propitiation:

"The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them."^[1]^ Propitiation is that "by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners."^[2]^ (source)​

Whether one agrees with the concept of Jesus taking all of God's wrath for our sins, one cannot argue with the fact that complete forgiveness for all sin HAD to occur at the Cross, just as the letter to the Hebrews tells us in chapter 10.

The only way for more forgiveness to be given is if more blood is shed; that's not going to happen.

So if all sin is forgiven (only needing to be received), then it only makes sense that if you've received that forgiveness, there is no wrath (punishment) from God, yes?

Now if you drive drunk and kill/injure yourself and/or someone else, is that God's wrath for your sinful action? If you cheat on your spouse and they leave you and your children are taken from you, is that God's judgement for your sins? If you rob a bank and get caught and go to jail, is that God pouring out His wrath on you?

No, those are earthly consequences for your choices.

Those are some extreme examples, but "we all stumble in many ways" (see James 3:2). Some of us stumble in pride, unforgiveness, arrogance, laziness, etc. . . . the list of sinful behavior is loooong. And there are consequences for sinning - in this life - for the believer. But *judgement* and God's *wrath* for all sinning was meted out at the Cross.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus, He Who was without sin, became sin, and died on your behalf (see 2 Cor. 5:21). Judgement satisfied.

So many believers think that God is "gettin' 'em" for their sins, when it's really just the natural consequences for their sins that are happening. That's why Paul says in his letter to the Corinthians that all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial. He also tells them to examine themselves to see if they are truly in the faith. Why? Because when we as believers are in Christ, we don't want to sin - it goes contrary to our New Creation nature and we're miserable when we sin! If you're wanting to sin, perhaps you are not truly in Christ.

With that in mind, Paul also tells us in his second letter to the Corinthians that for those who are in Christ, God is not counting their sins against them, and in Romans, he also tells us that there is NO condemnation (judgement) for those who are in Christ.

Jesus said,

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (from Jn. 3)​

As for eternal consequences for those who are in Christ who sin - there are none, because Christ, who took all the punishment for our sins at the Cross, ever lives to intercede for us and has therefore saved us completely (see Hebrews 7:25). His Blood shed at the Cross was the perfect, final sacrifice once, for all time, for all sins, and He's not coming back again to bleed more!

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all;but the life he lives, he lives to God. (from Rom. 6)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. (from 1 Pet. 3)

24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. (from Heb. 9)
​

All of this ties very much into the OP of this thread, because so many folks focus on what they (or more often, what they think others) are doing/not doing sin-wise, and not looking at what Christ did on our behalf as the remedy for sin and how we are no longer slaves to sin.

They are quick to label Grace as a license to sin, when Grace is actually the remedy for sinning, because Grace is what teaches us to say no to ungodliness and to live upright lives (see Titus 2). God doesn't threaten us with punishment (see 1 Jn. 4) when we sin, but beckons us to come to his throne of Grace (not throne of judgement):

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (from Heb. 4)​

Grasping the vast scope of God's Mercy and Grace is so difficult for us - it all seems so unfair - and it IS! In our favor. That's why the paradox of 'striving to enter into His rest' (see Heb. 4). Our relationship and standing with God is not based on what we do, but on what Christ has already done - and we enter in by faith. Ahhhhh . . . rest, security, the grace to learn and grow as we learn to say no to ungodliness and live upright lives . . . that is Grace.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (from Jn. 1)​

-JGIG

Thank you for this post JGIG. I'm working the overnight shift and able to take time to read this. Such Holy Spirit filled words. Grace is such a glorious thing to see enacted in our lives. It's truly a revelation that the Spirit gives.,striving to enter into His rest. I did not know about this grace for most of my Christian life. Grace changes everything. We can't look at ourselves the same because it doesn't matter what we think, He will love us because He is God and He has chosen to. His love is a total game changer.

Because of Jesus., God is 100% righteous and holy to not judge us anymore. Although He has every right to, He has decided His love for us goes beyond our unworthiness and His Son paid for the pure justice and holiness standard because we could not. And it was His will that Jesus would be bruised.

From a human standpoint this just makes no sense. But according to the council of God., it stands if we understand it or not. And then since there comes a time in each believers life (when we step out and let the Spirit show us) since it is then we really want to know., He will give us the revelation of grace. Then we get to live in His grace and be aware of it all the time. To lean on it and to allow it to teach us that God will love us IN Christ without fail.

Why does He care so much about us???? I can't imagine Him not loving me now that I know and have been daily counting on it and making my mind and heart mold to it by faith. What would we do without the gift of Jesus righteousness? How could we survive if we didn't really know and count on God loving us so much., He gave His only Son.

Knowing He loves us beyond our reasoning skills is yet another spiritual truth. That is when I began to believe and speak in tongues. The revelation of grace given answered the speaking in tongues question. There is so much about Him we do not know and have to be willing to trust and step out in faith for. And He will always lead us properly. He Who keeps us neither slumbers nor sleeps.

 

[Willie-T]

​

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (from Rom. 5)
​

There is also the concept of propitiation in the Scriptures, which carries within its meaning the satisfaction of God's wrath:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

Rom 3:25[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Whom [SUP]G3739[/SUP] God [SUP]G2316[/SUP] hath set forth [SUP]G4388[/SUP] to be a propitiation [SUP]G2435[/SUP] through [SUP]G1223[/SUP] faith [SUP]G4102[/SUP] in [SUP]G1722[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP]blood, [SUP]G129[/SUP] to [SUP]G1519[/SUP] declare [SUP]G1732[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP] righteousness [SUP]G1343[/SUP]for [SUP]G1223[/SUP] the remission [SUP]G3929[/SUP] of sins [SUP]G265[/SUP] that are past, [SUP]G4266[/SUP]through [SUP]G1722[/SUP] the forbearance [SUP]G463[/SUP] of God; [SUP]G2316[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]

1Jo 2:2[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]And [SUP]G2532[/SUP] he [SUP]G846[/SUP] is [SUP]G2076[/SUP] the propitiation [SUP]G2434[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] our [SUP]G2257[/SUP]sins: [SUP]G266[/SUP] and [SUP]G1161[/SUP] not [SUP]G3756[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] ours [SUP]G2251[/SUP] only, [SUP]G3440[/SUP] but [SUP]G235[/SUP]also [SUP]G2532[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] the sins of the whole [SUP]G3650[/SUP] world. [SUP]G2889[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

1Jo 4:10[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Herein [SUP]G1722[/SUP] [SUP]G5129[/SUP] is [SUP]G2076[/SUP] love, [SUP]G26[/SUP] not [SUP]G3754[/SUP] that [SUP]G3756[/SUP] we [SUP]G2249[/SUP]loved [SUP]G25[/SUP] God, [SUP]G2316[/SUP] but [SUP]G235[/SUP] that [SUP]G3754[/SUP] he [SUP]G846[/SUP] loved [SUP]G25[/SUP] us, [SUP]G2248[/SUP]and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] sent [SUP]G649[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP] Son [SUP]G5207[/SUP] to be the propitiation [SUP]G2434[/SUP]for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] our [SUP]G2257[/SUP] sins. [SUP]G266[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


​

propitiation G2434 - hilasmos​

[FONT=&]1. an appeasing, propitiating[/FONT]​

2. the means of appeasing, a propitiation​

One can look at the definitions and look up articles that define propitiation:

"The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them."^[1]^ Propitiation is that "by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners."^[2]^ (source)​

Whether one agrees with the concept of Jesus taking all of God's wrath for our sins, one cannot argue with the fact that complete forgiveness for all sin HAD to occur at the Cross, just as the letter to the Hebrews tells us in chapter 10.

The only way for more forgiveness to be given is if more blood is shed; that's not going to happen.

So if all sin is forgiven (only needing to be received), then it only makes sense that if you've received that forgiveness, there is no wrath (punishment) from God, yes?

Now if you drive drunk and kill/injure yourself and/or someone else, is that God's wrath for your sinful action? If you cheat on your spouse and they leave you and your children are taken from you, is that God's judgement for your sins? If you rob a bank and get caught and go to jail, is that God pouring out His wrath on you?

No, those are earthly consequences for your choices.

Those are some extreme examples, but "we all stumble in many ways" (see James 3:2). Some of us stumble in pride, unforgiveness, arrogance, laziness, etc. . . . the list of sinful behavior is loooong. And there are consequences for sinning - in this life - for the believer. But *judgement* and God's *wrath* for all sinning was meted out at the Cross.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus, He Who was without sin, became sin, and died on your behalf (see 2 Cor. 5:21). Judgement satisfied.

So many believers think that God is "gettin' 'em" for their sins, when it's really just the natural consequences for their sins that are happening. That's why Paul says in his letter to the Corinthians that all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial. He also tells them to examine themselves to see if they are truly in the faith. Why? Because when we as believers are in Christ, we don't want to sin - it goes contrary to our New Creation nature and we're miserable when we sin! If you're wanting to sin, perhaps you are not truly in Christ.

With that in mind, Paul also tells us in his second letter to the Corinthians that for those who are in Christ, God is not counting their sins against them, and in Romans, he also tells us that there is NO condemnation (judgement) for those who are in Christ.

Jesus said,

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (from Jn. 3)​

As for eternal consequences for those who are in Christ who sin - there are none, because Christ, who took all the punishment for our sins at the Cross, ever lives to intercede for us and has therefore saved us completely (see Hebrews 7:25). His Blood shed at the Cross was the perfect, final sacrifice once, for all time, for all sins, and He's not coming back again to bleed more!

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all;but the life he lives, he lives to God. (from Rom. 6)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. (from 1 Pet. 3)

24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. (from Heb. 9)
​

All of this ties very much into the OP of this thread, because so many folks focus on what they (or more often, what they think others) are doing/not doing sin-wise, and not looking at what Christ did on our behalf as the remedy for sin and how we are no longer slaves to sin.

They are quick to label Grace as a license to sin, when Grace is actually the remedy for sinning, because Grace is what teaches us to say no to ungodliness and to live upright lives (see Titus 2). God doesn't threaten us with punishment (see 1 Jn. 4) when we sin, but beckons us to come to his throne of Grace (not throne of judgement):

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (from Heb. 4)​

Grasping the vast scope of God's Mercy and Grace is so difficult for us - it all seems so unfair - and it IS! In our favor. That's why the paradox of 'striving to enter into His rest' (see Heb. 4). Our relationship and standing with God is not based on what we do, but on what Christ has already done - and we enter in by faith. Ahhhhh . . . rest, security, the grace to learn and grow as we learn to say no to ungodliness and live upright lives . . . that is Grace.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (from Jn. 1)​

-JGIG

It will always be more "expiation" in my eyes.

 

[Willie-T]

​

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (from Rom. 5)
​

There is also the concept of propitiation in the Scriptures, which carries within its meaning the satisfaction of God's wrath:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

Rom 3:25[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Whom [SUP]G3739[/SUP] God [SUP]G2316[/SUP] hath set forth [SUP]G4388[/SUP] to be a propitiation [SUP]G2435[/SUP] through [SUP]G1223[/SUP] faith [SUP]G4102[/SUP] in [SUP]G1722[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP]blood, [SUP]G129[/SUP] to [SUP]G1519[/SUP] declare [SUP]G1732[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP] righteousness [SUP]G1343[/SUP]for [SUP]G1223[/SUP] the remission [SUP]G3929[/SUP] of sins [SUP]G265[/SUP] that are past, [SUP]G4266[/SUP]through [SUP]G1722[/SUP] the forbearance [SUP]G463[/SUP] of God; [SUP]G2316[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]

1Jo 2:2[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]And [SUP]G2532[/SUP] he [SUP]G846[/SUP] is [SUP]G2076[/SUP] the propitiation [SUP]G2434[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] our [SUP]G2257[/SUP]sins: [SUP]G266[/SUP] and [SUP]G1161[/SUP] not [SUP]G3756[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] ours [SUP]G2251[/SUP] only, [SUP]G3440[/SUP] but [SUP]G235[/SUP]also [SUP]G2532[/SUP] for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] the sins of the whole [SUP]G3650[/SUP] world. [SUP]G2889[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]

1Jo 4:10[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Herein [SUP]G1722[/SUP] [SUP]G5129[/SUP] is [SUP]G2076[/SUP] love, [SUP]G26[/SUP] not [SUP]G3754[/SUP] that [SUP]G3756[/SUP] we [SUP]G2249[/SUP]loved [SUP]G25[/SUP] God, [SUP]G2316[/SUP] but [SUP]G235[/SUP] that [SUP]G3754[/SUP] he [SUP]G846[/SUP] loved [SUP]G25[/SUP] us, [SUP]G2248[/SUP]and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] sent [SUP]G649[/SUP] his [SUP]G846[/SUP] Son [SUP]G5207[/SUP] to be the propitiation [SUP]G2434[/SUP]for [SUP]G4012[/SUP] our [SUP]G2257[/SUP] sins. [SUP]G266[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


​

propitiation G2434 - hilasmos​

[FONT=&]1. an appeasing, propitiating[/FONT]​

2. the means of appeasing, a propitiation​

One can look at the definitions and look up articles that define propitiation:

"The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them."^[1]^ Propitiation is that "by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners."^[2]^ (source)​

Whether one agrees with the concept of Jesus taking all of God's wrath for our sins, one cannot argue with the fact that complete forgiveness for all sin HAD to occur at the Cross, just as the letter to the Hebrews tells us in chapter 10.

The only way for more forgiveness to be given is if more blood is shed; that's not going to happen.

So if all sin is forgiven (only needing to be received), then it only makes sense that if you've received that forgiveness, there is no wrath (punishment) from God, yes?

Now if you drive drunk and kill/injure yourself and/or someone else, is that God's wrath for your sinful action? If you cheat on your spouse and they leave you and your children are taken from you, is that God's judgement for your sins? If you rob a bank and get caught and go to jail, is that God pouring out His wrath on you?

No, those are earthly consequences for your choices.

Those are some extreme examples, but "we all stumble in many ways" (see James 3:2). Some of us stumble in pride, unforgiveness, arrogance, laziness, etc. . . . the list of sinful behavior is loooong. And there are consequences for sinning - in this life - for the believer. But *judgement* and God's *wrath* for all sinning was meted out at the Cross.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus, He Who was without sin, became sin, and died on your behalf (see 2 Cor. 5:21). Judgement satisfied.

So many believers think that God is "gettin' 'em" for their sins, when it's really just the natural consequences for their sins that are happening. That's why Paul says in his letter to the Corinthians that all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial. He also tells them to examine themselves to see if they are truly in the faith. Why? Because when we as believers are in Christ, we don't want to sin - it goes contrary to our New Creation nature and we're miserable when we sin! If you're wanting to sin, perhaps you are not truly in Christ.

With that in mind, Paul also tells us in his second letter to the Corinthians that for those who are in Christ, God is not counting their sins against them, and in Romans, he also tells us that there is NO condemnation (judgement) for those who are in Christ.

Jesus said,

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (from Jn. 3)​

As for eternal consequences for those who are in Christ who sin - there are none, because Christ, who took all the punishment for our sins at the Cross, ever lives to intercede for us and has therefore saved us completely (see Hebrews 7:25). His Blood shed at the Cross was the perfect, final sacrifice once, for all time, for all sins, and He's not coming back again to bleed more!

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all;but the life he lives, he lives to God. (from Rom. 6)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. (from 1 Pet. 3)

24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. (from Heb. 9)
​

All of this ties very much into the OP of this thread, because so many folks focus on what they (or more often, what they think others) are doing/not doing sin-wise, and not looking at what Christ did on our behalf as the remedy for sin and how we are no longer slaves to sin.

They are quick to label Grace as a license to sin, when Grace is actually the remedy for sinning, because Grace is what teaches us to say no to ungodliness and to live upright lives (see Titus 2). God doesn't threaten us with punishment (see 1 Jn. 4) when we sin, but beckons us to come to his throne of Grace (not throne of judgement):

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (from Heb. 4)​

Grasping the vast scope of God's Mercy and Grace is so difficult for us - it all seems so unfair - and it IS! In our favor. That's why the paradox of 'striving to enter into His rest' (see Heb. 4). Our relationship and standing with God is not based on what we do, but on what Christ has already done - and we enter in by faith. Ahhhhh . . . rest, security, the grace to learn and grow as we learn to say no to ungodliness and live upright lives . . . that is Grace.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (from Jn. 1)​

-JGIG

It will always be more "expiation" in my eyes.