Lets talk about the bible shall we?

[Joidevivre]

I agree with Angela in the sense that talking about "experience" is not really helpful to a lot of people. People who don't have experiences will feel something is missing and maybe it is somehow their fault. Those who do experience the Word in its different manifestations will usually not share personal things. They will only encourage you to have faith in the Word and gain your own experiences.

It is better not to put the attention on yourself - only on the Word because that is what people need to have faith in. Not in what you have had. Even the letters Paul wrote kept stressing this - that he would not boast in his experiences. He wanted to keep the focus off of him.

I have had many experiences, but choose to only mention Christ. And there is a wonderful "simplicity in Christ" that is ignored with those who want to show off their own intellect or experiences. The focus must be kept on Him. Not on ourselves.

Yes, you will hear many disagreements and interpretations - but you can choose to ignore most of what is said unless it is the simple truth and only glorifies Christ's work on the cross. Keep to that. Paul did in His letters. Read them again and you will see it isn't difficult to understand. He said "I only preach Christ and Him crucified". In addition to that, he taught us how to live.

I believe you get the love part, but the testimony you or anyone should give should be only about Him. Not about things that would be "supernatural experiences" or as others have done, their picking apart simple truths to make them more complicated and show their superiority in wisdom.

Christ is the final word - and faith is what we need to have. Loving others is only a fruit of our surrendering to Christ, abiding in Him and allowing the Holy Spirit to love through us. Surrendering to Christ is what is difficult. But that is another teaching...

 

[Blain]

I agree with Angela in the sense that talking about "experience" is not really helpful to a lot of people. People who don't have experiences will feel something is missing and maybe it is somehow their fault. Those who do experience the Word in its different manifestations will usually not share personal things. They will only encourage you to have faith in the Word and gain your own experiences.

It is better not to put the attention on yourself - only on the Word because that is what people need to have faith in. Not in what you have had. Even the letters Paul wrote kept stressing this - that he would not boast in his experiences. He wanted to keep the focus off of him.

I have had many experiences, but choose to only mention Christ. And there is a wonderful "simplicity in Christ" that is ignored with those who want to show off their own intellect or experiences. The focus must be kept on Him. Not on ourselves.

Yes, you will hear many disagreements and interpretations - but you can choose to ignore most of what is said unless it is the simple truth and only glorifies Christ's work on the cross. Keep to that. Paul did in His letters. Read them again and you will see it isn't difficult to understand. He said "I only preach Christ and Him crucified". In addition to that, he taught us how to live.

I believe you get the love part, but the testimony you or anyone should give should be only about Him. Not about things that would be "supernatural experiences" or as others have done, their picking apart simple truths to make them more complicated and show their superiority in wisdom.

Christ is the final word - and faith is what we need to have. Loving others is only a fruit of our surrendering to Christ, abiding in Him and allowing the Holy Spirit to love through us. Surrendering to Christ is what is difficult. But that is another teaching...

I agree that it should be about him not us but telling of experiences if not bad thing in fact the telling of experiences have helped many ppl in many ways. a lot of times those experiences told are God's way of speaking to someone.
but anyways back to the subject we were talking about what did you think about what I said? If the holy spirit is what teaches us the truth then what is going on with how so many different Christians have so many different interpretations? it just seems like if we really do have the holy spirit then shouldn't we be able to interpret the bible correctly? just from the fact that even I sometimes get the wrong interpretation from scripture and I know i have the holy spirit I think that we all get scripture wrong sometimes and that the bible isn't as easy to understand as some think.

 

[AbbeyJoy]

Some people get obsessed over the bible instead of allowing God to teach them about the bible.
There was a quote about it were we get so much into the book we forget the creator and author of the book.

 

[JamesMcClay]

The bible is only the Word of God when you are truly led by the Spirit of God. Satan OFTEn uses the scriptures to his own advantage to those Christians who will not truly seek Him, but rely on doctrines, commentaries and their own "intellect" to interpret the bible.

 

[Joidevivre]

If the holy spirit is what teaches us the truth then what is going on with how so many different Christians have so many different interpretations? it just seems like if we really do have the holy spirit then shouldn't we be able to interpret the bible correctly? just from the fact that even I sometimes get the wrong interpretation from scripture and I know i have the holy spirit I think that we all get scripture wrong sometimes and that the bible isn't as easy to understand as some think.

I have always had the Holy Spirit teaching me, and yet because over the years I'm growing in the Lord, He keeps revealing new perspectives on His word all the time - sometimes I've been led to see it differently than 10 years before. Remember we "all see as in a glass darkly". In other words, we don't see clearly all the mysteries, and because there is that shadow in the glass, it is a challenge to a lot of people, and leads to debates. However, the basics never change about Jesus and the work of the cross. And the message of grace. Most of the rest really isn't all that important to our walk with the Lord and our interaction with others.

We will never be absolute in our interpretation of truth, and that is why there are so many doctrines. I have always believed that what I need to know for wherever I am in life the Holy Spirit will amplify to me. It is what I NEED TO KNOW. Not things to appeal to my wish for more knowledge. Knowledge is never the end in and of itself. It is only the means to a deeper understanding and relationship with Christ and each other.

All other knowledge is what leads to endless debates. A waste of time, and does not further the heart of the gospel message. The pursuit of knowledge can also take the time away from time spent in worshiping and intercession for others. It is impersonal - and the whole of Christian experience is based on intimacy - time with the Lord and time spent on behalf of others.

 

[4enlightment]

The bible, one of the most known and yet misunderstood book in history. What is the bible to most people? to many unbelievers its a book that collects dust. what is the bible to Christians? the word of God correct? We study it, we read it, we memorize it and we teach it. However have you noticed something a bit off about the bible and and us Christians? If the bible really is the very word of God to us how is it we pick and choose parts of it to believe and not believe? How is it we pull verses out of context to fit our beliefs? how is it we even use it to attack or condemn each other? Something as holy and sacred as the word of God is used incorrectly by many. I have even heard some ppl say that part of the bible is irrelevant or doesn't really matter, some even say that some parts of it are not holy spirit inspired. Our views beliefs and doctrines not only separate the bible but even to some makes part of it not from God.

So we have to make a decision don't we? either the bible is the word of God or only part or most of it is. has anyone ever seen the kind of power that a single scripture has? The power of God flows richly between those pages and yet see how we use it. each scripture each verse has more power in it than a nuke, hard to believe isn't it? God showed me this a long time ago, not by sight but the knowledge of it was just put in my heart. He also taught me to use his word with care and caution, to treat is a holy and sacred thing. With a holy and sacred thing you always take very good care of it and you never just do as you please with it do you? Scriptures are thrown here and there all the time and I doubt a lot of ppl understand how holy and sacred it really is or else they would not use it against each other like they do. Some go by the guise of teaching or correcting and some of them really are but I have seen many who say this but in reality they are simply using it to prove they are right.

True I don't use a lot of scripture when I post especially in a heated debate and I have upset ppl because of this. But because of how I see the word of God because of how sacred and holy it is to me I do not want to use it to prove I am right I won't even use it in a lot of my posts not because I don't know the scripture or am to lazy, not because it is so holy and sacred that i wont use it but because I only use it when I know 100% that God wants me to. you see it's very easy to use scripture the wrong way, you might use it with the wrong motives even if it seems like a godly thing if the heart isn't right then we are misusing it. it isn't often that God calls me use scripture but I am more content to use it only when I know for sure he wants me to than to use it with the wrong heart motive or intent.

It is because we all are working on our faith and which it takes a lot of work to build up our faith in something that cannot be seen or felt. Thomas was with Jesus when He had done miracles, but Thomas quickly started doubting about Jesus will rising from the grave after he had seen Jesus raised others back to life. Trying to hold onto to your faith is hard, especially in these times.

 

[Straightshot]

Blain


Your are correct ..... let's do talk about the Bible and how one can demonstrate that it is in fact the Word of the Living God

First things first .... if not then there is nothing to talk about

One who believes that the Bible is His Word without error must know what they believe .... and why

Otherwise their witness has no substance and people will not listen

There are myriads of professing Christians today that simply cannot give a reliable testimony because of the failure to study themselves approved

 

[Jason0047]

Context is soo important!

Like someone said.. this guy is reading the bible and they decide the best way to read is to ask God to reveal something to him and then just lets the bible open and see what page opens and they will do that verse.

So what page falls open? Judas hanging himself.

So they then do it again- let the bible fall open a page. What verse opens? Go and do thus.

So the mistakenly interpret that God wants them to commit suicide!

Now this is an extreme case of making a mockery of scripture without context, but you'd be suprised what people do with individual verses to apply them very broadly to all kinds of situations.. eg.

'faith without works is dead' is soooooo often misapplied.

another one - 'where two or three are gathered, there I am with them'... people want to apply this to all kinds of situations..when the context is about resolving disputes between local church members.

'he who endureth to the end will be saved' another one that gets removed from it's surrounding verses about escape and deliverance from persecution and trials.

It goes on and on..

My dear friend. I disagree with your view on Matthew 18:20. I decided to give this view the benefit of the doubt by reading an article that explains this view here:

"Where Two or Three Are Gathered" . . . and Other Bad Interpretations - Parchment and Pen BlogParchment and Pen Blog

While I am all for reading passages in context, the actual passage itself is saying Jesus is among them when two or three are gathered in his name on correcting a brother with one or two other witnesses besides yourself. I say this because Jesus said he seen Nathaniel under the fig tree before Philip called him. If this was done by the work of the Father, then Jesus would have said that. Nathaniel then says He is the Son of God for having done this. Meaning, Nathaniel was giving Jesus the credit in doing this as the Son of God. Jesus did not correct Nathaniel and mention how it was the Father who helped Him to see Nathaniel. In addition, Jesus said to Nicodemus that "no man has ascended up into Heaven but he who has descended from Heaven, even the Son of Man which is in Heaven." Jesus is the Son of Man and He just said to Nicodemus that He (Jesus - the Son of Man) is in Heaven. This makes sense because Jesus is One with the Father. That does not mean Jesus is the Father. Modalism is unbiblical (big time). What this means is that each distinct person of the Godhead (who all exist as one God) each have the capacity to dwell within one another.

Now, why do I say this? Well, because...

Jesus has the Power!

~ For During Christ's Ministry: ~

1. Jesus has the Power over the Grave.

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (John 2:19).

"For Just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it" (John 5:21).

2. The Spirit of Christ (Jesus) has the Power of being Omnipresent.

"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them" (Matthew 18:20).

3. Jesus upheld all things by the Word of His Power.

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." (Hebrews 1:3).

4. Jesus's Power Paid the Price for all of Mankind's Sins
(So that they can receive the Free Gift).

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" (Hebrews 1:3).

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29).

5. Jesus has the Power to Forgive Sins and Provide Eternal Life.

"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mark 2:7).

"But whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life." (John 4:14).

"The thief comes only to steal and kill, and destroy: I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." (John 10:10).

Side Note:

Now, do not misunderstand me, I believe Christ's Omniscience (i.e. His divine attribute of having "all knowledge") was suppressed (not eliminated) during the Incarnation so as to be like a man (Philippians 2:6-9); For Adam was a like figure (type) of the Him (Jesus Christ) wbo was to come (Romans 5:14 KJV).

 

[Jason0047]

Now, do not misunderstand me, I believe Christ's Omniscience (i.e. His divine attribute of having "all knowledge") was suppressed (not eliminated) during the Incarnation so as to be like a man (Philippians 2:6-9); For Adam was a like figure (type) of the Him (Jesus Christ) wbo was to come (Romans 5:14 KJV).

Meaning, if Adam is a type or parallel in some way we would be able to see some similarities between the two of them. I believe one of these parallels is that both Adam and Jesus both had limited knowledge for a certain period of time within their life.

 

[Jason0047]

Another reason I believe Matthew 18:20 is referring to Jesus being among believers in the time of correcting a brother with two or three witnesses is because Jesus is the 1st Comforter (In being the unique distinctive person of Son) before He sends the disciples another Comforter (i.e. the Holy Ghost). For He that has the Son has life, and He that does not have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12). In other words, salvation or eternal life is not a super power or a magical wish granted to you by a genie. Life (eternal life) can only be found by abiding in the Son. In fact, Scripture speaks about how Christ lives within the heart of the believer. This makes sense because Jesus stands at the door of people's hearts knocking so as to come in. This means that the disciples and all who believed in Jesus during His Earthly ministry had Jesus living within them.

In other words, Matthew 18:20 is a little bread crumb or kernel of truth thrown in addition to correcting brothers. This is not uncommon to see within the Scriptures. So while I am all for context, I don't think one should ignore the plain straightforward meaning of the verse; Especially when we know other verses convey that particular truth, too.

For I see no indication within the text that we should understand Matthew 18:20 as being symbolic.

 

[Jason0047]

Another reason I believe Matthew 18:20 is referring to Jesus being among believers in the time of correcting a brother with two or three witnesses is because Jesus is the 1st Comforter (In being the unique distinctive person of Son) before He sends the disciples another Comforter (i.e. the Holy Ghost). For He that has the Son has life, and He that does not have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12). In other words, salvation or eternal life is not a super power or a magical wish granted to you by a genie. Life (eternal life) can only be found by abiding in the Son. In fact, Scripture speaks about how Christ lives within the heart of the believer. This makes sense because Jesus stands at the door of people's hearts knocking so as to come in. This means that the disciples and all who believed in Jesus during His Earthly ministry had Jesus living within them.

In other words, Matthew 18:20 is a little bread crumb or kernel of truth thrown in addition to correcting brothers. This is not uncommon to see within the Scriptures. So while I am all for context, I don't think one should ignore the plain straightforward meaning of the verse; Especially when we know other verses convey that particular truth, too.

For I see no indication within the text that we should understand Matthew 18:20 as being symbolic.

Besides, even if there was an indication within the context that Matthew 18:20 was symbolic (which I don't see), it could still be read literally because if they really were true believers, then Jesus would be midst them because He lived within their hearts.

 

[wattie]

Jason--While I am all for reading passages in context, the actual passage itself is saying Jesus is among them when two or three are gathered in his name on correcting a brother with one or two other witnesses besides yourself.

This is what I was saying! The only difference in what we are saying is whether Jesus and His disciples constitute a local church or not. We are BOTH saying this is about correcting a brother.

 

[Andig85]

My Pastor says: "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed."

Look at Abraham, he was willing to sacrifice his son, Isaac, because God told him to, God sacrificed his ONLY son to take away my sin? I cannot fathom it!

 

[Joidevivre]

Let's talk about the Holy Spirit who inspired the bible.

When we abide in Christ, He guides our thoughts and enlarges our understanding.
He reveals deep and hidden things.
His name is Wonderful Counselor.

It is not so much about the written word - it is about our abiding in Christ - His words and His presence.
It is about our trust in the Holy Spirit to reveal the heart of God in every scripture. It is all about revealing Him.

 

[Angela53510]

I agree that it should be about him not us but telling of experiences if not bad thing in fact the telling of experiences have helped many ppl in many ways. a lot of times those experiences told are God's way of speaking to someone.
but anyways back to the subject we were talking about what did you think about what I said? If the holy spirit is what teaches us the truth then what is going on with how so many different Christians have so many different interpretations? it just seems like if we really do have the holy spirit then shouldn't we be able to interpret the bible correctly? just from the fact that even I sometimes get the wrong interpretation from scripture and I know i have the holy spirit I think that we all get scripture wrong sometimes and that the bible isn't as easy to understand as some think.

Blain, all experiences MUST be checked against the Word of God! God gave us the Bible to reveal his Son, and to also show us the way that God would have us walk! That means if we do not know his Word, or choose to ignore it, then we are off track before we start.

Many other religions can tell about their "experiences." Mormons supposedly look for a "burning in the chest" as a sign that the Book of Mormon is correct. Really, when their missionaries witness, they give you their book, and then implant the idea you will have an experience, and then you will become a Mormon. That is leading you on, and I would bet many people do take this subjective experience and get caught in Mormonism.

I use this example, because once, when I had been a new Christian, only two years into my relationship with Christ (like you!) the Mormons were on my door step. I don't know how I knew, but I started checking the book of Mormon against the Bible, and in the first few pages I found two direct contradictions with the Bible. So there was no experience, no burning in the chest, just the knowledge that the Book of Mormon was wrong, and therefore the Mormon religion was wrong! I later learned all the other ways the Mormon religion was totally wrong, but it was the Bible that stopped me from getting hooked into a basically, large cult!

Of course we need the Holy Spirit to guide us, and I did pray for him to guide and lead me. And the Holy Spirit led me back into his Word - The Bible.

You keep saying the Bible divides, but it is the absolute opposite. Look at the agree to agree post. So many things that are basic to the Christian faith, and everyone agreeing.

As for those differences, like soteriology and eschatology, well, I love them! It makes me dig deeper in the Word of God, and pray to know the truth that is God's truth, not men's. If you never know God's Word, never dig deeper, you will remain and shallow Christian, and subject to every new fad, cult and ideas which are just not in God's Word.

I wish dearly Blain, that you would stop coming into the BIBLE Discussion Forum and start telling people that they should stop posting Bible scriptures, and instead rely on YOUR personal experiences!
For one thing, you are a new, young Christian in the faith, and for another, your experiences and posts are proving to have some dubious ideas in many places.

Post in the other forums, but this is a place where the Bible is loved, trusted and respected. I will hold you to the standard of using the Bible, not experience, as I do for every other person in this particular forum.

 

[Straightshot]

"Post in the other forums, but this is a place where the Bible is loved, trusted and respected. I will hold you to the standard of using the Bible, not experience, as I do for every other person in this particular forum."


Agreed .... good for you

 

[Straightshot]

What is the walk of the Christian witness to be? ..... armed with the scriptures and:


Matthew
10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

 

[phil112]

Here's what happens when people interpret the Bible:

I'm gonna disagree with you on this Cycel. That chart is what happens when people twist the bible to accomodate their pet sin or doctrine. The bible doesn't have a bunch of meanings.

 

[phil112]

My Pastor says: "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed."

Look at Abraham, he was willing to sacrifice his son, Isaac, because God told him to, God sacrificed his ONLY son to take away my sin? I cannot fathom it!

Your pastor is wrong. The old testament is Christ concealed, and the new testament is Christ revealed.

 

[Chopper]

Here's what happens when people interpret the Bible:

While this point has be brought to us by one who is a professed atheist, we need to remember that regardless of what you might believe, you were put in that place to say something specific that will actually be used to glorify Elohim or help someone grow in their faith towards our Father Yah, or ha'Mashiah Yahushua.

In essence, what this picture shows is what has been really happening since our Savior, has ascended to the shamayim (heavens). The deception of different doctrinal beliefs and separation because of it is an attempt to divide the house of Elohim that it might not stand, when in fact, it was answered very simply by the words of our ha'Mashiah when He said certain things like love our Abba and one another, if you love Him keep His commandments and even as you do to the least of the brethren, you do to Him. Upon this rock He will build His assembly, and the gates of death will not prevail against it.

This is something that was starting to happen even before He came and walked among us, and after He ascended more deception and paganism began creeping in, splintering off into many variations of religion afterward.

If we have love for one another, this should not be so, and we should seek to keep the house as one by learning and standing together.