Lordship Salvation

[LT]

I wish skinski was right. I would love it if I didn't have to battle temptation any longer.
I would love it if I no longer could get angry when someone cuts me off in traffic, or that I wouldn't ever be distracted by a tv set, or that I wouldn't care about the politics of this world.

But I still get caught up in politics from time to time. I still have to pull myself away from the tv sometimes. I still have to push aside that anger in traffic. I still have to battle that temptation to look at the girl in a bikini on the cover of the magazine in the check out isle at the market.

I have been given the Holy Spirit, and I overcome,
but I still face the temptations, and I can still fail.

The flesh doesn't go away until we get new bodies in Glory.

Gnosticism has nothing to do with it.
Your argument that dualism is heresy, because some Gnostics were dualists, is like saying that the Trinity is false, because Catholics believe in the Trinity.

Gnosticism is heresy because they believe we are saved by secret knowledge, not because they believe in sin nature.

 

[Hoffco]

To Linda70, Sorry, But you are the one who is putting up straw arguments against the Lordship salvation truth. In post 12 you sounded exactly like a Lordship preacher,GREAT, but then you apostatized on this middle line. SAYING: WE know that the Bible teaches salvationby "faith alone"; that is your akilies heel. "faith alone" is the error of Charles Rylie and the rest of the BAD guys from Dallas who teach this EVIL carnal christian heresy. you talk, GOOD, in the 1st and 3rd paragrafts, but your "faith alone" is your error. you left off v10 of Eph.2:8-10, that is your error. Faith and works are both a part of God's saving GRACE, and both continue AFTER salvation. Love to all, Hoffco, Doug from N.Y. and Davao City, Philippines

 

[Hoffco]

The real problem is: Reformation theology throw out the Baby With the wash water. Works are included in Justification. The R.C. church perverted saving works but the Reformers throw it out. We are saved to do holy works,as well as saving faith. Therefore, no works ,no salvation. We need a new REFORMATION. Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

To Lt, your sexual nature is HOLY.
It is not sin to look at the human body and say, praise God, He made it GOOD. BEAUTIFUL. MADE in heaven, But, then STOP, before your HOLY desire becomes sin. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Atwood]

Lordship Salvation Involves Misunderstanding of Scripture

1) It is clear in scripture that By grace you are saved through faith . . . not of works.
Obeying commandments is generally works (one exception, obeying the gospel command to believe -- Believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved. And there is that word "Lord." So it is quite wrong to think that to be saved a man must promise to obey Christ, to accept that He will be the boss. That would be salvation by works, promised obedience.

2) Yet LORD appears in salvation conditional statements, like "Whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be saved. I think that proponents of "Lordship salvation," misunderstand what LORD means in such contexts. For example in Rom 10:13, LORD refers in context to the Lord Jesus, yet it is a quote from Joel where Lord means YHWH, the personal name of God, sometimes rendered Yahweh. And the context of Rom 10:13 speaks of confessing. Confess = homologeo; homo = same, log = saying. Thus confess seems to mean to agree with, to say the same thing.

So when one approaches the Lord for salvation, one must have the Lord Jesus defined adequately, including that He is YHWH, God. That would imply that He is the boss of creation, lord in the sense of Adonai, master. One does have to have Jesus rightly defined, not as Michael the archangel or as Jesus the Mexican car mechanic.

The misunderstanding comes when one fails to realize that the issue is the definition of who Jesus is, not agreeing to obey Him.

Thus LORD salvation would be correct to the extent that one must acknowledge (confess, agree with God) as to Who Christ is. But "Lordship salvation" is wrong to the extent that it implies that one promises to obey for salvation -- salvation by works.

3) Should one ask people to accept Christ as Savior & Lord? "Accept" is not the Biblical word for salvation, the term is believe or have faith in Christ, trust Him. Accept comes close to receive in john 1:12, which is further defined as believe. There is no Biblical reason why sinners should not be urged both to trust Christ as SAvior, and to acknowledge that He is Lord. In fact, I can see no reason why one should not tell persons to ask the Lord Jesus to take over and run their lives.

The imperative to recognize God as Lord in the sense of boss, is constantly upon all created beings, saved & unsaved, angels & demons. Thus in presenting salvation, it should be clear that no works are involved; God is not going to save you in exchange for your recognition that He will be the boss of your life & you will obey Him. At the same time, I can see no reason not to urge all men everywhere to accept the Lordship of Christ and to do it when they trust Christ as Savior.

 

[crossnote]

The real problem is: Reformation theology throw out the Baby With the wash water. Works are included in Justification. The R.C. church perverted saving works but the Reformers throw it out. We are saved to do holy works,as well as saving faith. Therefore, no works ,no salvation. We need a new REFORMATION. Hoffco

Why do you need a new Reformation? You already have Rome, the largest 'christian' organization in the world.
What besides true faith in the Gospel grants the life changing Holy Spirit in a believer's life. I.O.W. faith alone. ..

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[Atwood]

The real problem is: Reformation theology throw out the Baby With the wash water. Works are included in Justification. The R.C. church perverted saving works but the Reformers throw it out. We are saved to do holy works,as well as saving faith. Therefore, no works ,no salvation. We need a new REFORMATION. Hoffco

Hoffco, I think you are correct that some who came out of the reformation reduced justification by faith to signing a doctrinal statement without good works following. Yet salvation is not by works. Eph 2 spells it out. While works do not effect salvation, they demonstrate it and must inevitably flow from being saved.

Need a new reformation? On this issue it seems that every conceivable theory has already been put forth; I don't know how any movement could be new on this.

 

[Atwood]

Why do you need a new Reformation? You already have Rome, the largest 'christian' organization in the world.
What besides true faith in the Gospel grants the life changing Holy Spirit in a believer's life. I.O.W. faith alone. ..

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Good post, crossnote.

Acts 19:2 reads literally ". . . having believed, did you receive . . . ?"

 

[crossnote]

Part of the message of Christ as Lord is in the Gospel, where it is proclaimed He has conquered sin, death, and the devil through His death and resurrection. So even though the convert may hear these glorious truths of His victorious Lord it takes time for them to 'sink in' and work themselves out.

Philippians 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[LT]

I guess these titles are all about emphasis, rather than actually disagreeing.

One side says that we are saved by faith, unto good works; but emphasizes that it is the faith that saves, not the works.
The other side says that we are saved by faith, unto good works; but emphasizes that we are called to good works.

This is silly. You guys are all repeating each other, and saying it's a disagreement, lol.

One side reminds the other to not be worldly (to not be carnal),
and one side reminds the other to be spiritual (to not be legalistic).


I have heard preachers actually preach that sin is okay. Ryrie was not one of them.
We must be careful when picking our enemies, that we don't cause dissension among the brethren.

 

[Hoffco]

Hoffco, I think you are correct that some who came out of the reformation reduced justification by faith to signing a doctrinal statement without good works following. Yet salvation is not by works. Eph 2 spells it out. While works do not effect salvation, they demonstrate it and must inevitably flow from being saved.

Need a new reformation? On this issue it seems that every conceivable theory has already been put forth; I don't know how any movement could be new on this.

OK, I agree, "effectual calling" saves. Yet, I can say. just as rightly, "faith" does not save. So what is the correct response to GRACE. I teach: 1. Repentance from dead works. 2. Faith in Christ alone. 3. holiness that follows grace, good works. Faith and works are from saving GRACE. Right?, Right! Love to all, Hoffco

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

However, depending on the person and his circumstances, spiritual growth sometimes occurs quickly, and other times it takes a long time for changes to become evident, and even then the changes may not be evident to everyone. The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is by faith alone, apart from works (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). The Bible also declares that a life changes after salvation (Ephesians 2:10). So it is a difficult balance to make. We do know, however, that we are not to judge another as to the state of his/her eternal soul (Matthew 7:1). Only God knows who are His sheep and He will mature each of us according to His perfect time table.

So, is Lordship Salvation biblical? Again, it cannot be denied that faith in Christ produces a change (2 Corinthians 5:17). A person who has been delivered from sin by faith in Christ should not desire to remain in a life of sin (Romans 6:2). At the same time, submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is an issue of spiritual growth, not salvation. The Christian life is a process of submitting to God in increasing measure (2 Peter 1:5-8). A person does not have to submit to God in every area of his or her life in order to be saved. A person simply has to recognize that he or she is a sinner, in need of Jesus Christ for salvation, and place trust in Him (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10). Christians absolutely should submit to Him (James 4:7). A changed life and submission to Christ's lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.

from what i have seen this tends to be flatly ignored by the most fervent 'lordship salvation' adherents...

for example one popular 'lordship salvation' preacher told an auditorium full of teenagers at a youth conference...many of whom were apparently new believers...that most of them were going to hell... this was brought on simply because they had not met this preacher's arbitrary standard of righteousness in the previous half hour or so...

the video of the sermon went viral...lots of people with self righteous attitudes thought it was great...

 

[Kerry]

Yadda yadda another preacher saying if you don't go to my church your not gonna make it. Well his church must seat billions.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Lordship is evident in how, and who you live your life for. In general do you obey the Lord or disregard Him.

'in general' do you obey the lord...this is vague and provides a huge loophole for legalism to come in...who gets to decide what constitutes 'in general' obedience to the lord?

in practice what happens in the lordship salvation camp is that the lordship salvation teacher is the one who decides...based on his own arbitrary standard...what constitutes 'in general' obedience to the lord...

biblically there is nothing about being 'in general' obedient to the lord...nobody is 'mostly righteous'...you are either righteous or you are unrighteous...and nobody meets this standard of righteousness regardless of how they live...except by grace through faith in christ...

 

[VCO]

lordship salvation is an oddball form of calvinism...it is especially popular among the 'new calvinists'...or as i like to call them 'calvinist but not reformed' since they tend to come from a legalistic southern baptist background instead of the traditional reformed background...

basically they manage to combine calvinism and work righteousness by saying that while good works don't save you...your good works are the only indication that you are one of the elect... in practice this often ends up meaning that you have to meet an arbitrary standard set by some lordship salvation teacher in order to be certain of your salvation...

just as much of a problem is that a person under lordship salvation teaching is often still left with lingering doubts about their salvation...they end up in the trap martin luther fell into prior to his reformation insights...but whereas luther was never quite sure if he had done enough to merit salvation...many lordship salvation adherents are never quite sure they have done enough to prove their election...

i would say any doctrine that attempts to more or less overturn the reformation's biblical salvation mindset is a harmful thing...

Then Rachel you would be wrong and you have fallen for a misunderstanding of the term Lordship Salvationist. That twisted misunderstanding of the term is primarily perpetuated by those who have no real idea of what it is that we really teach and believe. First of all, we are not Calvinists, they would disown us because we do not believe in two of the 5 points of Calvinism. And the Armenians would disown us because we do believe in 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism. So, I guess you are just going to have to label us Christians, because we do not fit in either group. So where does the term Lordship Salvationist come from, that many mean as an insult, while we take it as a compliment?

John 1:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:5-7 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord {which means Master}, continue to live in Him,

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess {that which is true about yourself, NOT just profess} with your mouth Jesus as Lord {which means Master}, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

John 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

1 John 2:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

Matthew 7:21-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’ {That word "knew" refers to that inner personal LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ, where we willingly out of LOVE for HIM, because HE saved us, submit to HIS Lordship.}

James 4:7 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Hebrews 12:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Furthermore, we had natural fathers discipline us, and we respected them. Shouldn’t we submit even more to the Father of spirits and live?

1 John 5:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.


Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.



Genuine born again Salvation produces LOVE FOR GOD. Genuine LOVE FOR GOD manifests itself in willing submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Submitting to Jesus as LORD means you are willingly submitting to HIM as MASTER. That genuine born again LOVE for the LORD our GOD, will produce a lifestyle of continuously striving to Keep His Commands.


Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


NOW THAT is what believing in Lordship Salvation really means, most of us just call ourselves, Conservative Evangelicals.

 

[StoneThrower]

'in general' do you obey the lord...

I try to, I honor his word and his commands, my desire is to serve him and submitt to his will over my own. Hopefully they are the same for the most part.
Lordship salvation to me means in order to be saved Jesus needs to be Lord of your life. The coin has to sides savior and Lord you cant have one without the other this quote sums it up nicely.

The nature of Christ's salvation is woefully misrepresented by the present-day evangelist. He announces a Savior from hell rather than a Savior from sin. And that is why so many are fatally deceived, for there are multitudes who wish to escape the Lake of fire who have no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness." -​

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Then Rachel you would be wrong and you have fallen for a misunderstanding of the term Lordship Salvationist. That twisted misunderstanding of the term is primarily perpetuated by those who have no real idea of what it is that we really teach and believe. First of all, we are not Calvinists, they would disown us because we do not believe in two of the 5 points of Calvinism. And the Armenians would disown us because we do believe in 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism. So, I guess you are just going to have to label us Christians, because we do not fit in either group. So where does the term Lordship Salvationist come from, that many mean as an insult, while we take it as a compliment?

John 1:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many asreceived Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:5-7 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord{which means Master}, continue to live in Him,

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess {that which is true about yourself, NOT just profess} with your mouth Jesus as Lord{which means Master}, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

John 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

1 John 2:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

Matthew 7:21-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’ {That word "knew" refers to that inner personal LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ, where we willingly out of LOVE for HIM, because HE saved us, submit to HIS Lordship.}

James 4:7 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Hebrews 12:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Furthermore, we had natural fathers discipline us, and we respected them. Shouldn’t we submit even more to the Father of spirits and live?

1 John 5:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.


Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.



Genuine born again Salvation produces LOVE FOR GOD. Genuine LOVE FOR GOD manifests itself in willing submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Submitting to Jesus as LORD means you are willingly submitting to HIM as MASTER. That genuine born again LOVE for the LORD our GOD, will produce a lifestyle of continuously striving to Keep His Commands.


Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


NOW THAT is what believing in Lordship Salvation really means, most of us just call ourselves, Conservative Evangelicals.

well you should -keep- calling yourself a 'conservative evangelical'...because from your self description you are -not- actually a member of the 'lordship salvation' camp...and it is -you- who misunderstands the meaning of the term...

'lordship salvation' adherents -are- calvinists...they -do- subscribe to all five points of calvinism...see john macarthur and paul washer for examples...

 

[crossnote]

I try to, I honor his word and his commands, my desire is to serve him and submitt to his will over my own. Hopefully they are the same for the most part.
Lordship salvation to me means in order to be saved Jesus needs to be Lord of your life. The coin has to sides savior and Lord you cant have one without the other this quote sums it up nicely.

The nature of Christ's salvation is woefully misrepresented by the present-day evangelist. He announces a Savior from hell rather than a Savior from sin. And that is why so many are fatally deceived, for there are multitudes who wish to escape the Lake of fire who have no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness." -​

I pretty much agree but I seldom hear anyone these days mentioning hell even from those who preach the need to be saved from our sins.

 

[VCO]

well you should -keep- calling yourself a 'conservative evangelical'...because from your self description you are -not- actually a member of the 'lordship salvation' camp...and it is -you- who misunderstands the meaning of the term...

'lordship salvation' adherents -are- calvinists...they -do- subscribe to all five points of calvinism...see john macarthur and paul washer for examples...

THAT IS THE POINT, John MacArthur IS NOT A Five Point CALVINIST EITHER. He is the main teacher that discipled me. That is where I learned NOT to agree with two of the Five Points, and where I learned the real definition of what a Lordship Salvationist believes. You are slinging mud, falsely accusing Dr. John MacArthur, who is a Conservative Evangelical. You bought a lie that is falsely accusing us. READ the VERSES again, that is what we Teach and Believe.

As for Paul Washer, I do not know him.

 

[Apostol2013]

May be a link to Johnny Macarthur's teaching would help others to understand what this is about.

Mac Arthur is a joke . But if Christ is our lord then why not do as He says ,it is the Holy Spirit that changes the heart if one pr#ys in the spirit oftenly they will see the change along with the word . By the miraculous works of Christ are people saved healed etc one must seek liberation through the spirit that has all power for it is Christ.