Martin Luther - There's Something About Mary

[Maynard]

I don't think you read what I said.

I said child sex abuse can be found in all walks of life. The part I have an issue with is how the RCC dealt or did not deal with it.

I agree that it is found in all walks of life. However Protestant churches and Catholic alike have been guilty of attempting to protect their own. The US Department of Education is also guilty of this when schools have shuffled abusing teachers around to protect the reputation of their institution.
Any pastor, priest, or teacher, or anyone who's ever harmed children will be judged by God Almighty, whose judgment is righteous and true.
Lets stop pointing fingers at one another though, daschance, with this false notion that our institution is squeaky clean when they most certainly are not. None is. Let's work everywhere to protect children from predators - be they corrupt pastors, dentists, daycare workers, priests, or teachers. Oh, the evil that men do.

Peace, and Christ be with you.

 

[Maynard]

Saying Matthew's statement is confined to that point still doesn't show that she remained a virgin. I think the main thing that baffles us, Maynard, is why you argue such a point. Let's just say that Mary remained a virgin her whole life. So what? Why would you "strain at a gnat" in this way?

It also does not say that she didn't remain a virgin, JJ. That verse in Matthew was put forth by numerous Protestants here, using it in attempts to prove that she had sexual relations with Joseph, when that verse actually proves no such thing, as I clearly demonstrated. That was my point.

 

[Stephen63]

Martin Luther also brewed his own beer. Does it mean it's okay for me to set up a still in my backyard?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Another illogical common Protestant argument. The conjunction "until" in Scriptural usage expresses what has occurred up to a certain point, and leaves the future aside. Thus God says in the book of Isaiah: "I am till you grow old" (Isaiah 46:4). Are we to infer that God would then cease to be? Of course not! Again, God says to His Divine Son: "Sit Thou on My right hand until I make Thy enemies Thy foot-stool" (Psalm 109:1). Will the Messiah, once His enemies are subdued, relinquish His place of honor? Absolutely NOT!
St. Matthew's principal aim was to tell his readers that Christ's birth was miraculous and that Joseph had no part in the conception of Mary's child. His statement is confined to this point.

'until' indicates a change of state except in cases where it is applied to a definite endpoint...such as the end of time...or the end of a person's life...where it is understood that the action in question clearly cannot continue beyond that point...

for example there is a wife of david who 'had no children until the day she died'...obviously she cannot have children after her death...so the term 'until' is used without ambiguity...

but in other cases where the word 'until' is -not- applied to a definite endpoint...such as joseph not knowing mary 'until' jesus was born...then it clearly indicates a change of state...

nobody would say 'john paul ii was celibate until he became pope'...because that would obviously mean to any ordinary reader that john paul ii fooled around while he was pope... if we wanted to indicate that john paul ii was always celibate...we would include a definite endpoint in our 'until' statement...saying something like 'john paul ii was celibate until the day he died'

the same logic applies to the statement in scripture about mary...if mary was a virgin her entire life...matthew would have included a definite endpoint...and said something like 'and joseph knew her not until the day she died'

 

[zone]

LOL RACHEL.

"nobody would say 'john paul ii was celibate until he became pope'...because that would obviously mean to any ordinary reader that john paul ii fooled around....."

 

[Maynard]

nobody would say 'john paul ii was celibate until he became pope'...because that would obviously mean to any ordinary reader that john paul ii fooled around while he was pope... if we wanted to indicate that john paul ii was always celibate...we would include a definite endpoint in our 'until' statement...saying something like 'john paul ii was celibate until the day he died'

Rachel, you've fallen into your own trap.

By your logic then that would indicate that he necessarily fooled around after he died.

Think about it. If "celibate until he was pope" means necessarily that he fooled around after he was pope (as you say), then it would certainly be the case that "celibate until he died" means that he fooled around after he died.
Your argument is self defeating, and confirms my point.

 

[danschance]

Maynard,

Why are you trying to prove Mary, even though married to a man, remained a virgin? Is sex dirty? Does sex make a married woman evil or less pure? Why even get married to a celibate wife? What is your motivation for preaching this nonsense?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Rachel, you've fallen into your own trap.

By your logic then that would indicate that he necessarily fooled around after he died.

Think about it. If "celibate until he was pope" means necessarily that he fooled around after he was pope (as you say), then it would certainly be the case that "celibate until he died" means that he fooled around after he died.
Your argument is self defeating, and confirms my point.

evidently you ignored the rest of my post...

when 'until' refers to a final endpoint...such as death...after which it is clearly impossible for the action in question to take place...then the statement is not ambiguous...

when there -isn't- a final endpoint...then a change is implied in the characteristic in question...

 

[danschance]

'until' indicates a change of state except in cases where it is applied to a definite endpoint...such as the end of time...or the end of a person's life...where it is understood that the action in question clearly cannot continue beyond that point...

for example there is a wife of david who 'had no children until the day she died'...obviously she cannot have children after her death...so the term 'until' is used without ambiguity...

but in other cases where the word 'until' is -not- applied to a definite endpoint...such as joseph not knowing mary 'until' jesus was born...then it clearly indicates a change of state...

nobody would say 'john paul ii was celibate until he became pope'...because that would obviously mean to any ordinary reader that john paul ii fooled around while he was pope... if we wanted to indicate that john paul ii was always celibate...we would include a definite endpoint in our 'until' statement...saying something like 'john paul ii was celibate until the day he died'

the same logic applies to the statement in scripture about mary...if mary was a virgin her entire life...matthew would have included a definite endpoint...and said something like 'and joseph knew her not until the day she died'

Good point and I fully agree.

 

[Ritter]

Martin Luther also brewed his own beer. Does it mean it's okay for me to set up a still in my backyard?

Yes.......

 

[zone]

Yes.......

 

[Ritter]

Maynard,

Why are you trying to prove Mary, even though married to a man, remained a virgin? Is sex dirty? Does sex make a married woman evil or less pure? Why even get married to a celibate wife? What is your motivation for preaching this nonsense?

See the second or third post in. His desire is to break the back of Protestantism by highlighting a discrepancy between Martin Luther's beliefs and those of modern Protestants.

No, it doesn't make very much sense.

 

[zone]

See the second or third post in. His desire is to break the back of Protestantism by highlighting a discrepancy between Martin Luther's beliefs and those of modern Protestants.

No, it doesn't make very much sense.

Luther said to take heed concerning his earlier writings...lest they be still Romish.
naturally they would.
how much can one guy do in one lifetime?

now about that still....

LOL

 

[Ritter]

Luther said to take heed concerning his earlier writings...lest they be still Romish.
naturally they would.
how much can one guy do in one lifetime?

now about that still....

LOL

To quote Billy Joel "You're only human"

I'll drink to that.

 

[Maynard]

evidently you ignored the rest of my post...

when 'until' refers to a final endpoint...such as death...after which it is clearly impossible for the action in question to take place...then the statement is not ambiguous...

when there -isn't- a final endpoint...then a change is implied in the characteristic in question...

You make the same mistake, once again. Again confirming my point.

Look. By your logic then according to the following passages God would cease to exist, and Jesus would relinquish his throne once his enemies were subdued.

"I am till you grow old" (Isaiah 46:4).
Are we to infer that God would then cease to be once "you grow old"? Of course not!
Again, God says to His Divine Son: "Sit Thou on My right hand until I make Thy enemies Thy foot-stool" (Psalm 109:1).
Will the Messiah, once His enemies are subdued, relinquish His place of honor? Absolutely NOT, Rachel.

if your sense is forced on the Bible, some ridiculous meanings result.

Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23). Are we to assume she had children after her death?

The examples could be multiplied, but you get the idea, Rachel—nothing can be proved from the use of the word "till" in Matthew 1:25.
Recent translations give a better sense of the verse: "He had no relations with her at any time before she bore a son" (New American Bible).

 

[7seven7]

Luther said to take heed concerning his earlier writings...lest they be still Romish.
naturally they would.
how much can one guy do in one lifetime?

now about that still....

LOL

So its fine to make excuses for Luther's mistakes, but give a reason for the Catholic Church's mistakes in her past and you all start having fits lol. Luther teaches something wrong, its a mistake. Catholic Church teaches something "wrong", its the anti-christ according to you folks hahaha. You said "how much can one guy do in one lifetime?" I'll ask how much can one Church gain in 2000 years? A lot more knowledge, wisdom and understanding of scripture than a Church in only 500 years. ESPECIALLY when it's being guided by the Holy Spirit. Amen. God bless.

 

[JimJimmers]

I think we're still wondering, Maynard, why you started the thread. Are you trying to prove the ever virginity of Mary because your church teaches it, therefore it must be true? Why are you trying to convince us? Or are you not trying to convince us, just trying to leave open the possibility of it being true?

 

[zone]

So its fine to make excuses for Luther's mistakes, but give a reason for the Catholic Church's mistakes in her past and you all start having fits lol. Luther teaches something wrong, its a mistake. Catholic Church teaches something "wrong", its the anti-christ according to you folks hahaha. You said "how much can one guy do in one lifetime?" I'll ask how much can one Church gain in 2000 years? A lot more knowledge, wisdom and understanding of scripture than a Church in only 500 years. ESPECIALLY when it's being guided by the Holy Spirit. Amen. God bless.

Romans 3
Righteousness Through Faith

21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith inh Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

[danschance]

I think we're still wondering, Maynard, why you started the thread. Are you trying to prove the ever virginity of Mary because your church teaches it, therefore it must be true? Why are you trying to convince us? Or are you not trying to convince us, just trying to leave open the possibility of it being true?

Well, of course it is true because the pope can't possibly make a mistake in matters of the church....even if one pope contradicts another.

 

[Maynard]

I think we're still wondering, Maynard, why you started the thread. Are you trying to prove the ever virginity of Mary because your church teaches it, therefore it must be true? Why are you trying to convince us? Or are you not trying to convince us, just trying to leave open the possibility of it being true?

People have been discussing these things for centuries. If this theological discussion disturbs you so, Jim, then I remind you that no one's forcing you to read, or write, or troll.