Mediums and Ministers

[isatai]

I seem blocked to answer the last post so I will do it here!
I find your comments standard but thank you. This paper is born of sixty years of study of religions, the Bible, Spiritualism and fake mediums. These comments do not address or apply to anything that I have written in this document. I am well informed about what most Christian churches teach. It is not so much what they teach it is how “some” teach and that is a problem.
They do not take into consideration Bible errors.
It is also written “We preach a stumbling block to Jews.” that is not very nice!

 

[4enlightment]

I seem blocked to answer the last post so I will do it here!
I find your comments standard but thank you. This paper is born of sixty years of study of religions, the Bible, Spiritualism and fake mediums. These comments do not address or apply to anything that I have written in this document. I am well informed about what most Christian churches teach. It is not so much what they teach it is how “some” teach and that is a problem.
They do not take into consideration Bible errors.
It is also written “We preach a stumbling block to Jews.” that is not very nice!

There isn't any errors but misinterpreting. In some way, it is a stumbling block for the Jews. Jews didn't want to give up their traditions and which they believe that it is right, but their traditions had turned them into judges by hating and condeming others and which that isn't what God had intended for them to be ( And which that there is some Jews that feel that if they are above all people and which that is being arrogant). They didn't show any mercy towards one another and which the laws was for the purpose to teach them how to respect and show kindness to all. Like Jesus was helping people on the sabbath and they had condemned Him for that. So they had patterned themselves to follow the laws without understanding the purpose of them. Like it says to respect your parents because they had took the time to raise them and care for them; but they had taken it to another level by just tossing them a bone and which that will make them happy. So if you are seeking somewhere else for enlightenment, make sure that it fits into scriptures.

 

[isatai]

I am not seeking. I am a researcher but since you seem to like to teach I have an honest question for you.
Anytime I have read about Jesus on the cross it quotes him as saying "Father, father why hast thou forsaken me."
Now my Aramaic translation says, "For this I have been spared."
Why such a difference?

 

[4enlightment]

I am not seeking. I am a researcher but since you seem to like to teach I have an honest question for you.
Anytime I have read about Jesus on the cross it quotes him as saying "Father, father why hast thou forsaken me."
Now my Aramaic translation says, "For this I have been spared."
Why such a difference?

You know that Aramaic has been watered down over the centuries; even the Jews didn't know what Jesus was speaking about, they thought that He was calling on Elijah and which Eloi does sound like Elijah and which the word Eloi was watered down from Eloihim ( which it might not be the original aramaic language) and which that was the word that Jesus was using on the cross. The Jews only spoken Greek at the time of Christ but maybe a few words of watered down Aramaic. Rmember they went through Egypt, Babylon, Persia, and Rome. So the language during the time Abraham was in the land of the Chaldeans, that is the language that Jesus was speaking.

 

[isatai]

My Aramaic Bible states in the preface that, "In the first century, Jesus and his earliest followers certainly spoke Aramaic."
In any case do you believe the Bible is error free? that is my question?

 

[4enlightment]

My Aramaic Bible states in the preface that, "In the first century, Jesus and his earliest followers certainly spoke Aramaic."
In any case do you believe the Bible is error free? that is my question?

Matthew 27 45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”

To me it sound as if someone couldn't understand what Jesus was saying. So if I were you, I'll get another Bible with a more better preface or to go by what it is written in the scriptures.

 

[kenisyes]

I am not seeking. I am a researcher but since you seem to like to teach I have an honest question for you.
Anytime I have read about Jesus on the cross it quotes him as saying "Father, father why hast thou forsaken me."
Now my Aramaic translation says, "For this I have been spared."
Why such a difference?

Simple. You have an incorrect translation. First of all sabq is indeed Aramaic, and it means "left behind". The use of "spared" implies "spared from being taken to something bad". "-ni" is the objective, not subject first person pronoun, thus meaning "me", not "I". The Greek translation determines the understanding that Matthew (one of Jesus' 12) and Mark (interpreter of Peter) had of what Jesus said. They know better than your translation, as they were his disciples.

Further, it is a quote from Ps. 22:1, translated to Aramaic. The root there means allowed to remain alone, again "left behind", not "spared".

 

[danschance]

They do not take into consideration Bible errors.

What ever do you mean?

 

[4enlightment]

• J.W. Hayford writes: "Jewish tradition lists Moses as the author of Genesis and of the next four books....we notice a number of loanwords from Egyptian that are found in Genesis, a fact which suggests that the original author had his roots in Egypt, as did Moses." [SUB]7[/SUB]
• The Pentateuch -- the first five books of the Bible

Exodus 4 10 Moses said to the Lord, “Pardon your servant, Lord. I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue.”
11 The Lord said to him, “Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the Lord? 12 Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say.”
13 But Moses said, “Pardon your servant, Lord. Please send someone else.”
14 Then the Lord’s anger burned against Moses and he said, “What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and he will be glad to see you. 15 You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. 16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouthand as if you were God to him. 17 But take this staff in your hand so you can perform the signs with it.”

This scriptures was reproof, but it suppose to have said that he was clumsy with his speech and which it could also mean that Moses couldn't speak very good Hebrew but he speak very good Egyptian language. And which this is the first watered down.

And don't you know that the word Jesus ( in german translation) is a greek name for Yeshua=Ieoshua, or Joshua in german and which Martin Luther is German. And have you noticed that the rest of the name and the New testament is in Greek/ German translation?

 

[isatai]

I guess what I mean is all the mistakes. "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D. Ehrman. "[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]We could go on forever talking about specific places in which the texts of the New Testament came to be [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]changed[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman], either accidentally or intentionally. As I have indicated, the examples are not just in the hundreds but in the thousands. The examples given are enough to convey the general point, however:
there are lots of differences among our manuscripts, differences created by scribes who were reproducing their sacred text.
In the early Christian centuries, scribes were amateurs and as such were more inclined to alter the text they copied—or more prone to alter them accidentally—than the scribes in latter periods who, starting in the fourth century, began to be professional" (p. 98).

Forged by Bart D. Ehrman, we read, [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]"Or—a somewhat different case, as we will see—that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not actually written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Scholars for over a hundred years have realized that in fact this is the case" [/FONT][/FONT](p. 9).
Really there are too many things to list! But here is my personal take and I am sure of it from experience with many religious fakers.

Symbolism [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]is identified with church and spiritualism, and most of all both use the supernatural for underhanded reasons at times. [/FONT][/FONT]Awake [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]and [/FONT][/FONT]not awake [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]flocks exist in Spiritualism and Christianity.
[/FONT][/FONT]Medium [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]– State between the extreme. Many pastors get between a person and God to attempt spiritual communication.
[/FONT][/FONT]Mediator [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]– acting as a mediator. Many Christians claim to talk with Jesus or feel his communications and along with that is communication with the spirit world, or so they claim. They run around and proclaim they have been touched by the Holy Spirit, yet
the good Buddhist or Hindu is not. Many of these people are truly touched, but it is not by the Holy Spirit!
They also communicate with the spirit world through prayer, so why deny what it is? It is a form of [/FONT][/FONT]Spiritualism [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]and if it is true, then it is true [/FONT][/FONT]Spiritualism. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]And if it is [/FONT][/FONT]not [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]then it is [/FONT][/FONT]false!
Mediums [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]gather information on people to let the mark know that they know about their sins, thus using a guilt trip. Many Christians just hand that information over to mediums through confession.
[/FONT][/FONT]Both church and mediums [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]claim power of [/FONT][/FONT]spiritual communications [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]and miracles. There are stories of levitation in both Church history and Spiritualism, and a long list of other miracles.
[/FONT][/FONT]Mediums [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]take money to protect people from the evil one or a curse. [/FONT][/FONT]Churches [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]take money to protect people from the evil one or the one who is cursed. If there is no little devil, people have been bilked out of billions.
Many of the old mystery schools taught to "Know Thyself" to know God. To know thyself was totally missing from any born-again teachings that I have experienced. It is my firm belief based on personal experience, study, and many years of thought that the born-again world I was born into is one of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]the largest Fraudulent Mediums Religious Movements [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]on the face of earth and the [/FONT][/FONT]best [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]people always sat in the [/FONT][/FONT]pews.
No religion "owns" the Holy Spirit!
[FONT=Script MT Bold,Script MT Bold][FONT=Script MT Bold,Script MT Bold]
[/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[kenisyes]

Of course, if you call "white" black, and "black" white, you can get your colors pretty confused. And everyone of us reads a little bit, learns a little bit, and fills in the gaps with whatever errors our imagination comes up with.

It's right that you recognize we have all learned errors together with truth. We all need to build a relationship with God, so we can get it straightened out. And we all need to keep purifying that relationship as we get older. Ehrman and various studies can point up the deficiency, but only Jesus can straighten it out.

 

[isatai]

And there is where the rub is. my experience with born again churches was the Bible is perfect and free from error and all those teachers were wrong and they worked people over pretty good in the Baptist Church and the so called Church of Christ out of Texas. We were taught that if we did not agree with every word we were not following God.
You seem to be quite open minded and I find that refreshing. Of course if these errors exist and only Jesus can straighten them out now we are getting into spirit contact. I am sure you know not everyone who claims to contact jesus really is. i believe contact is possible as I have studied this subject all my life.
Now the church (Catholic) still says all scribes were guided by the Holy Spirit. if that were true there would be no mistakes. Also if it were true why didn't the Holy Spirit guide those priest who molest children?
So my question today is are all non christians going to hell or seperation from God? Norm

 

[kenisyes]

There are a few possibile explanations you may be overlooking.

First, Jesus is a radically different class of spirit from that usually contacted by mediums. The type of spirit contacted may actually result in different types of contact, with completely different results.

Second, the catholic church could be wrong. (But do you have the statement correct?)

Third, just because someone is guided by the Holy Spirit does not mean there are no mistakes. Humans are not good listeners. Priests who molest children are apparently some of the most obvious examples of bad listeners.

People go to hell if they die separated from God. It is an assumption that those who die without having become Christian are necessarily among those people. As far as my experience goes, there are some people who claim to be Christian and are in fact separated from God, as well.

The statement that "scribes are inspired by the HS": Do you mean that as stated? It is not true as stated, the Catholics do not claim that. They make two similar claims, that the Pope is free from error under certain conditions, this claim is not true. They also claim that "Scripture contains exactly what God wanted written (and thus has no errors of what God wanted written)". This statement is fundamental, and is accepted by all Christians, as far as I am aware. However, it does not prove that what Scripture says is easily understood correctly. The Catholic Church also has a statement regarding this, that "Scripture is complete. Nothing new will be added. But we are still growing in our understanding of it."

It sounds like you have been through the ringer, especially with three denominations: Baptist, Church of Christ, and Catholic. It's good you are looking for the truth for yourself.

 

[isatai]

I have seen a priest claim the Holy Spirit guided the scribes and the Bible is free from error. I am sure there are a lot of people who should not be preaching.
Truth is not always the best policy and I don't mean we should lie but perhaps say nothing or something kind to ease pain. Case in point. My brother died at 25 of cancer. while dying church people told my mother to get him Baptised or he would go to hell.
He would not do it. He believed in just a loving God right or wrong. After he died some even told my mother, "Now he is in hell." I watched my mother slide into mental illness and she was in her own hell for twenty years until she finally got to a point she did not even know her family.
The only reason I did not go back and try to sue this church is because I do not believe in getting the state invoved in religion. They can't even run the government.
Yes I have been worked over but I also have had good experiences in the Episcopal church even though I believe different. they were kind like Jesus.
I have been to many churches. I don't believe in hell as the Baptist stated because I have been to hell. No one has to die phyiscally to go to hell.
I have also experienced total bliss which I believe this place called heaven is based on.
Yes I agree jesus is a different spirit than these so called fake mediums claim to contact. But even so it is still spirit contact and I don't believe people like Jimmy Swaggets crew, Oral Roberts, and 90% of all these guys ever contacted the spirit of Jesus. Norm

 

[kenisyes]

Yes, you've been through the ringer alright. At least now you know what not to do when you are ministering to others.

As facts: That is what I thought you might have meant about the Catholic priest. He meant the Bible is inspired. Do you not agree with that? You do not need to believe that we are reading it correctly to believe God wrote it.

You're right on about those people insisting your brother went to hell to the point of driving the mother mentally ill. They don't know enough of God's plan to be certain, and all they are doing is reading the Bible one particular way.

It's good God has taken you both to heaven and hell. There is nothing like firsthand experience to know what words mean in Scripture.

People like Jimmy Swaggart and Oral Roberts, I would hate to say "never", since there are lot of people who say they have helped them get closer to Jesus, and I would not condemn something just because it does not work for me.

 

[isatai]

I do believe the Bible is inspired. I love the story of David and Goliath. I can't say I know exactly what the writer meant but to me I love the idea the little guy or girl can beat the giant. We have giants of power all around us and people who want to rid the earth of all religion.
It is not important to me if there were really giants or not. To me it is what we can draw from the story that is important. For instance do I care if Jesus healed a blind man or not, no I don't? I f Jesus heals the blind mind to me that is even more important.
You seem kind about some preachers and I understand but I am one who believes guy like Oral Robert and Jimmy Swaggart should not preach to anyone but that is just my take. People say fake mediums help them also but they still are fakes and when they bleed over into mainstream religion it is even worse. I cite a young man who is called the prophet. I receive an e mails from one called the prophet. He said he saw evil around me and for $47.00 he would remove it. Now that is clearly what fake mediums do yet he is under the banner of a born again Christian. He also has a lot of people who say that he helps them. Fake mediums have many people who say they have been helped while they are being deceived.
The fact is the push back on Christianity today is because of the morons of yesterday. Because these incompetents were un able to answer any questions of depth many people my age had to study hard and then came truths which none of these misfits like.
I did not know that the crucifixion story was not original. It seems before Jesus exist 16 or 17 stories of other crucified saviors. More troubling is the pyramid text of Egypt.
The story of Horus of Egypt is almost exactly the same as Jesus but Horus came first. Not only are the stories about him the same in many cases some of the text is almost word for word the same. There were others also. If you felt you needed salvation you might be told worship Tulis (of Egypt) as he was crucified for your sins. I personally believe Bible writers plagiarized the works of others to add to their stories. That is not the fault of Jesus but the problem is there. Many Christians know nothing about these things.
Look at the saying, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Cleary a teaching from others. Most all religions, Hindu, Buddhist and others had that saying first. Even Socrates used it. Since the church deemed these others as false religions the question is why use their material?
All of this is coming up as time marches on. Sooner or later people will see that the church cannot be trusted to bring the facts to anyone. For instance Mary Magdalene. The church now admits (Catholic) m
Mary was not a wanton women but a highly respected disciple of Jesus and a women of means. I have seen priest admit that. A family member of mine who is Catholic is being taught that right now.
The church made her look bad to make Jesus look more kind. So Christianity as brought down to us is in my opinion not pure or close to it. These are not the only changes the Catholic Church made. The bible is a book of ancient magical lore!
Now as to that priest, he taught the Bible was perfect without one little mistake as did the Baptist of my day and the Church of Christ and many others.
Since the Catholic brought us the Bible and since they have the facts in the Vatican of what really happened I will leave you with the words of one High Catholic Scholar.
Occult The Science of Things Hidden.
Malachi Martin, Eminent Theologian, expert on the Catholic Church, a former Jesuit and professor at the Vatican’s Pontifical Bible Institute, is the author of many books including, “The Keys Of This Blood.”

In this book Malachi Martin states that "The church latched onto what they considered to be an ultra-secret body of knowledge, a gnosis, which was based in part on cultic, occultist strains deriving from North Africa notably,
Egypt and in part on classical Jewish Kabbala.” They also
borrowed symbols- The pyramid and All Seeing Eye, mainly from
Egyptian sources.



I am impressed with the freedom of speech here.

 

[4enlightment]

2 Corinthians 11:7Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?

Hebrews 13:5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”


Matthew 6:24“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Luke 16:14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.

Matthew 27:5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

John 12:5“Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.”

Acts 8:20Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!

1 Timothy 6:10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

2 Timothy 3:2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,




Matthew 26:26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

 

[kenisyes]

All your observations are factually correct. That the truth of Bible stories does not matter to you, I assume is a personality trait. Truth is important to me, and both of us are okay as God made us, you not caring, and me caring. It is like your observation of the crucified saviors, or the Egyptian parallels. One can choose to believe that the Bible is a plagiarized copy and hence not inspired. Or one could choose to believe that the true Savior, when He appeared, would make a point of satisfying everyone's hopes, dreams and expectations. The real savior ought to have had wisemen finding Him by astrology, and raising the dead as did Imhotep, and being willing to die for the truth as was Socrates and be the 18th in the line of crucified saviors. Just like, if it is God's plan that humbler men can kill symbolic giants, then so can little shepherd boys kill ten foot tall genetically modified champions. God is God, one being, one plan, one great will that includes us all. Can His Son thus be any less than the perfect fulfillment of all of our needs as expressed by our stories from the past?

Many of us have realized that churches, as most are today, are training camps. Once trained, it is time to move on with God to greater things. You may never appreciate certain other ministries (there are many I do not like) if your calls lies in another direction. Most of us realize this sometime in our late forties or early fifties, and it takes a little while to get our bearings in a world that does not teach this obvious truth. You are well past this age. You may leave the churches and your history with them, that you now know is so filled with error, behind, and join us at any time, simply following Jesus as he leads.

 

[homwardbound]

I am not seeking. I am a researcher but since you seem to like to teach I have an honest question for you.
Anytime I have read about Jesus on the cross it quotes him as saying "Father, father why hast thou forsaken me."
Now my Aramaic translation says, "For this I have been spared."
Why such a difference?

whether it translated the way you see it or not
Does it not boil down to Jesus was taking on the sin of the whole world
John 1:29 [ John Testifies About Jesus ] The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

No if Christ yelled out why has thou forsaken me it was because it appeared that way, God who can see no sin, would have had to turn his back on Christ during his taking on all sin for each of us.
Christ died and took it all away so he could do this
[h=3]Colossians 1:21-23[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. [SUP]22[/SUP]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—[SUP]23 [/SUP]if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

 

[homwardbound]

now the way your reading is and he was spared for this, is the reconciliation, the message of to us all, by his stripes we are healed