I don't think our heavenly Father is watching what you eat! Scripture ways it isn't what goes in our stomach. However! It was to symbolize and remind people to be clean in thoughts and hearing, and to keep separated from worldly people, so I certainly think you are to be kosher in that way. I don't eat port or bottom fish, but it isn't for the Lord, it is to remind me to think kosher.
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What a wonderful question!! Both believe equally in Christ as their savior. Both believe in the entire bible.
Messianic Christians feel there is great spiritual information in the OT that is carried through to the New Testament, so everything written in those scriptures is true, should be studied. Then these things are brought forward and sometimes explained more completely in the NT.
The organized church feels that some things were made completely obsolete by Christ, instead. For instance, circumcision. Scripture tells us that physical circumcision is not needed any more. The church feels it is rather wrong, and Messianics say that we need to know all that God meant when He gave circumcision, that we must not look at the physical as the true circumcision, but as long as we know the real circumcision is of the heart it is not wrong to do the physical one. Not necessary, but not wrong. The organized church feels it is wrong to celebrate the feasts, Messianics don't.
Because Messianics will often be kosher, they celebrate feasts, etc. the church says that by doing the physical they are 1. trying to be Jews and 2. trying to make works their salvation instead of Christ. Messianics feel that the wall has been torn down between Jew and gentile and both come to Jesus the same. Eph 2:14 For He is our peace, who made both groups one and tore down the dividing wall of hostility. In His flesh,
Messianics feel that works has never resulted in salvation and never will. Christ said be you perfect, and scripture tells us no human can be. To listen to both these scriptures means we just do the best we can. We have Christ when we miss the mark.
Messianic Christians feel there is great spiritual information in the OT that is carried through to the New Testament, so everything written in those scriptures is true, should be studied. Then these things are brought forward and sometimes explained more completely in the NT.
The organized church feels that some things were made completely obsolete by Christ, instead. For instance, circumcision. Scripture tells us that physical circumcision is not needed any more. The church feels it is rather wrong, and Messianics say that we need to know all that God meant when He gave circumcision, that we must not look at the physical as the true circumcision, but as long as we know the real circumcision is of the heart it is not wrong to do the physical one. Not necessary, but not wrong. The organized church feels it is wrong to celebrate the feasts, Messianics don't.
Because Messianics will often be kosher, they celebrate feasts, etc. the church says that by doing the physical they are 1. trying to be Jews and 2. trying to make works their salvation instead of Christ. Messianics feel that the wall has been torn down between Jew and gentile and both come to Jesus the same. Eph 2:14 For He is our peace, who made both groups one and tore down the dividing wall of hostility. In His flesh,
Messianics feel that works has never resulted in salvation and never will. Christ said be you perfect, and scripture tells us no human can be. To listen to both these scriptures means we just do the best we can. We have Christ when we miss the mark.
I have just been studying that scripture in light of all other scriptures. If it stood alone, without anything else in the bible, it could be we should not listen to any other covenant. When I go all through the bible (many chapters) I find the subject of covenants is a deep subject, they can be amended but never cancelled, as a promise cannot be cancelled. Then I noticed that it says it has not vanished away, it is weak. Certainly, Christ changed many things, making it all stronger and more effective-----everything.
I don't think this verse means that many things told in the OT as the foundations of Christ should be tossed aside. Christ took many things and like a butterfly from a moth made it complete. I think it is necessary to learn exactly what things, I think some remain.
I don't think this verse means that many things told in the OT as the foundations of Christ should be tossed aside. Christ took many things and like a butterfly from a moth made it complete. I think it is necessary to learn exactly what things, I think some remain.
God gave Israel 5 Covenants, 4 were unconditional, 1 was conditional...i.e. the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus Christ while in the flesh lived His life perfectly never breaking the Mosaic Covenant, He was the only one... a Perfect Lamb and Sacrifice. Through His death He nailed the Law and through His resurrection and ascension an Eternal Priesthood was established.
We have been crucified with Him, risen with Him...a new life, eternal life established.
I could go on and on but I fear I keep wasting my time.
We have been crucified with Him, risen with Him...a new life, eternal life established.
I could go on and on but I fear I keep wasting my time.
You keep saying the law has to do with salvation, and it has never, ever, been for salvation. The Mosaic Law never was for salvation at all, we are punished for breaking the law but for those who have Christ, for those Hebrews who went to God for atonement, that punishment was never eternal death. You will never find any scripture that says forgiveness is withheld except for the one thing.
Look at David. He certainly was not sinless. Yet he was beloved by God. How do you think the Mosaic Law worked in his case?
Look at David. He certainly was not sinless. Yet he was beloved by God. How do you think the Mosaic Law worked in his case?
Then I am not understanding what all the law talk has to do with the HRM? In my study of the OT, I don't find big emphasis on law, and yet these posts bring up law over and over. I thought it had to do with understanding that the Mosaic Covenant had to do with the punishment for not obeying law mistaken for eternal death, so that is why they thought it was cancelled through Christ?
Where did this idea that because HRM delves into all the OT says, even into the rituals to understand them, that they were using this for salvation? It seems such a, may I please say stupid? idea to me, yet this thread is filled with it.
Where did this idea that because HRM delves into all the OT says, even into the rituals to understand them, that they were using this for salvation? It seems such a, may I please say stupid? idea to me, yet this thread is filled with it.
oh!
okay. i think i knew that part, that the moses covenant is replaced by the new covenant Jesus made.
but isn't the abrahamic covenant the one that is the new covenant? that's the one we have, isn't it?
do you mean christians have everything in the covenant with abraham except the land? i get it (i think) or is the new covenant different than the promise to abraham?
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
is that the part about israel's land promise inheritence?
okay. i think i knew that part, that the moses covenant is replaced by the new covenant Jesus made.but isn't the abrahamic covenant the one that is the new covenant? that's the one we have, isn't it?
do you mean christians have everything in the covenant with abraham except the land? i get it (i think
) or is the new covenant different than the promise to abraham?If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
is that the part about israel's land promise inheritence?
thanks for your answer, Linda70 sorry for being thick about it. but something sounds wrong. like, i just read the new testament, and i see the nation israel receiving the spiritual blessings, and being the church that Jesus died for
and then, like it says the gentiles got saved and included too. that didn't seem complicated at all. it seemed like God's promises from the very beginning were coming true, that he would send a savior for the world.
where does it say in the new testament that there is something different for jews or gentiles? i read the new testament a lot and i don't see that in there (not saying i understand everything i read, but i didn't see anything about separate things promised. i saw that there was one promise and it went to God's chosen people israel first and some didnt accept it, but the the gentiles were included also. that wasn't anything new because God told abraham that in his seed (isaac i guess) was the redeemer and that he was the father of many nations. i thought that was the promise, and that it was for all people.
okay, what's replacement theology? "the Church has replaced the nation of Israel"? i don't know what this means. isn't the church the nation of israel who believed on Jesus the jewish Messiah? idk...now i'm really messed up.
the church has land, i guess. everywhere they live around the world. but i thought we weren't supposed to lay up treasures here or love the world or expect anything lasting (?)
someone else posted this on another thread. it says abraham made his home in the promised land! but lived like a stranger in it. are you saying that wasn't the promise? sorry, i don't get it. it says Isaac and Jacob his sons who were heirs with him of the same promise also lived in the promised land, in the same way. like temporary.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
is the city he was looking forward to israel as it is today? or sometime son God will remake it with foundations that are different?
gentiles are born again christians of jewish ethnicity? what? i do not get this at all.
i know gentiles and jews are different in the old testament, but is there a difference in the new testament? like, i know they are different races and stuff, but in Christ there's not any difference...is there? i'm confused because it says everywhere that Jesus made a special point of making them into one new man.
yes there is! the bible says jews who are born again and circumcision is of the heart!
okay, this i know is not right. everybody is grafted into the ROOT who is Jesus! the natural branches are the jews who knew the root, Jesus and didn't get cut off. and the gentiles who knew the Lord got grafted in!
or am i wrong? i might be wrong. i'm pretty messed right now. none of this makes any sense. i need to read it all again.
right!that's what i said! i agree, for sure. and all the way back to genesis. so what is the difference in Christ? or even not in Christ?
sorry, this is a really long post, and i'm sure i'm contradicting myself a million times already
but it says right here about them:
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
it says they did live in the promised land! i don't know about in the future part.
what do you mean? is there a promise for the future that was different from the one they already received? they died! how can they get something in the future when they already received it and they died?
well. this i'm not so sure about. christians is an english word, right? weren't God's people always his people all the way back in time? or are you saying the church is something different from being God's people i thought it said Jesus was the rock israel drank from in the wilderness and so on.
okay, i agree. the church in the new testament was originally jews. and God's people was the nation israel all the way to Jacob, right? but even before that God had his own people. like adam and noah and all the people before Jacob.
do you think christian is a derogatory term? i don't. it means they were followers of Jesus Christ. what's wrong with that? he was the one they had been waiting for all those years and years. i don't see how the church started somewhere part way through the new testament. that makes no sense. i see a new covenant was made with israel because the old one couldn't save them, and that the gentiles were included. in all the promises. unless i'm missing something really huge which i must be!
well now that sounds like the gospel message i read about and it doesn't seem to change part way through or anything like that. that's the whole story, isn't it? like, isn't that the good news? it's; not good news for people who reject Jesus, but what does that have to do with God's plan? i'm totally lost at this point.
okay, i've read about this, different versions of it and i can't make sense of it yet. what's God's purpose for the body of Christ? isn't the churhc or the body of believers from israel and gentiles being the church the whole point of why Jesus came and gave himself?
mary's song says
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.”
so i don't understand. it says he did do it.
why is israel going to go through the tribulation? i thought that was for everyone?
i think i understand...you are saying that israel the NATION, as in the nation that came out of egypt has promises that God "set aside" (you said?). and that they will be fulfilled when Jesus sets up his kingdom.
peter of israel said to others from israel who believed-
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
if all the early church were jews from israel, how can the new covenant not be fulfilled for them? it was israel who sat at table with Jesus when he poured the wine and broke the bread with them and said he had made a new covenant in his blood.
sorry about such a long post. i prefer shorter, next time i will just try to ask shorter questions. where can i read about this
in the new testament? because that's what i believe tells us what we need to know.
sorry for being thick about it. but something sounds wrong. like, i just read the new testament, and i see the nation israel receiving the spiritual blessings, and being the church that Jesus died forand then, like it says the gentiles got saved and included too. that didn't seem complicated at all. it seemed like God's promises from the very beginning were coming true, that he would send a savior for the world.
where does it say in the new testament that there is something different for jews or gentiles? i read the new testament a lot and i don't see that in there (not saying i understand everything i read, but i didn't see anything about separate things promised. i saw that there was one promise and it went to God's chosen people israel first and some didnt accept it, but the the gentiles were included also. that wasn't anything new because God told abraham that in his seed (isaac i guess) was the redeemer and that he was the father of many nations. i thought that was the promise, and that it was for all people.
okay, what's replacement theology?
"the Church has replaced the nation of Israel"? i don't know what this means. isn't the church the nation of israel who believed on Jesus the jewish Messiah? idk...now i'm really messed up.the church has land, i guess. everywhere they live around the world. but i thought we weren't supposed to lay up treasures here or love the world or expect anything lasting (?)
someone else posted this on another thread. it says abraham made his home in the promised land! but lived like a stranger in it. are you saying that wasn't the promise? sorry, i don't get it. it says Isaac and Jacob his sons who were heirs with him of the same promise also lived in the promised land, in the same way. like temporary.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
is the city he was looking forward to israel as it is today? or sometime son God will remake it with foundations that are different?
gentiles are born again christians of jewish ethnicity? what? i do not get this at all.
i know gentiles and jews are different in the old testament, but is there a difference in the new testament? like, i know they are different races and stuff, but in Christ there's not any difference...is there? i'm confused because it says everywhere that Jesus made a special point of making them into one new man.
yes there is! the bible says jews who are born again and circumcision is of the heart!
okay, this i know is not right. everybody is grafted into the ROOT who is Jesus! the natural branches are the jews who knew the root, Jesus and didn't get cut off. and the gentiles who knew the Lord got grafted in!
or am i wrong? i might be wrong. i'm pretty messed right now. none of this makes any sense. i need to read it all again.
right!that's what i said!
i agree, for sure. and all the way back to genesis. so what is the difference in Christ? or even not in Christ? sorry, this is a really long post, and i'm sure i'm contradicting myself a million times already
but it says right here about them:
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
it says they did live in the promised land! i don't know about in the future part.
what do you mean? is there a promise for the future that was different from the one they already received? they died! how can they get something in the future when they already received it and they died?
well. this i'm not so sure about. christians is an english word, right? weren't God's people always his people all the way back in time? or are you saying the church is something different from being God's people
i thought it said Jesus was the rock israel drank from in the wilderness and so on.okay, i agree. the church in the new testament was originally jews. and God's people was the nation israel all the way to Jacob, right? but even before that God had his own people. like adam and noah and all the people before Jacob.
do you think christian is a derogatory term? i don't. it means they were followers of Jesus Christ. what's wrong with that?
he was the one they had been waiting for all those years and years. i don't see how the church started somewhere part way through the new testament. that makes no sense. i see a new covenant was made with israel because the old one couldn't save them, and that the gentiles were included. in all the promises. unless i'm missing something really huge which i must be!well now that sounds like the gospel message i read about and it doesn't seem to change part way through or anything like that. that's the whole story, isn't it? like, isn't that the good news? it's; not good news for people who reject Jesus, but what does that have to do with God's plan? i'm totally lost at this point.
okay, i've read about this, different versions of it and i can't make sense of it yet. what's God's purpose for the body of Christ? isn't the churhc or the body of believers from israel and gentiles being the church the whole point of why Jesus came and gave himself?
mary's song says
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.”
so i don't understand. it says he did do it.
why is israel going to go through the tribulation? i thought that was for everyone?
i think i understand...you are saying that israel the NATION, as in the nation that came out of egypt has promises that God "set aside" (you said?). and that they will be fulfilled when Jesus sets up his kingdom.
peter of israel said to others from israel who believed-
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
if all the early church were jews from israel, how can the new covenant not be fulfilled for them? it was israel who sat at table with Jesus when he poured the wine and broke the bread with them and said he had made a new covenant in his blood.
sorry about such a long post. i prefer shorter, next time i will just try to ask shorter questions. where can i read about this
in the new testament? because that's what i believe tells us what we need to know.
what will it be like when Jesus returns and sets up his kingdom? we wouldn't be back under the law, would we? Linda said God set aside the nation israel until then. does that mean there will be a temple and all the things that they had when Jesus was there talking to them?
i guess i should just ask what will it be like when Jesus sets up his kingdom. haha.
i guess i should just ask what will it be like when Jesus sets up his kingdom. haha.
K
There will be a temple and the ark will be restored, But Jesus will be sitting on the throne and we that have believed before His appearance will have glorified bodies and rule and reign with Him. The old sacraments will only be for remembrance as we will have the lamb of God with us. Isn't that His name Emanuel meaning God with us.
can Jesus be the mediator of a better covenant if the old one is still in effect? it sounds like God had to cancel the old covenant so he could provide a superior one. it sounds like the new one is better in every way.6But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and saidb :
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”c
13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
oh! okay. i think i knew that part, that the moses covenant is replaced by the new covenant Jesus made.
but isn't the abrahamic covenant the one that is the new covenant? that's the one we have, isn't it?
do you mean christians have everything in the covenant with abraham except the land? i get it (i think) or is the new covenant different than the promise to abraham?
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
is that the part about israel's land promise inheritence?
okay. i think i knew that part, that the moses covenant is replaced by the new covenant Jesus made.but isn't the abrahamic covenant the one that is the new covenant? that's the one we have, isn't it?
do you mean christians have everything in the covenant with abraham except the land? i get it (i think
) or is the new covenant different than the promise to abraham?If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
is that the part about israel's land promise inheritence?
The New Covenant includes Jewish believers in Messiah but thru a temporary phase of unbelief also to Gentiles and is based on Jer 31...
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The Gentiles partake of the spiritual blessings but not the land/physical. promises.