misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

[sllhouette]

I am a devout Catholic. I am curious what you find out what you think are the most difficult teachings of the Catholic Church.

I don't want to get into any discussions on this thread, I just want to hear from you personally what you disagree with from a theological perspective so I can know where to focus my studies.

try not to read other peoples responses until you have posted. Also try to list them in order with the teachings that you believe are least likely to be scripturaly supported at top.

The things I find most difficult with common protestant theology is
1) sola fide,
2) sola scriptura,
3) and the lack of infant baptism.

 

[Skinski7]

Both Catholicism and Protestantism are built upon the errors which Augustine of Hippo introduced into the church system around 400 c.

Many doctrinal errors have been built upon underlying errors and today we have a whole system of error which is deceiving millions.

What is the answer?

Stop listening to men and simply pick up the Bible and read what it teaches. The Gospel message is very simple.

 

[Skinski7]

The things I find most difficult with common protestant theology is
1) sola fide,
2) sola scriptura,
3) and the lack of infant baptism.

Faith alone is a heresy which gained prominence through Martin Luther and his "Bondage of the Will." Jas 2:24 specifically states that it is not by faith alone, this is because faith is not mental assent, faith is not abstract, faith is actually the the working dynamic by which a believer applies the grace of God to their lives with the end result being purity of heart.

I am not sure what "scripture alone" implies except that term was coined as a refutation of the ecclesiastical structure of the Catholic church. The scriptures are the written word of God passed down to us as a witness of truth and are useful in establishing sound doctrine. Yet the scripture is a means to an end not an end itself thus I would never personally say "scripture alone" for we have to come to Jesus Christ.

Infant baptism is a result of the traducianist view of the transmission of original sin. Under this teaching "sin" is transmitted through the male seed and thus a soul is already corrupted at birth. Infant baptism is the sacrament which washes this supposed corruption away. It is error because sin is a choice not a substance.

Sin is a moral issue, it is not genetic and it is not some sort of ethereal essence of sorts. That sort of teaching originated in platonic dualism as it was elaborated on by the gnostics.

It was through the prolific writings Augustine that such a philosophy gained wide acceptance within church orthodoxy. Augustine was schooled in platonic philosophy as a youth and was also a student of the philosophy of the Manichaeans before his conversion to the Catholic faith. While he wrote against the Manichaeans in many of his writings he never let go of their fundamental view of sin and thus the nature of man.

 

[mori]

I don't want to get into any discussions on this thread

While I understand the intent, this isn't a strictly moderated discussion and this topic, in particular, is a can of worms. If you hang out anonymously in the Bible chatroom or browse these boards for a while, you'll definitely get more than a comprehensive list. Guard your heart against the inevitable frustration here, however, as your purposes will almost surely be thwarted.

The things I find most difficult with common protestant theology is

You might as well throw steaks at wolves.

 

[mori]

I can't necessarily list them in the order I think they lack biblical support, sorry, but here are the objections I've observed, in order of estimated frequency:

1. The question of prayer

a. Prayer to the saints in general

i. how do we know who is in heaven?
ii. inaccessibility of the dead
​

b. Prayer to Mary in particular

i. the idea of the coredemptrix/mediatrix
ii. the Rosary and other repetitive prayer​

2. The question of the priesthood

a. The Papacy

i. infallability
ii. its establishment and history, especially during WWII​

b. The general priesthood

i. the rite of reconciliation
ii. the title "Father"
iii. celibacy in the priesthood and its relationship to sexual abuse
iv. apparent sexism in the priesthood​

3. Soteriology

a. The question of works in Catholicism

i. obvious examples of popular piety
ii. what the magisterium actually teaches​

b. The question of original sin

i. baptism is usually included here
ii. everybody relearns the church fathers​

4. Misc. questions

a. The Trinity from nontrinitarian protestants
b. The canon

i. those who are concerned with deuterocanonical books
ii. those who accept other scriptures​

c. The day of worship
d. The apparent importing of pagan holidays​

Anyway, formatting is becoming obnoxious. I'm sure I'm leaving out quite a bit, but this is what comes to mind when I think of the most common Catholic-Protestant scuffles I've been witness to.

 

[Canadian36]

infant baptism is kinda pointless. They're not making any decision at that moment. They're only saved because they're an innocent kid. The water on there head does nothing. Only as a teen or adult I think when you get baptised it actually is meaningful because you're making a concious decision of your own free will and not someone else making it for you. Jesus ministry didn't look, sound or feel like the Catholic church. He didn't get any of his disiples to do any of those rituals. He instructed them to pray direct to God the father not to his mother. He got everyone to eat the bread and the wine, not just the preist drinking the wine and not the congragation.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

we know that salvation is by faith, not of works, ephesians 2:9. the passage used in james for salvation by works does not even use the word "salvation" or anything like it.

 

[Avinu]

infant baptism is kinda pointless. They're not making any decision at that moment. They're only saved because they're an innocent kid. The water on there head does nothing. Only as a teen or adult I think when you get baptised it actually is meaningful because you're making a concious decision of your own free will and not someone else making it for you. Jesus ministry didn't look, sound or feel like the Catholic church. He didn't get any of his disiples to do any of those rituals. He instructed them to pray direct to God the father not to his mother. He got everyone to eat the bread and the wine, not just the preist drinking the wine and not the congragation.

That's a big whopping AMEN!!!

 

[Dude653]

Catholicism is anti Bible and Anti Christ. It is the doctrine of satan

 

[Lamby]

The main thing is to teach Christ crucified and resurrected. The Catholic church does that too.

Aside from that, it seems to me that there is alot of idol worship within the catholic church. Also justification by works (rituals) that often lack sincerity of heart. That isn't the case for all Catholics I'm sure, but there does seem to be this fear that if the rituals are removed, then you fall out of favour with God?

As with all churches and denominations- it's full of people. And people aren't perfect!

1 Cor 12: 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

 

[dscherck]

Catholicism is anti Bible and Anti Christ. It is the doctrine of satan

Catholicism is pro-Bible and Pro-Christ. It is the Church established by Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and the gates of Hell tremble in fear before it.

 

[LightningClap0002]

I can't necessarily list them in the order I think they lack biblical support, sorry, but here are the objections I've observed, in order of estimated frequency:

1. The question of prayer

a. Prayer to the saints in general

i. how do we know who is in heaven?
ii. inaccessibility of the dead
​

b. Prayer to Mary in particular

i. the idea of the coredemptrix/mediatrix
ii. the Rosary and other repetitive prayer​

2. The question of the priesthood

a. The Papacy

i. infallability
ii. its establishment and history, especially during WWII​

b. The general priesthood

i. the rite of reconciliation
ii. the title "Father"
iii. celibacy in the priesthood and its relationship to sexual abuse
iv. apparent sexism in the priesthood​

3. Soteriology

a. The question of works in Catholicism

i. obvious examples of popular piety
ii. what the magisterium actually teaches​

b. The question of original sin

i. baptism is usually included here
ii. everybody relearns the church fathers​

4. Misc. questions

a. The Trinity from nontrinitarian protestants
b. The canon

i. those who are concerned with deuterocanonical books
ii. those who accept other scriptures​

c. The day of worship
d. The apparent importing of pagan holidays​

Anyway, formatting is becoming obnoxious. I'm sure I'm leaving out quite a bit, but this is what comes to mind when I think of the most common Catholic-Protestant scuffles I've been witness to.

Major rep for this. Well stated and concise.

 

[sllhouette]

Catholicism is anti Bible and Anti Christ. It is the doctrine of satan

My intent in starting this thread was not to respond to what was said, but to sit back and listen to what you, my brothers and sisters, have to say. But I feel I must say a prayer.

Lord, I recognize you the Father of all of us and I recognize your merciful and just authority over all of us. Turn our whole spirit toward heaven and call us away from earthly things, for we desire you Lord and to be with you is our goal. We ask that you would fill our spirits with patience, humility, charity, and wisdom. Teach us to speak gently, not assuming that we are the source of truth, but that it is you that is the font of all that is good. Lord, as we speak, let us profess YOUR truth, but more, I ask that you give me the very words to say for I am a poor author and can survive only with your support.
I confess anger, willful ignorance, intolerance, and pride to you lord and I ask you to forgive me and help free me because these things impede the joy that I find in you. I further ask you to help me forgive those, such as dude, that show me anger, ignorance, intolerance, or pride and to establish your peace with them and to truly Love them. Lord, do not leave us in a situation where we would be tempted to be angry, ignorant, intolerant, or prideful that we might be encouraged to only be patient, humble, loving, and wise. Free us from fear, doubt, anxiety, and any evil that prevents us from speaking your word.
You can, because thine is the kingdom and the power(including truth) and the glory today and for all time. amen.

I would also like to add an intention for all those who do not yet have the full truth (not excluding ourselves here ) that they might not be hard of heart and pursue God's truth with fullness of faith and joy.

Protect us, Lord, as we stay awake; watch over us as we sleep, that awake, we may keep watch with Christ and asleep, rest in his peace. Alleluia!

 

[loveme1]

vatican’s top biblical scholars recently issued a report that for the first time in nearly 2,000 years apparently validates as legitimate the Jewish wait for the Messiah. A 210-page document titled 'The Jewish People and the Holy Scriptures in the Christian Bible,' by the Pontifical Biblical Commission and authorized by the Vatican’s top theologian, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, reportedly states that 'the Jewish messianic wait is not in vain'.

The truth being used by an evil agenda is the misunderstanding.



Benedict XVI praying like Muslims toward Mecca in a mosque, with arms crossed in the Muslim prayer gesture called “the gesture of tranquility,” on Nov. 30, 2006

 

[Consumed]

infant baptism is kinda pointless. They're not making any decision at that moment. They're only saved because they're an innocent kid. The water on there head does nothing. Only as a teen or adult I think when you get baptised it actually is meaningful because you're making a concious decision of your own free will and not someone else making it for you. Jesus ministry didn't look, sound or feel like the Catholic church. He didn't get any of his disiples to do any of those rituals. He instructed them to pray direct to God the father not to his mother. He got everyone to eat the bread and the wine, not just the preist drinking the wine and not the congragation.

really though infant baptism is no more than dedicating ones child to the Lord, faith shown, as in the bible, how some do some do it bro, abc christianity lol

 

[dscherck]

really though infant baptism is no more than dedicating ones child to the Lord, faith shown, as in the bible, how some do some do it bro, abc christianity lol

Abc Christianity accepts infant baptism as valid. It's the circumcision of the new covenant. And we know that circumcision was done for adults only as converts, but their children were circumcised about 8 days after birth. Since the majority of first Christians were adult converts, it's natural that we typically see adults baptized. But Paul emphasized the relationship between circumcision and baptism in order to emphasize to the Jews who accepted the gospel the importance of the new covenant. These Jews would understand that their children should be baptized as well. That's why we see whole households baptized, and we have records from within the first century of men who write of how they were baptized as infants. Heck, Polycarp is one of the early Christian leaders we have records of. He learned the gospel directly from the Apostle John and was quite careful to make sure that what he taught was the same as what John taught him. And Polycarp is quite clear that he was baptized as an infant.

 

[JaumeJ]

The things I find most difficult with common protestant theology is
1) sola fide,
2) sola scriptura,
3) and the lack of infant baptism.

If the enfant baptism is being equated to the Jewish custom of the dedication of the first born, it is reaching for a connection,
"Exo 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine."
John the Baptist baptized those who came to be baptized, who believed this last Old Testment Prophet.
People are baptized in water of their own will as obedience to Yahweh.

Here is the only real interogative in these threads about religions of men: Is it a sin to obey Yahweh or to disobey Him.

If you would obey Him, you would read His entire Word, cleave to His only begotten Son, and advise all others to do the same. Worship Yahweh.

 

[Canadian36]

Abc Christianity accepts infant baptism as valid. It's the circumcision of the new covenant. And we know that circumcision was done for adults only as converts, but their children were circumcised about 8 days after birth. Since the majority of first Christians were adult converts, it's natural that we typically see adults baptized. But Paul emphasized the relationship between circumcision and baptism in order to emphasize to the Jews who accepted the gospel the importance of the new covenant. These Jews would understand that their children should be baptized as well. That's why we see whole households baptized, and we have records from within the first century of men who write of how they were baptized as infants. Heck, Polycarp is one of the early Christian leaders we have records of. He learned the gospel directly from the Apostle John and was quite careful to make sure that what he taught was the same as what John taught him. And Polycarp is quite clear that he was baptized as an infant.

Not sure I follow what your saying fully. What I'm saying is that I think, and I could be wrong, Catholics believe that it's imparative that the baby be baptised. And I could be wrong but I think they think that somehow saves the kid. I don't think so. The baby could die 2 hours after being born, never baptiszed and go to heaven since it's still innocent, and unaware. It's not some human ritual thats somehow gonna save it. But I think later on in life when the person reaches teen to adult years if at that point they get baptized they're doing the ritual with the concious knowledge of what they're doing, being born again, to symbolize there's new found faith, accepting Christs into there heart and sacrific for there sin. Almost like an extention of doing just the sinners prayer. But again I think that too even as an adult is symbolic and just a ritual. Again even as an adult I don't think that you'll show up to the perly gates and they'll be like "hmmm lets see was he baptized as an adult, No, oh well down you go". Again the adult baptism is I think a very good thing. Not manditory, but it's like any other ritual that it signifies the level of your belief to some extent that you'd be willing to do the ritual. But again jesus and the theif at the cross he said to him that he'd be saved and the theif had no time to do anything right. But getting back to catholics I think, and I could be wrong, they think that to be saved you must get baptised. Again I could be wrong. That's why I was gving the example of the baby.

 

[shawntc]

My main issues with Catholicism are as such:

1. Faith plus works necessary for salvation. To be fair, I agree with the Catholic belief to some degree. I do not believe you can simply say you're saved because you have a mental acknowledgement of God's existence. The book of James, which has been referenced here already, says that even the demons know God exists - and they shudder. Simply knowing in your brain God is real and going to church on Sunday is not enough to be saved. You cannot do enough good stuff to get to heaven, because even our best actions are like dirty rags in God's sight. I suppose you could say that true faith leads to works. In the sense that if you truly have faith in God and Jesus's life, you will repent from sin. Am I saying what Catholic belief states?

2. Praying to the dead saints. The verses used to justify this by the Catholic church doesn't seem to say what Catholics think it says. The term "prayers of the saints" seems to more indicated the prayers of us on Earth, not those already in heaven. In any case, how do we know that the saints in heaven are hearing our prayers? How do we know God has given them permission to intercede for us?

Those are my two largest quarrels. The first one being the biggie. Salvation is the essential thing. Everything else is commentary.

 

[dscherck]

If the enfant baptism is being equated to the Jewish custom of the dedication of the first born, it is reaching for a connection,
"Exo 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine."
John the Baptist baptized those who came to be baptized, who believed this last Old Testment Prophet.
People are baptized in water of their own will as obedience to Yahweh.

Here is the only real interogative in these threads about religions of men: Is it a sin to obey Yahweh or to disobey Him.

If you would obey Him, you would read His entire Word, cleave to His only begotten Son, and advise all others to do the same. Worship Yahweh.

And worship Him in full communion with the Church He founded, that has preserved His gospel and the Holy Scriptures for close to two thousand years.