Most of the salvation scriptures are not referring to eternal salvation

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B

Butch5

Banned
#21
May 2, 2014
1,060
12
0
#21
forsha said:
John 6:37-40, All that the Father GIVETH me SHALL, (meaning WILL) come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he HATH GIVEN me I should LOSE NOTHING, but RAISE it up again at the last day. So, who did Jesus die for? All that God gave him. He did not die for anyone that God did not give him, and all that God did give him will live with him in heaven, without the loss of even one. If that's not eternal security, I don't know how much plainer it could be said. In answer to Rom 8:11, I will direct your attention to Eph 2:1, And you hath he QUICKENED (gave life, born again) who were DEAD (spiritually dead, carnal) in trespasses and sins. The carnal man will not, and, indeed can not discern spiritual things until they have been born of the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14. The "FAITH" in Eph 2:8, is not man's faith, but is Jesus's faith. Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, But by the faith OF Jesus Christ. Sanctification did not come "when man makes his home in Jesus". Sanctification came on the cross, the same time that eternal salvation came. 1 Thes 4:3, It was the will of God that all those that he gave to Jesus should be sanctified on the cross. It disturbs me that man takes honor and praise away from God and claims the glory for himself.
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If that is the case then only those in Jesus day could be saved. Those given to Christ were the disciples in Jesus' day. If you read John 17, Jesus prays for 'those thou hast given me.' It's in the past tense. There is nothing anywhere else in the NT where anyone is said to be given to Christ. Jesus is the only one who used that term. And, He even make a distinction between those that had been given to Him and future believers.

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. {sanctified...: or, truly sanctified}
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
(Joh 17:1-26 KJV)

Jesus refers to those who were given to Him in the past tense they were given. He also contrasts this with those who will believe through their word. He didn't say anything about them being given in the future. People are given to Christ today, that drawing was specific for that time. This can be seen in Jesus' words in John 12:32, 'if I am lifted up I will draw all unto me.'

Also, above you put "LOSE NOTHING" in all caps but didn't put "should" in all caps. The statement is in the subjunctive mood indication God's desire not the result. The Subjunctive mood indicates possibility or probability not results. We see in John 17, per Jesus' own words that one was lost.
 
B

Butch5

Banned
#22
May 2, 2014
1,060
12
0
#22
forsha said:
The word "world" in John 3:16, according to Thayer's Greek interpretation is, pertaining to "believers only" John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19. If a person is a believer they are already born of the Spirit according to 1 Cor 2:10-14. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world of believers that he - - - - .
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The problem here is of imposing on the passage. There is nothing in the passage to assume anything other than the world. Believers are not the world, they are a subset of it.
 
F

forsha

Guest
#23
#23
Butch5 said:
Can you prove that from Scripture?
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The Greek meaning of salvation is "a deliverance". Butch, when you commit a sin, and you repent of that sin and God forgives you, do you deny that God has delivered you from the consequence of that sin? If so, you have been saved (delivered). Not eternally, because Christ secured our eternal salvation on the cross, but a deliverance here on earth. Rom 10, 9, That if t thou shall confess with thy mouth, the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved (delivered). These people that Paul is talking to are already saved eternally by the fact that Paul called them brethren and said that they have a zeal of God. which is evidence that they are not carnal, void of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14 Every time that a child of God confesses and repents of a sin and the Lord forgives him there is a salvation (deliverance from that sin) that takes place, not eternally, but a deliverance while they are still on the earth.
 
F

forsha

Guest
#24
#24
Butch5 said:
If that is the case then only those in Jesus day could be saved. Those given to Christ were the disciples in Jesus' day. If you read John 17, Jesus prays for 'those thou hast given me.' It's in the past tense. There is nothing anywhere else in the NT where anyone is said to be given to Christ. Jesus is the only one who used that term. And, He even make a distinction between those that had been given to Him and future believers.

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. {sanctified...: or, truly sanctified}
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
(Joh 17:1-26 KJV)

Jesus refers to those who were given to Him in the past tense they were given. He also contrasts this with those who will believe through their word. He didn't say anything about them being given in the future. People are given to Christ today, that drawing was specific for that time. This can be seen in Jesus' words in John 12:32, 'if I am lifted up I will draw all unto me.'

Also, above you put "LOSE NOTHING" in all caps but didn't put "should" in all caps. The statement is in the subjunctive mood indication God's desire not the result. The Subjunctive mood indicates possibility or probability not results. We see in John 17, per Jesus' own words that one was lost.
Click to expand...
Yes, those that God gave to Jesus was in the past, before Jesus went to the cross, but it was not just the apostles. John 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, are the apostles the only ones that come to Jesus?, and I will in no wise cast them out. Verse 39, And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day. Are the apostles the only ones that Christ died for? You see how, that when you make the statement that the apostles are the only ones given to Jesus it does not harmonize with other scriptures. The carnal man will not, and indeed, can not come to Jesus and fully understand what he is doing, because the carnal man can not discern spiritual things until he has already been born of the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14.
 
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