MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS

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Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#21
after reading this whole thread it appears to just be typical CoC doctrine junk. Which means, aint nobody got time for that...
Church of Christ doctrine junk? Oh.... boy... You better be glad I don't have time to go off on you right now lol.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#22
I actually don't see really any error in the CoC and what is taught, unfortunately peoples lack of understanding within the church of christ and what the bible really says is what raises so many eyebrows.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#23
The organ was introduced by the Catholics as early as the technology was available, some say in the 8th century. They argued that it was like all the Levites at the control of one man (sound anything like the pope?). From Medieval times, we know that miracle plays (like the modern Easter and Christmas pageants) were staged OUTSIDE the church, by traveling troupes of lay people, on Bible subjects, and used the common entertainment instruments of the day. The Ethiopian Copts were found (once accessible to helicopter in the 1930's) to use percussion setting a beat, they would sing and dance to the cycle of alternating instruments. It is generally believed that this is what this particular group did in 100AD, as they were cut off from about 150 until 1934 or so. The Odes of Solomon (early Christian poetry) associates a wind harp (harp left in the wind like we use wind chimes) with the Holy Spirit's action on the heart. These are the only relevant NT uses of music in worship I am aware of. It was all vocal otherwise among the Gentiles. There is no record of the Ebionites, but it can be assumed they copied the psalms and used trumpets, harps, tambourines, etc. when they had them.

In 500+ AD, the pope threatened WAR on a French monastery because their melodies had some different notes than the official pope's book in Rome.

In terms of this, it should be noted that from Egypt onward, the notes of the scale were considered unique revelations of God, and the tunes were considered part of the inspiration of the text. This idea also vanished between the times of the Levites and the early Christians.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#24
I love the Bach Cantatas ...beautiful mix of lyrics and instruments :rolleyes:
 
Mar 15, 2013
190
0
0
#25
People used to think the guitar was the devil's instrument.
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#26
We don't live under the Old Testament. ........ The Old Testament was done away with when Christ died on the cross. We now live under the New Testament and go by the commands there. .......
And the winner for the most ignorant post is..........
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,781
2,946
113
#27
I play flute in church. I play it because it is IN THE BIBLE!!

I cannot imagine why you would not believe in the Old Testament. Just ridiculous not to use EVERYTHING for the glory of God, including skilled musicians. I bet King David would not come into a CoC church. But maybe you would not let him in, because of his sin and history!

"When you arrive at Gibeah of God, where the garrison of the Philistines is located, you will meet a band of prophets coming down from the place of worship. They will be playing a harp, a tambourine, a flute, and a lyre, and they will be prophesying." 1 Sam. 10:5

"And all the people followed Solomon into Jerusalem, playing flutes and shouting for joy. The celebration was so joyous and noisy that the earth shook with the sound." 1 Kings 1:40

In the New Testament:

"Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantlythe woman was made well. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And when Jesus came to the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the crowd making a commotion, [SUP]24 [/SUP]he said, “Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him."

"If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played?" 1 Cor. 14:7

I know God has blessed me with a talent, and I look forward to playing for Good Friday and Easter Sunday morning.

(It also occurs to me that perhaps many were too poor to afford instruments in the Davidic style, or that they needed to sing quietly, for fear of rousing persecution from the neighbors??)
 
Feb 17, 2013
1,034
9
0
#28
All musical instruments were given to bring praise and glory to God. It is man who has allowed satan to pervert them to bring glory to him and preach his lie.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#29
All musical instruments were given to bring praise and glory to God. It is man who has allowed satan to pervert them to bring glory to him and preach his lie.
Like so much more God has given us we turn them into a tool for our glory singing 'ME-ME-ME-ME'
 
Apr 21, 2012
269
1
0
#30
We don't live under the Old Testament. If we do you better take it all and do it, sacrifices and all. The Old Testament was done away with when Christ died on the cross. We now live under the New Testament and go by the commands there. All of those scriptures mentioned by the one reply say "sing" not play on an instrument. Revelation is is prophetic and talks mostly of what is going to happen at a later date. We have to go by what the apostle taught.
Ma'am the old testament was not done away with, it was fulfilled. While it is true that the New testament is silent on the playing of instruments I could take your logic and apply it to technological advances could I not? what if I said the NT is silent on the driving of cars so we should walk everywhere?
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#31
But is the real question of whether one does or does not use instruments in worship or should the question be is our worship in Spirit and in truth? If one can not sing but yet can play an instrument is it wrong for that person to play that instrument or are we to do all things as unto the Lord? Which is to be more important the form of worship or what is at the heart of worship?
 

WordGaurdian

Senior Member
May 1, 2011
473
8
0
#32
Look. These guys had David as a forefather who danced, played a lute, a flute. And who even wrote songs that trumpets play along with. I am pretty sure as a nation the Jews knew how to sing and play musical instruments since they have been doing it for thousands of years for God. And as they started out, most of their congregation was Jews or semi-Jew. So if you asked who introduced them then you have to go before Noah, when the first musical instruments were being used.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#33
The historical discrepancy seems to come from the fact that the Jews used instruments in the Temple, and early christian churches were modelled on the synagogue. The Jerusalem church went to the Temple every day and met in their homes for prayer, breaking bread, and apostles instruction. Since the Temple music was there every day, they felt no obligation to have music in their homes. The likelihood is that if someone brought a harp or flute, they used it. Because they did not care if music was there or not, they did not write about it. After Jerusalem fell, churches were modelled on the home meetings, or rather, the writings about the home meetings. Insisting on instrumental music would have been impossible if no one played, and worhsipping by a "law" in any event. This happened over several generations, and new people simply grew up without instruments and did not question it.

Every instrument introduced has thus had to appeal to an OT passage. Some churches object that appealing to the OT is not worshipping "in Spirit and in truth". To my way of thinking, joy and corporate praise is the more important priority, as we are not under ANY law. I worship way better with a guitar or keyboard in front of me, and find it hard to live with churches that say we are to share our gifts and won't let me share mine.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#34
Since the OP asked about the history of instruments in church, I also wanted to sketch the history of the modern praise team, as I lived through most of it. Many younger posters here grew up with the praise team, and know of the organ only as "how old people's churches do it".

Only classical instruments (organ and symphony) were allowed in the Catholic church and thus in most mainline protestants. Smaller churches had "reed organs" (harmoniums) and later sometimes pianos in missions and for children's church. Even Vatican II in 1960 stated that guitar would be permitted by way of suffrance as an outreach, but the organ was the definitive instrument of Catholic worship. Even the first guitar hymn (Silent Night) was written only because the organ was broken, and no repairman could be found on Christmas Eve.

The guitar makes its appearance in the camp meetings of the Civil War. Battlefield demanded outdoor worship, which demanded portable instruments. Cowboys sometimes carried guitars and harmonicas. In the 1940's, a worldwide outreach movement to teens pioneered Saturday night services with "combo" bands, guitar, acoustic bass, light percussion, trumpet, sax, or whatever.

The guitar came into the Catholic and Episcopal churches in about 1962, with Lutheran, Methodist, and a few others following. The idea was as outreach to people in those mission areas (like the US) too backward to understand the organ. Part of this was the purpose of opening up the use of native drums in African Catholic services. Indigenous instruments were to be used as outreach. The postwar baby-boom increased the young people on college campuses, and created plenty of demand for the new music at services. At this point, it was all to share gifts of joy and creativity, and "guitar choirs" could have 20 people in them, many instruments, and played simpler music based on chord structures. I led many of these, and played acoustic bass and banjo, as well as organ in keyboard style with them.

The charismatic renewal started among college students in 1966. The "Spirit filled" catholics became interdenominational, and used guitar choirs as more informal, and portable music. They also invented the new worship order of a period of praise and worship music followed by prayer, prophecy, and sermon, replacing the old complex order of the mass and mainline services. The music was exclusively acoustic.

The movie "Change of Habit" went a long way to popularizing what a guitar could do in church. In 1969, Elvis Presley led a rock and roll combo in the entrance hymn at a Catholic mass in the last scene.

The charismtic renewal joined their prayer group service and the traditional service in the "charismatic mass", some of which are still being done here and there. A traditional service order is preceded by ten minutes or so of praise and worship music, and the acoustic guitar group leds all the hymns. Time is created for prophecy and healing prayer. My wife's music group originated from this advance. This proved the prayer meeting music could work in a large church.

By 1980 or so, the Catholics rejected the charismatic renewal, and lost most of the leadership. Many leaders opened their own churches, and took the prayer meeting music with them. This was the invention of the non-denom church. The next generation brought in drums and electronics.

The need for new music created "Hosanna! Integrity" which gave rise to "CCLI", and a new musical culture. The development of computerized recording and large screen TV display linked with the electronic music ministries of today. Time worked its magic and now there is a certain agreement about which music you will use, how many guitars you will have, how many singers, etc.

Home groups and small churches frequently stop anywhere along this trail of development and have anything from no instruments, acoustic combos, solo pianists, or mp3 players leading their music.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#35
Personally I'd favor acapella these days, but I won't make musical instruments a divisional issue.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,234
6,530
113
#36
Psa 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Psa 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
Psa 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
Psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Psa 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psa 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
Psa 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#38
Since the OP asked about the history of instruments in church, I also wanted to sketch the history of the modern praise team, as I lived through most of it. Many younger posters here grew up with the praise team, and know of the organ only as "how old people's churches do it".

Only classical instruments (organ and symphony) were allowed in the Catholic church and thus in most mainline protestants. Smaller churches had "reed organs" (harmoniums) and later sometimes pianos in missions and for children's church. Even Vatican II in 1960 stated that guitar would be permitted by way of suffrance as an outreach, but the organ was the definitive instrument of Catholic worship. Even the first guitar hymn (Silent Night) was written only because the organ was broken, and no repairman could be found on Christmas Eve.

The guitar makes its appearance in the camp meetings of the Civil War. Battlefield demanded outdoor worship, which demanded portable instruments. Cowboys sometimes carried guitars and harmonicas. In the 1940's, a worldwide outreach movement to teens pioneered Saturday night services with "combo" bands, guitar, acoustic bass, light percussion, trumpet, sax, or whatever.

The guitar came into the Catholic and Episcopal churches in about 1962, with Lutheran, Methodist, and a few others following. The idea was as outreach to people in those mission areas (like the US) too backward to understand the organ. Part of this was the purpose of opening up the use of native drums in African Catholic services. Indigenous instruments were to be used as outreach. The postwar baby-boom increased the young people on college campuses, and created plenty of demand for the new music at services. At this point, it was all to share gifts of joy and creativity, and "guitar choirs" could have 20 people in them, many instruments, and played simpler music based on chord structures. I led many of these, and played acoustic bass and banjo, as well as organ in keyboard style with them.

The charismatic renewal started among college students in 1966. The "Spirit filled" catholics became interdenominational, and used guitar choirs as more informal, and portable music. They also invented the new worship order of a period of praise and worship music followed by prayer, prophecy, and sermon, replacing the old complex order of the mass and mainline services. The music was exclusively acoustic.

The movie "Change of Habit" went a long way to popularizing what a guitar could do in church. In 1969, Elvis Presley led a rock and roll combo in the entrance hymn at a Catholic mass in the last scene.

The charismtic renewal joined their prayer group service and the traditional service in the "charismatic mass", some of which are still being done here and there. A traditional service order is preceded by ten minutes or so of praise and worship music, and the acoustic guitar group leds all the hymns. Time is created for prophecy and healing prayer. My wife's music group originated from this advance. This proved the prayer meeting music could work in a large church.

By 1980 or so, the Catholics rejected the charismatic renewal, and lost most of the leadership. Many leaders opened their own churches, and took the prayer meeting music with them. This was the invention of the non-denom church. The next generation brought in drums and electronics.

The need for new music created "Hosanna! Integrity" which gave rise to "CCLI", and a new musical culture. The development of computerized recording and large screen TV display linked with the electronic music ministries of today. Time worked its magic and now there is a certain agreement about which music you will use, how many guitars you will have, how many singers, etc.

Home groups and small churches frequently stop anywhere along this trail of development and have anything from no instruments, acoustic combos, solo pianists, or mp3 players leading their music.
I think you missed the Baroque period (1650-1750)many Churches esp. Lutheran had a wide variety of instruments as well as instrumental and vocal arrangements after which the music started to secularize in the Classical era.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#39
I think you missed the Baroque period (1650-1750)many Churches esp. Lutheran had a wide variety of instruments as well as instrumental and vocal arrangements after which the music started to secularize in the Classical era.
When they put the piano in place of the harpsachord......thats when it went downwhill:(
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#40
I think you missed the Baroque period (1650-1750)many Churches esp. Lutheran had a wide variety of instruments as well as instrumental and vocal arrangements after which the music started to secularize in the Classical era.
Look closely, I said organ and "symphony instruments". To my knowledge, I don't think guitars or lutes or their predecessors, or drum kits, were ever scored by Bach or any of his contemporaries.