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Mailmandan
We ALMOST agree. Everything you say above is what I also said in my post.
The difference, as I see it, is in your very first sentence.
You say we are saved by faith. Okay.
You say we are kept by faith, and NOT by works.
This is not correct. Works are a necessary part of salvation.
BUT then you continue on to agree with everything I said regarding works.
So, yes, I'm a bit confused. Are works necessary or not??
I get saved...
Then I refuse to do anything and rely only on my faith.
Is this what Jesus said?
Or did He say TO DO?
Fran
We ALMOST agree. Everything you say above is what I also said in my post.
The difference, as I see it, is in your very first sentence.
You say we are saved by faith. Okay.
You say we are kept by faith, and NOT by works.
This is not correct. Works are a necessary part of salvation.
BUT then you continue on to agree with everything I said regarding works.
So, yes, I'm a bit confused. Are works necessary or not??
I get saved...
Then I refuse to do anything and rely only on my faith.
Is this what Jesus said?
Or did He say TO DO?
Fran
Did you know FranC that the Catholic Church teaches Salvation is only received IF you are in the Catholic Church. Outside of the Catholic Church no one can receive Salvation.
Also how about Purgatory? The Catholic Church teaches one has to spend time in Purgatory to work off the stains of their sins. The Catholic Church believes God is limited in His powers.
How can one work to keep their Salvation if Salvation was received by Grace and Faith and not by works?
You really need to listen to the Holy Spirit FranC and see what He says before posting what you want to say.
Ephesians 2:8,9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Also how about Purgatory? The Catholic Church teaches one has to spend time in Purgatory to work off the stains of their sins. The Catholic Church believes God is limited in His powers.
How can one work to keep their Salvation if Salvation was received by Grace and Faith and not by works?
You really need to listen to the Holy Spirit FranC and see what He says before posting what you want to say.
Ephesians 2:8,9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
vdp
I don't know you, but I'll post what I wish to say, just as you do, if you don't mind.
Your first statement is incorrect. Those outside the CC can be saved. See CCC no. 1271 (Cathechism of the Catholic Church).
Your statement re purgatory is correct. I'm not Catholic and do not agree with this doctrine precisely for the reason that you state.
Regarding working to keep your salvation:
While I'm busy listening to the Holy Spirit, you do the same - read up on Sanctification and then come back here and let us know what it is and how it's kept and also please explain if you can have Justification without Sanctification.
Fran
I don't know you, but I'll post what I wish to say, just as you do, if you don't mind.
Your first statement is incorrect. Those outside the CC can be saved. See CCC no. 1271 (Cathechism of the Catholic Church).
Your statement re purgatory is correct. I'm not Catholic and do not agree with this doctrine precisely for the reason that you state.
Regarding working to keep your salvation:
While I'm busy listening to the Holy Spirit, you do the same - read up on Sanctification and then come back here and let us know what it is and how it's kept and also please explain if you can have Justification without Sanctification.
Fran
Works are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. When you say that works are a necessary part of salvation, you are saying that works in part help to save us. That would be incorrect. There is no such thing as, "I have faith but I do absolutely nothing." That would not be genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14-18). All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Do you agree?
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Do you agree?
Amen..good one.
An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?
To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.
A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life.
The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol will condemn the ones that do and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.
Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?
What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.
I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!
An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?
To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.
A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life.
The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol will condemn the ones that do and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.
Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?
What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.
I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!
E
when I have tried to discuss works with a catholic. I usually am taken to this passage to prove they do not teach works for salvation..
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Grace is the pipeline from which these works are accomplished, and these works work to save you.
at least the few I have spoken with.
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Grace is the pipeline from which these works are accomplished, and these works work to save you.
at least the few I have spoken with.
Hi EG,
Not all Catholics have a good understanding of what their church teaches. It's kind of like asking a Protestant a specific question - you'll get different answers.
The only way to know the teachings of the CC is to go directly to those teachings. They're contained in the CCC or Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It's interesting that you're sent to Galatians 5:6 since it's clearly stating that you can be saved with or without circumcision and since circumcision is an O.T. work, that does show that works are not necessary for salvation since we are now under the New Covenant. But it DOES say "faith working through love." This simply means that whatever we do, we are to do it with love. And if we're serving God, we WILL do all our works with love. So, IOW, they are affirming to you that works are not necessary for salvation.
To show that the CC does, in fact, teach this, we could us the CCC no. 124 and no. 161:
124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament"[SUP]96[/SUP] which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.[SUP]97
[/SUP]161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.[SUP]42[/SUP] "Since "without faith it is impossible to please (God) " and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"]
But then you say that these works "work to save you". It is NOT to save you, but to sanctify. Sanctification does require works - cooperating with God.
As far as grace being the "pipeline", yes, they do believe this and also that grace is obtained through the sacraments.
I'd have to agree. We need the Holy Spirit and God's grace to live in obedience to Jesus. I don't agree that grace comes through the sacraments but is readily available to all and at any moment of the day as God showers His grace on all of us.
Here's what the CCC says about grace. (and much more...)
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."[SUP]53[/SUP] Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.[SUP]54
[/SUP]I wouldn't say that they think that works save you, but that they keep you saved.
Pretty much what we believe. There's is NOTHING you can do that would save you of your own effort.
However, we ARE known by the fruit we bear.
Sorry if I posted too much.
Fran
Not all Catholics have a good understanding of what their church teaches. It's kind of like asking a Protestant a specific question - you'll get different answers.
The only way to know the teachings of the CC is to go directly to those teachings. They're contained in the CCC or Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It's interesting that you're sent to Galatians 5:6 since it's clearly stating that you can be saved with or without circumcision and since circumcision is an O.T. work, that does show that works are not necessary for salvation since we are now under the New Covenant. But it DOES say "faith working through love." This simply means that whatever we do, we are to do it with love. And if we're serving God, we WILL do all our works with love. So, IOW, they are affirming to you that works are not necessary for salvation.
To show that the CC does, in fact, teach this, we could us the CCC no. 124 and no. 161:
124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament"[SUP]96[/SUP] which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.[SUP]97
[/SUP]161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.[SUP]42[/SUP] "Since "without faith it is impossible to please (God) " and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"]
But then you say that these works "work to save you". It is NOT to save you, but to sanctify. Sanctification does require works - cooperating with God.
As far as grace being the "pipeline", yes, they do believe this and also that grace is obtained through the sacraments.
I'd have to agree. We need the Holy Spirit and God's grace to live in obedience to Jesus. I don't agree that grace comes through the sacraments but is readily available to all and at any moment of the day as God showers His grace on all of us.
Here's what the CCC says about grace. (and much more...)
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."[SUP]53[/SUP] Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.[SUP]54
[/SUP]I wouldn't say that they think that works save you, but that they keep you saved.
Pretty much what we believe. There's is NOTHING you can do that would save you of your own effort.
However, we ARE known by the fruit we bear.
Sorry if I posted too much.
Fran
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Praise the Lord! 
Originally you said that we are kept by works and that works are a necessary part of salvation which clearly sounds like you meant that works are a means to salvation, or justification.
Yes, there is the key word. Works are a RESULT of it.
Originally you said that we are kept by works and that works are a necessary part of salvation which clearly sounds like you meant that works are a means to salvation, or justification.
Yes, there is the key word. Works are a RESULT of it.
BTW, if I said "works are a necessary part of salvation" (and thus Justification) I misspoke.
Works are a necessary part of Sanctification.
Fran
Talking about Catholics FranC, how can one say they are a True Christian doing the will of the Father when they are on their knees before a statue of Mary praying to Mary?
Can a person who prays to Mary enter into Heaven? No. Because praying to Mary is Idolatry. Praying the Hail Mary and praying the Rosary will keep one from entering into Heaven.
Too many people want the doctrine of working for and keeping their Salvation by works because this puts them in the limelight and not God. People love to boast about their works. We do works because we have received Salvation. We do works that help others who are in need.
We cannot receive nor keep our Salvation by our works. Beside who's to say which good works you do will allow you to keep your Salvation. What you may see as a good work, God may say its trash. Its the True Christian who puts God in the limelight and not themselves.
Can a person who prays to Mary enter into Heaven? No. Because praying to Mary is Idolatry. Praying the Hail Mary and praying the Rosary will keep one from entering into Heaven.
Too many people want the doctrine of working for and keeping their Salvation by works because this puts them in the limelight and not God. People love to boast about their works. We do works because we have received Salvation. We do works that help others who are in need.
We cannot receive nor keep our Salvation by our works. Beside who's to say which good works you do will allow you to keep your Salvation. What you may see as a good work, God may say its trash. Its the True Christian who puts God in the limelight and not themselves.
Hi Mike,
Your post is short but it brings up some complex issues.
Catholics are not supposed to be praying to Mary. They're supposed to be asking for intercession. But the CC does not teach very well and most of its parishoners are not interested in knowing too much. They have just recently begun having bible studies. This is one of the reasons I left that church. I had become born again and it offered nothing for me so I looked elsewhere.
So the question should really be - why do we need intercessory prayer when we could go straight to God?
Jesus is the one true Mediator. 1 Timothy 2:5
It's unfortunate that attention is taken away from the Lord.
I cannot agree with you here. If you're right, many of US are also not going to heaven! Why? Because many of us believe in incorrect doctrine. IOW, I don't believe it's your doctrine that saves you, but you're belief and trust in the Creator, God the Father, who also encompasses Jesus, if you believe in the Trinity or Godhead.
So if they've been taught to pray to Mary, and don't understand about idolotry, but are following their heart, surely God will be a just God and take this into consideration.
We disagree somewhat here too.
I agree that we cannot receive salvation by works. Ephesians 2:8 Acts 2:21
I agree that we do works BECAUSE we have received salvation, and to help others that are in need.
If people do works to be in the limelight, that's pride and is a sin. As many sins come from pride --
Some may do this, but know what? They're saved too! Because God can forgive all sin, even the sin of pride.
So, you say that we do WORKS to help others, but then you continue on to say that we cannot keep our salvation by works. This is where I disagree. ALL good works are good - it's not that some are unto retention of salvation and some are not. We can only do our best - we cannot do more than that. God knows our heart. And a "true Christian" (I don't like that term) always puts God first and not himself. But, even here, we could make a mistake.
So, yes, I do believe that we are required to do works if we are to be disciples of Jesus.
Do you think we are NOT to do good works??
Fran
Your post is short but it brings up some complex issues.
Catholics are not supposed to be praying to Mary. They're supposed to be asking for intercession. But the CC does not teach very well and most of its parishoners are not interested in knowing too much. They have just recently begun having bible studies. This is one of the reasons I left that church. I had become born again and it offered nothing for me so I looked elsewhere.
So the question should really be - why do we need intercessory prayer when we could go straight to God?
Jesus is the one true Mediator. 1 Timothy 2:5
It's unfortunate that attention is taken away from the Lord.
I cannot agree with you here. If you're right, many of US are also not going to heaven! Why? Because many of us believe in incorrect doctrine. IOW, I don't believe it's your doctrine that saves you, but you're belief and trust in the Creator, God the Father, who also encompasses Jesus, if you believe in the Trinity or Godhead.
So if they've been taught to pray to Mary, and don't understand about idolotry, but are following their heart, surely God will be a just God and take this into consideration.
We disagree somewhat here too.
I agree that we cannot receive salvation by works. Ephesians 2:8 Acts 2:21
I agree that we do works BECAUSE we have received salvation, and to help others that are in need.
If people do works to be in the limelight, that's pride and is a sin. As many sins come from pride --
Some may do this, but know what? They're saved too! Because God can forgive all sin, even the sin of pride.
So, you say that we do WORKS to help others, but then you continue on to say that we cannot keep our salvation by works. This is where I disagree. ALL good works are good - it's not that some are unto retention of salvation and some are not. We can only do our best - we cannot do more than that. God knows our heart. And a "true Christian" (I don't like that term) always puts God first and not himself. But, even here, we could make a mistake.
So, yes, I do believe that we are required to do works if we are to be disciples of Jesus.
Do you think we are NOT to do good works??
Fran