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C
If it isn't what he meant, then his statement that "if all you have is knowledge of Scripture..." seems obviously false.
So he was either implying that the Holy Spirit doesn't work through Scripture or his statement was obviously false.
By assuming that he meant the Spirit does not work through Scripture and showing that the Holy Spirit does work through Scripture I could kill two birds with one stone.
You have two things going on here: what God does and what God can do. Of course God can speak through whatever means he wants, a donkey, for example. But I would say God's normal mode of speaking is through Scripture.
You're reading things into my comment that aren't there. I just said it was interesting that Paul didn't make a big deal about this only being done through the Holy Spirit. VW seems to think it's a point that needs to be made in every single post.
I addressed your previous reply.
This statement is too general to be of much use. For example, there is a guy on this forum claiming Satan is Adam. I know a guy who claims Satan had sex with Eve.
Should we keep those interpretations as live options because, after all, you never know when the Holy Spirit might show you it is true.
Arius, as someone in this thread has pointed out, though Jesus wasn't God. Should that be a live option for us?
Some people think Jesus isn't the Messiah, according to Scripture. Should that be a live option?
Of course there are some things that we may come to recognize later that we don't recognize now. But that's so general it's trivial.
A point I've made myself now on several occasions. Which makes me curious why some people think they should repeat it back to me so often.
So he was either implying that the Holy Spirit doesn't work through Scripture or his statement was obviously false.
By assuming that he meant the Spirit does not work through Scripture and showing that the Holy Spirit does work through Scripture I could kill two birds with one stone.
You have two things going on here: what God does and what God can do. Of course God can speak through whatever means he wants, a donkey, for example. But I would say God's normal mode of speaking is through Scripture.
You're reading things into my comment that aren't there. I just said it was interesting that Paul didn't make a big deal about this only being done through the Holy Spirit. VW seems to think it's a point that needs to be made in every single post.
I addressed your previous reply.
This statement is too general to be of much use. For example, there is a guy on this forum claiming Satan is Adam. I know a guy who claims Satan had sex with Eve.
Should we keep those interpretations as live options because, after all, you never know when the Holy Spirit might show you it is true.
Arius, as someone in this thread has pointed out, though Jesus wasn't God. Should that be a live option for us?
Some people think Jesus isn't the Messiah, according to Scripture. Should that be a live option?
Of course there are some things that we may come to recognize later that we don't recognize now. But that's so general it's trivial.
A point I've made myself now on several occasions. Which makes me curious why some people think they should repeat it back to me so often.
I answered, just in a way that is not accepted. I don't like the way that multiquote is used, as I sometimes miss parts of posts when I am replying.
I have not even allowed my pride to come into this.
I don't think that I have been shown scripture which refutes what I am trying so poorly to say.
And I do love you in His love.
I have not even allowed my pride to come into this.
I don't think that I have been shown scripture which refutes what I am trying so poorly to say.
And I do love you in His love.
M
John 6:44(NASB)(emphasis mine)
1 John 4:19(NASB)
John 15:5(NASB)(emphasis mine)
It seems pretty clear that none of us can take even an inch of credit for us coming to know Jesus. We were drawn to read the Bible and to come to Jesus because the Father drew us in. We have fruit in our lives solely because of Jesus.
I answered this already. If something doesn't interest you intellectually, do you stray away from it? This can be dangerous, especially when reading the Bible. The Bible is not meant solely to be understood intellectually, but something to be deposited in your spirit man.
A very simplistic way of describing it in my opinion.
Agreed.
A lot of the stuff taught by that ministry I believe is not biblical. The Grace message must be taught with the Repentance from sin message.
This is a moot point because the Bible does teach us to do this. In fact Jesus commanded us to do it:
Matthew 10:7-8
John 14:11-13
Mark 16:15-18
I could quote Jesus all day.... It seems pretty clear to me that this is what we are supposed to be doing. Why isn't it happening in most places in the western church? I believe because we don't believe what is right in front of us in the Bible. These are Jesus' words. Jesus is smart enough to be intentional about the words He uses, as He knows people will be reading them for a while.
I do agree that there are some ministries who do this. But since when does it mean we can overlook a part of the Bible? Just because another ministry misuses what Jesus gave us doesn't mean it excuses us to not do it. Though, I agree that people getting saved is extremely important.
Here is my testimony from a recent missions trip to Mexico:
Two months ago I went to Tijuana, Mexico with a group of people from my church. We did street ministry and held services at the local churches. During our time there we spent one night in the middle of the worst part of town, in the middle of the red light district. We went there and set up on a stage they have in the middle of the square there.
As soon as we started worshiping God people flocked to the stage. We started preaching the good news of Jesus and the Kingdom of God to them and many people were getting healed of all kinds of injuries and diseases. One man that I prayed for had a torn ligament in his leg. We prayed for him and after an hour or so he was walking perfectly on his leg without his crutches. He was so touched that he asked if he could translate for us as we went into the streets. That night around 70 people repented and gave their lives to Jesus in the middle of the worst part of town.
A friend who was with me on the trip went in front of a strip club where a pimp was standing. He started getting words of knowledge for the guy and the guy starts balling in tears as my friend talks about the guy's life, what he is currently going through, and the destiny and plan God has for him. Later two of the strippers come out on a break. My friend gets more words of knowledge for the strippers, and now the strippers are crying and asking all kinds of questions about who Jesus is. They end up giving their lives to Jesus.
So would these people have given their lives to God if God hadn't shown Himself to them through prophesy and signs and wonders? Probably not. This is just one example of how we can cooperate with God to use them correctly. The mistake a lot of people make is letting the end all be to display signs and wonders. They are supposed to be signs that make you wonder about Jesus. Signs and wonders are expressions of God's Love and that is what they should be seen as, so we can cooperate with the Holy Spirit to display them.
Blessings,
Machew
1 John 4:19(NASB)
John 15:5(NASB)(emphasis mine)
It seems pretty clear that none of us can take even an inch of credit for us coming to know Jesus. We were drawn to read the Bible and to come to Jesus because the Father drew us in. We have fruit in our lives solely because of Jesus.
I answered this already. If something doesn't interest you intellectually, do you stray away from it? This can be dangerous, especially when reading the Bible. The Bible is not meant solely to be understood intellectually, but something to be deposited in your spirit man.
A very simplistic way of describing it in my opinion.
Agreed.
A lot of the stuff taught by that ministry I believe is not biblical. The Grace message must be taught with the Repentance from sin message.
This is a moot point because the Bible does teach us to do this. In fact Jesus commanded us to do it:
Matthew 10:7-8
John 14:11-13
Mark 16:15-18
I could quote Jesus all day.... It seems pretty clear to me that this is what we are supposed to be doing. Why isn't it happening in most places in the western church? I believe because we don't believe what is right in front of us in the Bible. These are Jesus' words. Jesus is smart enough to be intentional about the words He uses, as He knows people will be reading them for a while.
I do agree that there are some ministries who do this. But since when does it mean we can overlook a part of the Bible? Just because another ministry misuses what Jesus gave us doesn't mean it excuses us to not do it. Though, I agree that people getting saved is extremely important.
Here is my testimony from a recent missions trip to Mexico:
Two months ago I went to Tijuana, Mexico with a group of people from my church. We did street ministry and held services at the local churches. During our time there we spent one night in the middle of the worst part of town, in the middle of the red light district. We went there and set up on a stage they have in the middle of the square there.
As soon as we started worshiping God people flocked to the stage. We started preaching the good news of Jesus and the Kingdom of God to them and many people were getting healed of all kinds of injuries and diseases. One man that I prayed for had a torn ligament in his leg. We prayed for him and after an hour or so he was walking perfectly on his leg without his crutches. He was so touched that he asked if he could translate for us as we went into the streets. That night around 70 people repented and gave their lives to Jesus in the middle of the worst part of town.
A friend who was with me on the trip went in front of a strip club where a pimp was standing. He started getting words of knowledge for the guy and the guy starts balling in tears as my friend talks about the guy's life, what he is currently going through, and the destiny and plan God has for him. Later two of the strippers come out on a break. My friend gets more words of knowledge for the strippers, and now the strippers are crying and asking all kinds of questions about who Jesus is. They end up giving their lives to Jesus.
So would these people have given their lives to God if God hadn't shown Himself to them through prophesy and signs and wonders? Probably not. This is just one example of how we can cooperate with God to use them correctly. The mistake a lot of people make is letting the end all be to display signs and wonders. They are supposed to be signs that make you wonder about Jesus. Signs and wonders are expressions of God's Love and that is what they should be seen as, so we can cooperate with the Holy Spirit to display them.
Blessings,
Machew
M
You misunderstand me. When I post I assume that you know that I stick with the essential doctrines of the faith.
The deity of Jesus, the cross as the atoning sacrifice for all sin, the death and resurrection of Jesus, Jesus as the Son of God and co-equal in the Trinity With God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, there is only One true God (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), etc....
I suppose I should have stated this earlier, but if something contradicts an essential doctrine of the Bible, then it is easy to recognize something as not from God. But my point all along has been that we don't recognize and understand these essential doctrines of our faith without the help of the Holy Spirit.
Blessings,
Machew
The deity of Jesus, the cross as the atoning sacrifice for all sin, the death and resurrection of Jesus, Jesus as the Son of God and co-equal in the Trinity With God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, there is only One true God (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), etc....
I suppose I should have stated this earlier, but if something contradicts an essential doctrine of the Bible, then it is easy to recognize something as not from God. But my point all along has been that we don't recognize and understand these essential doctrines of our faith without the help of the Holy Spirit.
Blessings,
Machew
C
I agree with this. In fact I'm Reformed in my theology, as I've stated other places. My question was whether you believed all persons were drawn in the same manner to the same degree. That's why I said "If it's the latter..." because if everyone receives this exact same "drawing" then the point has no more significance than my Three Stooges analogy.
"Uninteresting" is a polite way in certain literature to say that it doesn't have much significance to the topic at hand. Sorry for my use of a vague term.
Dude, how did I know you wouldn't be able to resist repeating this again?
I did that on purpose. I was looking in VW's direction (he said: "I really liked what machew said above, that scripture means one thing today, and years later it can mean something else").
It was a hypothetical scenario. You can't dismiss the value of a hypothetical scenario simply by pointing out what *is* the case. In fact that misses the point of the hypothetical.
But I hope you aren't "brushing" off what doesn't sit well with your understanding of Jesus' words here.
Not sure what you mean. What part of the Bible is being overlooked? Your healing thing? Well the persons who "overlook" it don't think they are overlooking. They just interpret those Scripture differently.
That seems unwarranted to me. But thanks for sharing.
"Uninteresting" is a polite way in certain literature to say that it doesn't have much significance to the topic at hand. Sorry for my use of a vague term.
Dude, how did I know you wouldn't be able to resist repeating this again?
I did that on purpose. I was looking in VW's direction (he said: "I really liked what machew said above, that scripture means one thing today, and years later it can mean something else").
It was a hypothetical scenario. You can't dismiss the value of a hypothetical scenario simply by pointing out what *is* the case. In fact that misses the point of the hypothetical.
But I hope you aren't "brushing" off what doesn't sit well with your understanding of Jesus' words here.
Not sure what you mean. What part of the Bible is being overlooked? Your healing thing? Well the persons who "overlook" it don't think they are overlooking. They just interpret those Scripture differently.
That seems unwarranted to me. But thanks for sharing.
C
I wasn't saying you thought we could brush off the deity of Christ, in fact I was sure you weren't saying that, that's why I used it as an example *to illustrate that your statement is too general* (that's what I said in the post: it's too general, not that you would brush off the deity of Christ).
But this doesn't give an adequate response to examples that weren't based on essentials. Or at least they aren't obvious essentials.
For example, again, the man who says Adam is the Devil. I'm not sure I'm willing to say that this guy isn't saved, even though I think he has a dangerous hermeneutic that *could* be used to prop up all sorts of heresies.
What about the guy I know who says Satan had sex with Eve? Again, I'm not sure he isn't saved, even though his method of interpreting Scripture seems fallacious and maybe even dangerous.
Those aren't essentials. Do we leave them open as live options simply because they aren't essentials?
But this doesn't give an adequate response to examples that weren't based on essentials. Or at least they aren't obvious essentials.
For example, again, the man who says Adam is the Devil. I'm not sure I'm willing to say that this guy isn't saved, even though I think he has a dangerous hermeneutic that *could* be used to prop up all sorts of heresies.
What about the guy I know who says Satan had sex with Eve? Again, I'm not sure he isn't saved, even though his method of interpreting Scripture seems fallacious and maybe even dangerous.
Those aren't essentials. Do we leave them open as live options simply because they aren't essentials?
When we stand before Jesus in that day, the words that some who knew about Him, but did not know Him, did not seek to be known by Him, will be their ruin. He will say to them, "I never knew you."
I have heard those words. I did not seek to be known by Him, but I called myself by His name. But how could I make myself to be known by Him?
One thing happened to show me the error of my beliefs and of my unfaithful heart. I was shown the reality of my life as God saw it, what the truth of my beliefs and of the hidden places in my heart looked like to Him. These things are in the scriptures, if one is lead to them by the Spirit.
In our seeking to have a relationship and from there a better and more truthful relationship with God through Jesus, one thing is paramount to ensure a successful outcome, and it is not knowledge. God desires honesty from the inner man, from the deepest parts of our heart. And in truth, we do not really know ourselves, we think that we do, but we don't. We make excuses for the things we allow, and we allow things we know are not right, and we are assured in our hearts that we know the truth about ourselves and about God, but have not actually gone to Him to be shown. Jesus came to save us, but the thing we need to be saved from most is our ability to lie to ourselves, to prevaricate about who and what we are.
Jesus came to the world as the light of the world. But men hated the light. Why? For the same reason that the children of Jacob hated God's voice, and asked Moses to speak to them for God, because they did not want to be close enough to Him to hear Him. So through Moses, a priesthood was brought into existence. God did not desire this outcome; He knew it would come about, but He never wished for people to be separated from Him.
Jesus came into the world to give us life, and that more abundantly. Life is God's domain alone. God has life in Himself, such that He calls to those dead and they come to life again. He has given to Jesus to have life in Himself. And so that all might glorify Him, the Father has given to Jesus all authority. But what is life? Is what we have now in the flesh life? Jesus said that the hour has come when the dead will hear His voice, and those who hear will live. Did we hear His voice? Are we alive, in Him?
Jesus came into the world because of love, because God is love. He is the express image of God, and of His love. Jesus gave us one commandment, simple, but impossible unless we have much help. To love one another even as He has loved us. This is only possible with the love of God through us.
So, everyone who is alive in Jesus is alive because they have heard His voice. And everyone who obeys Jesus does so by and in the Spirit, by whom the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts.
My prayer is that we come to seek and desire to be known by Him, to find His light which dispels the darkness in us, in our hearts, so that we can become light in Him, that the world would see that Jesus has truly come. For as He said, if we have love for one another, the world will know that we are His disciples.
In His love, with humility knowing that I cannot love as I should, but with thanks to the Spirit of Christ,
vic
I have heard those words. I did not seek to be known by Him, but I called myself by His name. But how could I make myself to be known by Him?
One thing happened to show me the error of my beliefs and of my unfaithful heart. I was shown the reality of my life as God saw it, what the truth of my beliefs and of the hidden places in my heart looked like to Him. These things are in the scriptures, if one is lead to them by the Spirit.
In our seeking to have a relationship and from there a better and more truthful relationship with God through Jesus, one thing is paramount to ensure a successful outcome, and it is not knowledge. God desires honesty from the inner man, from the deepest parts of our heart. And in truth, we do not really know ourselves, we think that we do, but we don't. We make excuses for the things we allow, and we allow things we know are not right, and we are assured in our hearts that we know the truth about ourselves and about God, but have not actually gone to Him to be shown. Jesus came to save us, but the thing we need to be saved from most is our ability to lie to ourselves, to prevaricate about who and what we are.
Jesus came to the world as the light of the world. But men hated the light. Why? For the same reason that the children of Jacob hated God's voice, and asked Moses to speak to them for God, because they did not want to be close enough to Him to hear Him. So through Moses, a priesthood was brought into existence. God did not desire this outcome; He knew it would come about, but He never wished for people to be separated from Him.
Jesus came into the world to give us life, and that more abundantly. Life is God's domain alone. God has life in Himself, such that He calls to those dead and they come to life again. He has given to Jesus to have life in Himself. And so that all might glorify Him, the Father has given to Jesus all authority. But what is life? Is what we have now in the flesh life? Jesus said that the hour has come when the dead will hear His voice, and those who hear will live. Did we hear His voice? Are we alive, in Him?
Jesus came into the world because of love, because God is love. He is the express image of God, and of His love. Jesus gave us one commandment, simple, but impossible unless we have much help. To love one another even as He has loved us. This is only possible with the love of God through us.
So, everyone who is alive in Jesus is alive because they have heard His voice. And everyone who obeys Jesus does so by and in the Spirit, by whom the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts.
My prayer is that we come to seek and desire to be known by Him, to find His light which dispels the darkness in us, in our hearts, so that we can become light in Him, that the world would see that Jesus has truly come. For as He said, if we have love for one another, the world will know that we are His disciples.
In His love, with humility knowing that I cannot love as I should, but with thanks to the Spirit of Christ,
vic
C
And since this seems to have gotten way off topic (now it's all about the role of the Holy Spirit in understanding Scripture (with redundant claims be made that no one disagrees with), I'll simply give you the last word, Machew.
(Unless of course you say something that simply begs for a response. And this only applies to Machew and the "role of the HS in interpreting Scripture" thing.)
(Unless of course you say something that simply begs for a response. And this only applies to Machew and the "role of the HS in interpreting Scripture" thing.)
This feeling that you had about me VW. That I love the scripture and the church organisation more than Jesus. I don't go to church so I think you may have got that slightly wrong. But it does prove my point. You do seem to think you can discern much I would say by the Spirit. Could it be that due tob your unhappy experiances in church your natural mind is more led to this thinking? Just a thought
You read wrong. I did not say that you loved the scripture and church organization more than Jesus, but that you were susceptible to that way of understanding. You agreed with credo, and his thought are plain. Scripture is paramount in our understanding, and the basis of our truth. Sadly, the entire church is built on this premise.
What makes you think that I had bad experiences in church. Actually, my church experience has had very little effect upon what I think or believe.
I tend to distrust my natural mind.
Well, you have often stated that churches you went to didn't preach the truth and for your spiritual well being I believe you said that you had to leave them. I would call that bad experiances of church, wouldn't you? Personally I do believe that scripture is what God uses to teach us by the Spirit, yes.
You say 'sadly the entire church is built on this premise'. So you are saying you know more than the entire church aren't you? So am I so wrong in my comments to you?
I think the best way to settle debates is to read the experience of the old saints. We have so much written testimony from people who overcame sin and lived world-changing lives for God. Let's compare our Bible interpretations to their experiences.
Sure, even the great saints couldn't agree on everything, but regarding the most important things - such as salvation by faith alone - there is no disagreement.
Salvation by faith alone is Christianity. There is no other religion in this world - so far as I am aware - that believes in salvation by faith alone. Salvation from both the power and consequences of sin by faith alone.
Sadly though, most Christians have no idea what salvation by faith alone means.
Quest
C
Thanks, QuestionTime. This is good advice (although I wouldn't say it all we've got).
It reminds me of a quote by Charles Spurgeon: "‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎Never Be ashamed of taking a leaf out of another man’s experience book. If thou canst find no good leaf in thine own, tear one out of someone’s else" (from his sermon "Songs in the Night").
It reminds me of a quote by Charles Spurgeon: "‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎Never Be ashamed of taking a leaf out of another man’s experience book. If thou canst find no good leaf in thine own, tear one out of someone’s else" (from his sermon "Songs in the Night").
All I can say is that I am very sad in my heart at how you perceive my words. I had no idea that I appeared concieted, or as one who knows everything. I was under the impression that we shared a common love and understanding in the Spirit. That you see me in the way you say is distressing. I can only say that everything I write is from my heart.
I am sorry that I thought about you the way I did.
C
This is why I try to stay away from going ad hominem (and not just in the fallacious sense).
It's pointless really. Whether someone claimed such and such because they are prideful or whether they claimed such and such because they are uneducated or whether they claimed such and such because their heart is right (or not right) with God.... who cares. Look, if you're know the person personally (you're their friend or in their church family) then these sort of personally issues might be something to consider. But from what I can see, in a forum setting, the "such and such" is either true or false (although I suppose it could be meaningless). Either way, the person has some reason for claiming it to be true or false and if we disagree then we should find those reasons and have our own reasons. Compare those. Hopefully this will lead to Scripture (or a discussion of Church Fathers if that floats your boat).
But whenever you start trying figure out the other guy's motives you just start spinning your tires and the conversation gets derailed (faster than it otherwise would have).
If someone thinks you're prideful and a jerk, forget about it and move on. There will always be someone who won't like you. (Although if everyone thinks your a prideful jerk then maybe you do have a problem).
It's pointless really. Whether someone claimed such and such because they are prideful or whether they claimed such and such because they are uneducated or whether they claimed such and such because their heart is right (or not right) with God.... who cares. Look, if you're know the person personally (you're their friend or in their church family) then these sort of personally issues might be something to consider. But from what I can see, in a forum setting, the "such and such" is either true or false (although I suppose it could be meaningless). Either way, the person has some reason for claiming it to be true or false and if we disagree then we should find those reasons and have our own reasons. Compare those. Hopefully this will lead to Scripture (or a discussion of Church Fathers if that floats your boat).
But whenever you start trying figure out the other guy's motives you just start spinning your tires and the conversation gets derailed (faster than it otherwise would have).
If someone thinks you're prideful and a jerk, forget about it and move on. There will always be someone who won't like you. (Although if everyone thinks your a prideful jerk then maybe you do have a problem).
J
Grrr, I had a post typed up and I accidentally lost it. Hit a link on my bar and bam, navigated away. It was primarily a response to you, Credo, so I will try to get it up because I appreciate the discussion and don't want to cede you victory yet
I might restart it at a later date, if I remember and have time. So spirit-crushing, to lose a post! ><
It was primarily a response to you, Credo, so I will try to get it up because I appreciate the discussion and don't want to cede you victory yet I might restart it at a later date, if I remember and have time. So spirit-crushing, to lose a post! ><
C
Grrr, I had a post typed up and I accidentally lost it. Hit a link on my bar and bam, navigated away. It was primarily a response to you, Credo, so I will try to get it up because I appreciate the discussion and don't want to cede you victory yet
I might restart it at a later date, if I remember and have time. So spirit-crushing, to lose a post! ><
It was primarily a response to you, Credo, so I will try to get it up because I appreciate the discussion and don't want to cede you victory yet I might restart it at a later date, if I remember and have time. So spirit-crushing, to lose a post! ><