My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
I'm wanting to comment on the highlights of the debate between these 2. Jim happens to be 1st to speak up.
Jim wants to show the importance of Sabbath; starting from Creation. Gen 2:2-3 shows the idea of “Sabbath”; yet there is no Sabbath command in Genesis. V. 3; God did bless the “seventh day”; and sanctified it; yet there is no “Sabbath” command given to man.
Jim wants to connect sanctified,V.3; meaning to be made holy; with the 4th commandment; to keep it holy; I presume to mean because of those 2 terms, a Genesis reason to abide to the 4th commandment, in the modern day.
Mark 2:27; “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.” Somebody explained this to me as meaning; “The Sabbath was made for man to rest; not rule.” Yet Jim wants to suggest that this verse means in fact; very scripturally; that Sabbath was made for man, for all time. Mark 2:28; “Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.” Which means Jesus has the power to make Sabbath; and break Sabbath; as is suggested in Luke 6:3-5; John 5:18.
Jim says that some persons insist that Sabbath was given only to Israel; as scriptures clearly explaines in Ex 31:13. And for some reason; Jim says nothing about E3113.
“Unfortunately the scriptures tell us otherwise.” Now he half quotes, thinking this proved his point; “The Sabbath was made for man. “I contend it was made in creation; before man sinned.” Yet the very word; is nowhere to be found in the creation account. And he hasn't yet explained what; “And not man for the Sabbath” means.
Unfortunately, this does not prove his point. A “seventh day” being “sanctified“; is not a Sabbath; much less a command, and not being given to any human person.
“If man had not sinned; we would not be having this debate.” If man had not sinned; we would be living in an entirely different world altogether. And life would have been so much simpler in that version of world.
For all we; in this known world knows; Jim could be right, and in a world where Adam and Eve could've won over the enemy; we could be keeping the Shabot, as Jim says Yahweh created since creation. Except no Sabbath command; till Moses.
Jim talks about the signs in the heavens; to try and pinpoint the proper time of Sabbath. Which isn't really what this debate is all about. The real point is; does Jesse Charles Wycoff, need to quite being a Sundayer; and start keeping Sabbath?
Jim does mention Mt. Sinia of course; yet he doesn't talk about Neh 9:13-14. The bible is a big book; not everybody knows everything.
After Robt Clayton on Youtube explained; because I'm not the scholar that I would like to be; I tried to explain N91314 to my Adventist acquaintance, who could only insist on responding; “The Sabbath was known before the 10C.” Yes Sabbath is in Ex1623 before the 10C; yet my point is, that he refused to catch is; N91314 confirms nobody in Genesis keeps Sabbath.
“We see the commandments all over the place; maybe on the detail.” Jim talks about different occurrences in Genesis; especially with Abraham in Gen 26:5; which is the closest an Adventist can Sabbath reach. And yet again, no actual Sabbath command can be found.
“The Hebrew word for law, is Torah. Before the Torah was given; there was a relationship. It was written on the heart; there was obviously something that happened”; isn't proving Abraham kept Sabbath. And no mention of what N91314 is about.
Jim can talk all he wants about the Noah story; yet nobody in Genesis is given “Sabbath”.
“God already gave these laws in the garden.” Even as scriptures clearly only talks about 1 law
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
given in the garden; and Jim still isn't proving Sabbath was given to man in Genesis.
“That's why Noah already knew about these laws.” Yet specified in the Noah account? And still; no Sabbath in Genesis.
Ex 16:23 is where Sabbath 1st shows up. Sabbath accounts; “possibly” before Mt. Sinai; does not prove Sabbath was in Genesis; much less given to man as an all time command.
Are Gentiles encouraged to keep Sabbath? Isa 56:6; “Also the sons of the stranger”. Conveniently; Jim isn't talking about “Sunday” commands; or what he thinks might really be going on with possible “Sunday” commands. There is no KJB Sabbath church in my area; and a cult Sabbath church isn't happening.
How do we “pollute” the Sabbath; as I56:6 suggests? Maybe a cult Sabbath church?
“But entry into the house of all nations; is they must keep the Shabot” Again; all there is in my area; is a cult Sabbath church.
I can't be held accountable as Jim suggests; if I'm not being properly accommodated. Such a church would also have to be a KJB only church; and they need to confess/ profess to “Sunday” commands.
“We find the Sabbath everywhere in the New Testament.” In connection to Paul doing what, in Acts? “1 of the most powerful arguments the Sabbath is everywhere is this...”
Here's what Jim has yet to mention;
“Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.” Exodus 31:13.
“I suggest that the seventh day Sabbath; does not have to be reiterated in detail, because it's Jerusalem; that all Jewish people and everyone is keeping the Shabot. There's no reason to chastise them for that.”
Jim possibly suggests incorrectly. The final actual Sabbath command; needs to get figured out. A lot of Jews; like the very last 1 I spoke to, to date; believes they have exclusive access to Yahweh. This guy refused to be so much as a Messianic Jew, as he refused to “believe in human sacrifice”; and through a very heated discussion on our phones for a while; after finally some miscommunication; he and I never spoke again.
For some reason; Jim doesn't talk about Ex 31:13; Neh 9:13-14; and now goes straight to the New Testament. Where the word, “Sabbath” is found variously; with no command for the modern day church to keep.
Matt 5:17 is not specifying about the very 10 commandments; but is saying commandments; therefore there is no fear of judgment on accountability day; for going to a KJB church on “Sunday”; Romans 14:5 as even an inurged Adventist admitted before he showed his inurged dislike of Sunday. Yet there will be judgment for those who choose to abide to Jim; who go very conveniently, to a Seventh day Adventist church.
”Revelation 21 tells us exactly when Sabbath is done away with.” I'm looking at this verse; and I see no Sabbath command; or a Sabbath expiration time; I see nothing about Sabbath explained or spoke of here. All I see is about a new heaven and a new earth; compared to the 1st heaven and earth.
Commands were talked about in Matt 5:17. The 10C were not stressed at all; there are more commands; than the 10C. And Jesus never commanded Sabbath.
“I also suggest the Sabbath is not the least of the commandments” That will be Jim's emotionally charged statement. “It is 1 of the top 5; 1 of the greatest.” That could be another emotional statement.
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
The ”greatest“ commandment? “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.“ Matthew 22:37-38.
Jesus broke Sabbath; John 5:18; which Jim isn't talking about; and he again warns about those who will be the “least” in Yahweh's kingdom, Matt 5:17.
“The Sabbath is included in a generic; over umbrella of the commandments itself.” Huh? Romans 3:31.
“We establish the law.”
“The law undoubtedly included the Sabbath” As Jim insists. It was explained to me; that Paul was saying to follow law as best we can, meaning moral law; and yet he was also saying, don't concern about Sabbath. “Let no man judge you”, happens to mean; Don't worry about; even as some Adventists do volunteer; Don't worry about anybody making fun.
“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. “ 1 John 5:2.
Very conveniently; “Sunday” commands weren't talked about at all. Lol There's no time for that in a 20 minute Sabbath presentation. And I have yet to hear his explanation about Gal 2:16.
“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.“ Revelation 14:12.
There are more commandments; than the 10C. Jim declared “Sabbath” is all over the New Testament; yet he doesn't explain whats going on with the very last time “Sabbath” shows up in Col 2:14-17.
Keeping commandments can very easily mean; as Jim isn't explaining; keeping Sunday as Exodus and Leviticus explains.
“If it's not enough in Genesis to Revelation; In the millennium we see the Sabbath.” So far what we DON'T see is a SABBATH in Genesis OR Revelation; no matter how much Jim wants to Sabbath reach.
Jim points out Isa 66:22; and for some people, this can mean as simply as going to the only Sabbath church that is available in their area; Seventh day Adventism. Some states do accommodate with a non Ellen Sabbath church; yet not the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
Could Isa66:22 be saying that Sabbath will be reinstated, as of the millennial reign? In the New Jerusalem? At that time is fine. Yahweh's way; not a false prophets way.
So far; the Sabbath WAS NOT given given to man in the garden; WAS given to the children of Israel; Ex 31:13; Neh 9:13-14 and will be reinstated in eternity Isa66:22.
Nehemiah 9:13-14 confirms nobody in Genesis keeps Sabbath; so nobody can “forget” about it. Writing the 10C on stone; happens to mean nothing more than precisely that.
Jesus did keep Sabbath; he also broke Sabbath; John 5:18, that Jim didn't address for some reason. And Jim doesn't say what Acts 20:7 is about.
The Sabbath is “instituted”; REINSTATED in millennium.
Now; Jim clearly either sees no point in talking about “Sunday” commands; or he doesn't know such commands exist; which could be the case. Ex Adventist outreach does offer testimonies of former Adventist, who are told at 1st that commands for “Sunday” don't exist.
Until real biblical research reveals that such commands; do in fact exist and former Adventists now become Sundayers.
Constantine only said the 1st “Sunday closure law”. This is so popular for Adventists to bring
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
up. They need to blame somebody for the change, instead of recognizing that Yahweh does have “Sunday” commands; and what Constantine did, is always revealed.
Whatever any pope said; they can say if they want. Christians kept Sunday; before any “pope” surfaced.
Jim just said; “Pagan Sun God worship”. I have to assume Jim doesn't know about commands for “Sunday”. “Sunday” got it's name from Sun worship; just like every day of the week; get's it's name from something pagan, including Sabbath on SATURN DAY.
Jim says the Sabbath was given at the beginning of time; and NO IT WASNT! And Gods intention was for all man; and for all time. And unfortunately Gods word says different; as Jim did not cover certain important key verses, that he really should've.
Jim has done a very poor; Sabbath reaching job. This from Jim; should automatically lose him this debate.
There is no Sabbath command in the garden. “Your eyes will be open; and you'll be able to worship him better” is not what the serpent said. And that's not the strategy that happened with the issue of Sabbath vrs “Sunday”.
A Sabbath vrs “Sunday” deception as Jim describes; is not what's going on in the garden.
Chris is doing alright so far.
Jim concedes that early Christians were meeting on the 1st day of the week; which he didn't volunteer at 1st.
Oops; Jim messed up again. Even as Col 2:14-17 says what it does; can we commit adultery? Murder? As Jim suggests? Not if those commands are reiterated.
From Ex Adventist Outreach
1st - Worship God -
(53 times) Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22(x2),23,24(x2); 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23(x2); 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9
2nd - No Idolatry -
(20 times) Acts 15:20,29,17:29; Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15
3rd - No Profanity -
(4 times) Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9
5th - Honor Parents -
(6 times) Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2
6th - Murder -
(7 times) Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
7th - Adultery -
(12 times) Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18;18:20, Romans 13:9, James
2:11, 2 Peter 2:14
8th - Stealing -
(6 times) Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28
9th - Lying -
(4 times) Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20
10th - Don't Covet -
(9 times) Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9,Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14
Jim is now rambling on; just about uselessly. Chris quoted scripture, and Jim can't deal with the scriptural possibility that the 4th commandment, does not apply to Christians.
The constitution is not the issue of this debate. Jesus broke Sabbath; now what?
Again; I only want to comment on highlights; not every word, not every statement.
Jim argues that “Upon the first day of the week” 1 Cor 16:2; could really be meant to mean “Sabbath”. Unfortunately; that reads as it does; as we know that to read; and it coincides with Ex 12:16.
I'm trying to consider that Jim has a point. Unfortunately; there's not enough here for me to starting praying for a KJB Sabbath church. My “Sunday” conscience remains clear.
Chris explains the “8th” day as Sunday. So far Jim has not explained Ex 12:16; Lev 9:1-2; Lev 23:11-21.
Jim again Sabbath reaches in Genesis. He tries to stress that Gen 26:5 is in fact about Sabbath; when the very word is nowhere in Genesis.
For all Jim presumes to reveal that it seems Chris didn't; Jim still insists that Sabbath was given at creation; whereas Neh 9:13-14 says nobody in Genesis keeps Sabbath; that Jim never addressed. Nor did Jim address what more precisely Col 2: 16-17 is about. He didn't explain how to apply the final actual Sabbath command. How do I “let no man judge me”?
Jim to Chris; “Do you believe that the Sabbath is part of the commandments of God?”
As I presume to understand the more precise context of Jim's question; “the commandments of God” is referring to Jim's reading of those scriptures that talk about the commandments of God; and not specifying the 10C of God. Such as 1 John 5:2; Rev 14:12.
Chris; “Yes it's in the Torah.”
Jim; “So when Yahshua said to the 1 who asked him in Matt 19:6; how to inherit eternal life, do you remember what his answer was?”
Jim meant Matt 19:16.
Chris; “Yes; keep the commandments. 2nd table of the law/”
Jim reiterates; “Keep the commandments. Do you still believe the Sabbath is part of the
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
commandments of God?”
Chris; “Oh yeah”
Jim; “So you believe the Sabbath is part of the commandments of God; And he says to enter into eternal life; you should keep the commandments. So; do you admit that Yahshua is telling this man to keep the Sabbath; as part of his relationship to God?”
Chris; “Absolutely” Did Chris hear the question?
Jim asks if Sabbath keeping is part of the commandments in Matt 19:17. Even as some of the 10 are mentioned in these verses; Sabbath keeping isn't specified.
Jim; “I can see I just won the debate; no”
Chris seems amused; with a big smile. Not realizing Jim's question?
Jim; “You did take me through a loop there. I wasn't expecting a “yes”
“For the record; my opponent believes that Jesus just told the disciples to keep the Sabbath.”
Chris; “No; he told that guy.” No Jesus didn't tell that guy. “That's prior to Jesus' fulfillment of the Sabbath.”
“You mentioned earlier; that the Sabbath was not mentioned in the New Testament. Yet his intentions lead to Sabbath.”
Jim again brings up; “The Sabbath was made for man; and not man for the Sabbath.” Again Jim stresses; this means the Sabbath was instituted at creation; and stresses All men. And he never talks about Neh 9:13-14.
Jim; “Do you believe that the Sabbath was part of Gods law?”
“Then what is the definition of sin?” This question suggests that Sabbath breaking is sin; which it is not; John 5:18. And John 3:16 says the standard for eternal life; and Sabbath keeping isn't in there.
“Would you agree that if somebody breaks Sabbath; then they are transgressing the law?”
That's right; Jim never talked about what John 5:18 is about. My Adventist acquaintance keeps insisting; “If Jesus had broken the Sabbath; he would have sinned.” No such statement is in the bible.
Chris; “If you are an Israelite; under the Torah. Absolutely.”
“You saying the Sabbath was only given to Israel?”
Does Jim not know about Ex 31:13?
Does Chris not know about Ex 31:13?
“Absolutely”
“I thought we just established; “The Sabbath was made for man?” And Jim never talked about Ex 31:13. “And Paul said; the entire world is guilty before God. You can't be guilty of breaking something ...”
Jim; “Is it against the law for gentiles to keep the Sabbath?” I just about have to answer; Yes it is against the law; … we cannot keep Law Yahweh's way, James 2:10.
Because of Jesus; Sabbath keeping is not required for salvation. We have “Sunday” commands; as such commands were not discussed; even as Jim stresses THE COMMANDS OF GOD! We have Col 2:14-17 as Jim didn't talk about 16-17; tied in with Gal 2:16.
Jim; “You said; the law was only given to Israel. Is it against the law for gentiles to keep the Sabbath?” Actually that's; Sabbath was given to Israel, as a ceremonial law. We can't just keep Sabbath. Can a keeper possibly “break” Sabbath? Penalty is “death”?
“Who was the New covenant given to?”
“The whole world.”
“I am grafted into Israel” I don't know about being “grafted” into Israel; I know of no such
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
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command.
“If you grafted into Israel; that means your part of the Israel covenant, in which you just said; the Sabbath was given to?” I'm sorry; but Jim has a strong point on that.
By saying he's “grafted” into Israel; strongly suggests Chris is bound to keep Sabbath.
Adventists say they are the adopted children of Israel; because of Ex 31:13 that Jim never gets into; and Chris never points out.
There is no command to be an Adopted child of Israel; “Adopted” is an emotionally charged position; so that Adventists can brainwash themselves, so to think that Sabbath applies to them; for their sake of the 4th commandment; as they deny “Sunday” commands.
1 Cor 5:8; does this have anything to do with the need to keep Sabbath? To suggest what Jim is trying to; can be considered Sabbath reaching. Jim seemed to read; “The feast of passover”; which technically isn't part of 1 Cor 5:8.
Jim said; “If we're going to keep passover”; in which the text technically doesn't read; “By extension; he would also be giving instructions to keep the Sabbath?”
I had to shorten, for this thread. [email protected]
Jim and Chris
I'm wanting to comment on the highlights of the debate between these 2. Jim happens to be 1st to speak up.
Jim wants to show the importance of Sabbath; starting from Creation. Gen 2:2-3 shows the idea of “Sabbath”; yet there is no Sabbath command in Genesis. V. 3; God did bless the “seventh day”; and sanctified it; yet there is no “Sabbath” command given to man.
Jim wants to connect sanctified,V.3; meaning to be made holy; with the 4th commandment; to keep it holy; I presume to mean because of those 2 terms, a Genesis reason to abide to the 4th commandment, in the modern day.
Mark 2:27; “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.” Somebody explained this to me as meaning; “The Sabbath was made for man to rest; not rule.” Yet Jim wants to suggest that this verse means in fact; very scripturally; that Sabbath was made for man, for all time. Mark 2:28; “Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.” Which means Jesus has the power to make Sabbath; and break Sabbath; as is suggested in Luke 6:3-5; John 5:18.
Jim says that some persons insist that Sabbath was given only to Israel; as scriptures clearly explaines in Ex 31:13. And for some reason; Jim says nothing about E3113.
“Unfortunately the scriptures tell us otherwise.” Now he half quotes, thinking this proved his point; “The Sabbath was made for man. “I contend it was made in creation; before man sinned.” Yet the very word; is nowhere to be found in the creation account. And he hasn't yet explained what; “And not man for the Sabbath” means.
Unfortunately, this does not prove his point. A “seventh day” being “sanctified“; is not a Sabbath; much less a command, and not being given to any human person.
“If man had not sinned; we would not be having this debate.” If man had not sinned; we would be living in an entirely different world altogether. And life would have been so much simpler in that version of world.
For all we; in this known world knows; Jim could be right, and in a world where Adam and Eve could've won over the enemy; we could be keeping the Shabot, as Jim says Yahweh created since creation. Except no Sabbath command; till Moses.
Jim talks about the signs in the heavens; to try and pinpoint the proper time of Sabbath. Which isn't really what this debate is all about. The real point is; does Jesse Charles Wycoff, need to quite being a Sundayer; and start keeping Sabbath?
Jim does mention Mt. Sinia of course; yet he doesn't talk about Neh 9:13-14. The bible is a big book; not everybody knows everything.
After Robt Clayton on Youtube explained; because I'm not the scholar that I would like to be; I tried to explain N91314 to my Adventist acquaintance, who could only insist on responding; “The Sabbath was known before the 10C.” Yes Sabbath is in Ex1623 before the 10C; yet my point is, that he refused to catch is; N91314 confirms nobody in Genesis keeps Sabbath.
“We see the commandments all over the place; maybe on the detail.” Jim talks about different occurrences in Genesis; especially with Abraham in Gen 26:5; which is the closest an Adventist can Sabbath reach. And yet again, no actual Sabbath command can be found.
“The Hebrew word for law, is Torah. Before the Torah was given; there was a relationship. It was written on the heart; there was obviously something that happened”; isn't proving Abraham kept Sabbath. And no mention of what N91314 is about.
Jim can talk all he wants about the Noah story; yet nobody in Genesis is given “Sabbath”.
“God already gave these laws in the garden.” Even as scriptures clearly only talks about 1 law
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
given in the garden; and Jim still isn't proving Sabbath was given to man in Genesis.
“That's why Noah already knew about these laws.” Yet specified in the Noah account? And still; no Sabbath in Genesis.
Ex 16:23 is where Sabbath 1st shows up. Sabbath accounts; “possibly” before Mt. Sinai; does not prove Sabbath was in Genesis; much less given to man as an all time command.
Are Gentiles encouraged to keep Sabbath? Isa 56:6; “Also the sons of the stranger”. Conveniently; Jim isn't talking about “Sunday” commands; or what he thinks might really be going on with possible “Sunday” commands. There is no KJB Sabbath church in my area; and a cult Sabbath church isn't happening.
How do we “pollute” the Sabbath; as I56:6 suggests? Maybe a cult Sabbath church?
“But entry into the house of all nations; is they must keep the Shabot” Again; all there is in my area; is a cult Sabbath church.
I can't be held accountable as Jim suggests; if I'm not being properly accommodated. Such a church would also have to be a KJB only church; and they need to confess/ profess to “Sunday” commands.
“We find the Sabbath everywhere in the New Testament.” In connection to Paul doing what, in Acts? “1 of the most powerful arguments the Sabbath is everywhere is this...”
Here's what Jim has yet to mention;
“Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.” Exodus 31:13.
“I suggest that the seventh day Sabbath; does not have to be reiterated in detail, because it's Jerusalem; that all Jewish people and everyone is keeping the Shabot. There's no reason to chastise them for that.”
Jim possibly suggests incorrectly. The final actual Sabbath command; needs to get figured out. A lot of Jews; like the very last 1 I spoke to, to date; believes they have exclusive access to Yahweh. This guy refused to be so much as a Messianic Jew, as he refused to “believe in human sacrifice”; and through a very heated discussion on our phones for a while; after finally some miscommunication; he and I never spoke again.
For some reason; Jim doesn't talk about Ex 31:13; Neh 9:13-14; and now goes straight to the New Testament. Where the word, “Sabbath” is found variously; with no command for the modern day church to keep.
Matt 5:17 is not specifying about the very 10 commandments; but is saying commandments; therefore there is no fear of judgment on accountability day; for going to a KJB church on “Sunday”; Romans 14:5 as even an inurged Adventist admitted before he showed his inurged dislike of Sunday. Yet there will be judgment for those who choose to abide to Jim; who go very conveniently, to a Seventh day Adventist church.
”Revelation 21 tells us exactly when Sabbath is done away with.” I'm looking at this verse; and I see no Sabbath command; or a Sabbath expiration time; I see nothing about Sabbath explained or spoke of here. All I see is about a new heaven and a new earth; compared to the 1st heaven and earth.
Commands were talked about in Matt 5:17. The 10C were not stressed at all; there are more commands; than the 10C. And Jesus never commanded Sabbath.
“I also suggest the Sabbath is not the least of the commandments” That will be Jim's emotionally charged statement. “It is 1 of the top 5; 1 of the greatest.” That could be another emotional statement.
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
The ”greatest“ commandment? “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.“ Matthew 22:37-38.
Jesus broke Sabbath; John 5:18; which Jim isn't talking about; and he again warns about those who will be the “least” in Yahweh's kingdom, Matt 5:17.
“The Sabbath is included in a generic; over umbrella of the commandments itself.” Huh? Romans 3:31.
“We establish the law.”
“The law undoubtedly included the Sabbath” As Jim insists. It was explained to me; that Paul was saying to follow law as best we can, meaning moral law; and yet he was also saying, don't concern about Sabbath. “Let no man judge you”, happens to mean; Don't worry about; even as some Adventists do volunteer; Don't worry about anybody making fun.
“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. “ 1 John 5:2.
Very conveniently; “Sunday” commands weren't talked about at all. Lol There's no time for that in a 20 minute Sabbath presentation. And I have yet to hear his explanation about Gal 2:16.
“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.“ Revelation 14:12.
There are more commandments; than the 10C. Jim declared “Sabbath” is all over the New Testament; yet he doesn't explain whats going on with the very last time “Sabbath” shows up in Col 2:14-17.
Keeping commandments can very easily mean; as Jim isn't explaining; keeping Sunday as Exodus and Leviticus explains.
“If it's not enough in Genesis to Revelation; In the millennium we see the Sabbath.” So far what we DON'T see is a SABBATH in Genesis OR Revelation; no matter how much Jim wants to Sabbath reach.
Jim points out Isa 66:22; and for some people, this can mean as simply as going to the only Sabbath church that is available in their area; Seventh day Adventism. Some states do accommodate with a non Ellen Sabbath church; yet not the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
Could Isa66:22 be saying that Sabbath will be reinstated, as of the millennial reign? In the New Jerusalem? At that time is fine. Yahweh's way; not a false prophets way.
So far; the Sabbath WAS NOT given given to man in the garden; WAS given to the children of Israel; Ex 31:13; Neh 9:13-14 and will be reinstated in eternity Isa66:22.
Nehemiah 9:13-14 confirms nobody in Genesis keeps Sabbath; so nobody can “forget” about it. Writing the 10C on stone; happens to mean nothing more than precisely that.
Jesus did keep Sabbath; he also broke Sabbath; John 5:18, that Jim didn't address for some reason. And Jim doesn't say what Acts 20:7 is about.
The Sabbath is “instituted”; REINSTATED in millennium.
Now; Jim clearly either sees no point in talking about “Sunday” commands; or he doesn't know such commands exist; which could be the case. Ex Adventist outreach does offer testimonies of former Adventist, who are told at 1st that commands for “Sunday” don't exist.
Until real biblical research reveals that such commands; do in fact exist and former Adventists now become Sundayers.
Constantine only said the 1st “Sunday closure law”. This is so popular for Adventists to bring
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
up. They need to blame somebody for the change, instead of recognizing that Yahweh does have “Sunday” commands; and what Constantine did, is always revealed.
Whatever any pope said; they can say if they want. Christians kept Sunday; before any “pope” surfaced.
Jim just said; “Pagan Sun God worship”. I have to assume Jim doesn't know about commands for “Sunday”. “Sunday” got it's name from Sun worship; just like every day of the week; get's it's name from something pagan, including Sabbath on SATURN DAY.
Jim says the Sabbath was given at the beginning of time; and NO IT WASNT! And Gods intention was for all man; and for all time. And unfortunately Gods word says different; as Jim did not cover certain important key verses, that he really should've.
Jim has done a very poor; Sabbath reaching job. This from Jim; should automatically lose him this debate.
There is no Sabbath command in the garden. “Your eyes will be open; and you'll be able to worship him better” is not what the serpent said. And that's not the strategy that happened with the issue of Sabbath vrs “Sunday”.
A Sabbath vrs “Sunday” deception as Jim describes; is not what's going on in the garden.
Chris is doing alright so far.
Jim concedes that early Christians were meeting on the 1st day of the week; which he didn't volunteer at 1st.
Oops; Jim messed up again. Even as Col 2:14-17 says what it does; can we commit adultery? Murder? As Jim suggests? Not if those commands are reiterated.
From Ex Adventist Outreach
1st - Worship God -
(53 times) Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22(x2),23,24(x2); 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23(x2); 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9
2nd - No Idolatry -
(20 times) Acts 15:20,29,17:29; Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15
3rd - No Profanity -
(4 times) Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9
5th - Honor Parents -
(6 times) Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2
6th - Murder -
(7 times) Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
7th - Adultery -
(12 times) Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18;18:20, Romans 13:9, James
2:11, 2 Peter 2:14
8th - Stealing -
(6 times) Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28
9th - Lying -
(4 times) Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20
10th - Don't Covet -
(9 times) Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9,Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14
Jim is now rambling on; just about uselessly. Chris quoted scripture, and Jim can't deal with the scriptural possibility that the 4th commandment, does not apply to Christians.
The constitution is not the issue of this debate. Jesus broke Sabbath; now what?
Again; I only want to comment on highlights; not every word, not every statement.
Jim argues that “Upon the first day of the week” 1 Cor 16:2; could really be meant to mean “Sabbath”. Unfortunately; that reads as it does; as we know that to read; and it coincides with Ex 12:16.
I'm trying to consider that Jim has a point. Unfortunately; there's not enough here for me to starting praying for a KJB Sabbath church. My “Sunday” conscience remains clear.
Chris explains the “8th” day as Sunday. So far Jim has not explained Ex 12:16; Lev 9:1-2; Lev 23:11-21.
Jim again Sabbath reaches in Genesis. He tries to stress that Gen 26:5 is in fact about Sabbath; when the very word is nowhere in Genesis.
For all Jim presumes to reveal that it seems Chris didn't; Jim still insists that Sabbath was given at creation; whereas Neh 9:13-14 says nobody in Genesis keeps Sabbath; that Jim never addressed. Nor did Jim address what more precisely Col 2: 16-17 is about. He didn't explain how to apply the final actual Sabbath command. How do I “let no man judge me”?
Jim to Chris; “Do you believe that the Sabbath is part of the commandments of God?”
As I presume to understand the more precise context of Jim's question; “the commandments of God” is referring to Jim's reading of those scriptures that talk about the commandments of God; and not specifying the 10C of God. Such as 1 John 5:2; Rev 14:12.
Chris; “Yes it's in the Torah.”
Jim; “So when Yahshua said to the 1 who asked him in Matt 19:6; how to inherit eternal life, do you remember what his answer was?”
Jim meant Matt 19:16.
Chris; “Yes; keep the commandments. 2nd table of the law/”
Jim reiterates; “Keep the commandments. Do you still believe the Sabbath is part of the
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
commandments of God?”
Chris; “Oh yeah”
Jim; “So you believe the Sabbath is part of the commandments of God; And he says to enter into eternal life; you should keep the commandments. So; do you admit that Yahshua is telling this man to keep the Sabbath; as part of his relationship to God?”
Chris; “Absolutely” Did Chris hear the question?
Jim asks if Sabbath keeping is part of the commandments in Matt 19:17. Even as some of the 10 are mentioned in these verses; Sabbath keeping isn't specified.
Jim; “I can see I just won the debate; no”
Chris seems amused; with a big smile. Not realizing Jim's question?
Jim; “You did take me through a loop there. I wasn't expecting a “yes”
“For the record; my opponent believes that Jesus just told the disciples to keep the Sabbath.”
Chris; “No; he told that guy.” No Jesus didn't tell that guy. “That's prior to Jesus' fulfillment of the Sabbath.”
“You mentioned earlier; that the Sabbath was not mentioned in the New Testament. Yet his intentions lead to Sabbath.”
Jim again brings up; “The Sabbath was made for man; and not man for the Sabbath.” Again Jim stresses; this means the Sabbath was instituted at creation; and stresses All men. And he never talks about Neh 9:13-14.
Jim; “Do you believe that the Sabbath was part of Gods law?”
“Then what is the definition of sin?” This question suggests that Sabbath breaking is sin; which it is not; John 5:18. And John 3:16 says the standard for eternal life; and Sabbath keeping isn't in there.
“Would you agree that if somebody breaks Sabbath; then they are transgressing the law?”
That's right; Jim never talked about what John 5:18 is about. My Adventist acquaintance keeps insisting; “If Jesus had broken the Sabbath; he would have sinned.” No such statement is in the bible.
Chris; “If you are an Israelite; under the Torah. Absolutely.”
“You saying the Sabbath was only given to Israel?”
Does Jim not know about Ex 31:13?
Does Chris not know about Ex 31:13?
“Absolutely”
“I thought we just established; “The Sabbath was made for man?” And Jim never talked about Ex 31:13. “And Paul said; the entire world is guilty before God. You can't be guilty of breaking something ...”
Jim; “Is it against the law for gentiles to keep the Sabbath?” I just about have to answer; Yes it is against the law; … we cannot keep Law Yahweh's way, James 2:10.
Because of Jesus; Sabbath keeping is not required for salvation. We have “Sunday” commands; as such commands were not discussed; even as Jim stresses THE COMMANDS OF GOD! We have Col 2:14-17 as Jim didn't talk about 16-17; tied in with Gal 2:16.
Jim; “You said; the law was only given to Israel. Is it against the law for gentiles to keep the Sabbath?” Actually that's; Sabbath was given to Israel, as a ceremonial law. We can't just keep Sabbath. Can a keeper possibly “break” Sabbath? Penalty is “death”?
“Who was the New covenant given to?”
“The whole world.”
“I am grafted into Israel” I don't know about being “grafted” into Israel; I know of no such
My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
Jim and Chris
command.
“If you grafted into Israel; that means your part of the Israel covenant, in which you just said; the Sabbath was given to?” I'm sorry; but Jim has a strong point on that.
By saying he's “grafted” into Israel; strongly suggests Chris is bound to keep Sabbath.
Adventists say they are the adopted children of Israel; because of Ex 31:13 that Jim never gets into; and Chris never points out.
There is no command to be an Adopted child of Israel; “Adopted” is an emotionally charged position; so that Adventists can brainwash themselves, so to think that Sabbath applies to them; for their sake of the 4th commandment; as they deny “Sunday” commands.
1 Cor 5:8; does this have anything to do with the need to keep Sabbath? To suggest what Jim is trying to; can be considered Sabbath reaching. Jim seemed to read; “The feast of passover”; which technically isn't part of 1 Cor 5:8.
Jim said; “If we're going to keep passover”; in which the text technically doesn't read; “By extension; he would also be giving instructions to keep the Sabbath?”
I had to shorten, for this thread. [email protected]