Needing help with Matthew 5:19

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C

cfultz3

Guest
#1
Is the following verse a good translation? Are there other verses which could back it up or disprove it? Thank you for your help.

Please, this is not a debate about the Law, simply asking if "shall be given a lesser name...a greater name in the Kingdom from the heavens" is a proper translation.

Mat 5:19 Accordingly, whosoever would have done away with one of the least of those commands and would have taught those humans (those men we are to be a light unto) in this manner, he will be given a lesser name in the Kingdom from the heavens. But, whosoever would have done and taught them, the same shall be given a greater name in the Kingdom from the heavens.
KJV Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#2
Being called least in the Kingdom of Heaven doesn't mean you will be there, it means that in the Kingdom of Heaven, those that are there, will call you least.
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#3
Is the following verse a good translation? Are there other verses which could back it up or disprove it? Thank you for your help.

Please, this is not a debate about the Law, simply asking if "shall be given a lesser name...a greater name in the Kingdom from the heavens" is a proper translation.
Ever heard the song "Will there be any stars in my crown"? We will have a crown when we get to heaven, the quality of which is dependent upon how we live our lives for God. We will have the pleasure of honoring God again with them by laying the crown at his feet. I can't remember where, but I believe the Bible also states the the quality of our mansion is also affected by this. Essentially, the more honor you bring to God the greater the honor you can give him in heaven and the greater the reward.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#4
Is the following verse a good translation? Are there other verses which could back it up or disprove it? Thank you for your help.

Please, this is not a debate about the Law, simply asking if "shall be given a lesser name...a greater name in the Kingdom from the heavens" is a proper translation.

The greek word means to loosen the bonds, Or to set free.


1. to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened: prop. the bandages of the feet, the shoes, Mk. 1:7; Lk. 3:16; Jn. 1:27; Acts [13:25]; 7:33, (so for נָשַׁל to take off, Ex. 3:5; Josh, 5:15); πῶλον (δεδεμένον), Mt. 21:2; Mk. 11:2, [3 L mrg.], 4 sq.; Lk. 19:30 sq. 33; bad angels, Rev. 9:14 sq.; τὸν βοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς φάτνης, Lk. 13:15; trop. of husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony, λέλυσαι ἀπὸ γυναικός (opp. to δέδεσαι γυναικί), spoken of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married, 1 Co. 7:27.
2. to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free: one bound up (swathed in bandages), Jn. 11:44; bound with chains (a prisoner), Acts 22:30 (where Rec. adds ἀπὸ τῶν δεσμῶν); hence i. q. to discharge from prison, let go, Acts 24:26 Rec. (so as far back as Hom.); in Apocalyptic vision of the devil (κεκλεισμένον), Rev. 20:3; ἐκ τῆς φυλακῆς αὐτοῦ, 7; metaph. to free (ἀπὸ δεσμοῦ) from the bondage of disease (one held by Satan) by restoration to health, Lk. 13:16; to release one bound by the chains of sin, ἐκ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν, Rev. 1:5 L T Tr WH (see λούω fin. [cf. W. § 30, 6 a.]).
3. to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together:


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (384). New York: Harper & Brothers.

seeing this, The KJV is incorrect in its translation, It does not mean break.

as for lesser name or greater name in the kingdom.

ἐλάχιστος, -η, -ον, (superl. of the adj. μικρός, but coming fr. ἐλαχύς), [(Hom. h. Merc. 573), Hdt. down], smallest, least,—whether in size: Jas. 3:4; in amount: of the management of affairs, πιστὸς ἐν ἐλαχίστῳ, Lk. 16:10 (opp. to ἐν πολλῷ); 19:17; ἐν ἐλαχίστῳ ἄδικος, Lk. 16:10; in importance: what is of the least moment, 1 Co. 6:2; in authority: of commandments, Mt. 5:19; in the estimation of men: of persons, Mt. 25:40, 45; in rank and excellence: of persons, Mt. 5:19; 1 Co. 15:9; of a town, Mt. 2:6. οὐδὲ [R G οὔτε] ἐλάχιστον, not even a very small thing, Lk. 12:26; ἐμοὶ εἰς ἐλάχιστόν ἐστι (see εἰμί, V. 2 c.), 1 Co. 4:3.*

Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (202). New York: Harper & Brothers.

as for great. sorry so long....


μέγας, μεγάλη, μέγα, [(related to Lat. magnus, magister, Goth. maist (cf. τὸ πλεῖστον), etc.; Vaniček p. 682; Curtius § 462)], acc. μέγαν, μεγάλην, μέγα; plur. μεγάλοι, -αι, -α; comp. μείζων, -ον, (acc. masc. and fem. μείζονα, once contr. μείζω, Jn. 5:36 [R G T WH, but L Tr μείζων (cf. Tdf. Proleg. p. 119)]; neut. plur. μείζονα, once contr. μείζω, Jn. 1:50 (51)) and μειζότερος, 3 Jn. 4 (fr. the compar. μείζων), a poet. compar., on which see the remark quoted under ἐλαχιστότερος, cf. Matthiae § 136; superl. μέγιστος (found only in 2 Pet. 1:4); [fr. Hom. down]; Sept. for גָדול; also for רַב; great;
1. predicated
a. of the external form or sensible appearance of things (or of persons); in particular, of space and its dimensions,—as respects
α. mass and weight: λίθος, Mt. 27:60; Mk. 16:4; Rev. 18:21; ὄρος, Rev. 8:8; ἀστήρ, ibid. 10; δράκων Rev. 12:3, 9; ἀετός, ibid. 14; δένδρον, Lk. 13:19 [T WH om. L Tr br. μέγ.]; κλάδοι, Mk. 4:32; ἰχθύες, Jn. 21:11;
β. compass and extent; large, spacious: σκηνή (μείζων), Heb. 9:11; ἀνάγαιον [R ἀνώγεον, q. v.], Mk. 14:15; ἀποθήκη, Lk. 12:18; κάμινος, Rev. 9:2; πόλις, Rev. 11:8; 16:19; 17:18; 18:2, 16, 18, 19; ποταμός, Rev. 9:14; 16:12; θύρα, 1 Co. 16:9; ληνός, Rev. 14:19; ὀθόνη, Acts 10:11; 11:5; χάσμα, Lk. 16:26 (2 S. 18:17).
γ. measure and height: οἰκοδομαί, Mk. 13:2; θρὁνος, Rev. 20:11; long, μάχαιρα, Rev. 6:4; as respects stature and age, μικροὶ καὶ μεγάλοι, small and great, young and old, Acts 8:10; 26:22; Heb. 8:11; Rev. 11:18; 13:16; 19:5, 18; 20:12, (Gen. 19:11; 2 K. 23:2; 2 Chr. 34:30). [neut. sing. used adverbially: ἐν μεγάλῳ, Acts 26:29 L T Tr WH (for R G ἐν πολλῷ, q. v. in πολύς, d.) in great sc. degree. The apostle plays upon Agrippa’s words ἐν ὀλίγῳ (q. v.) in a little (time) thou wouldst fain etc.… I would to God that both in little and in great i.e. in all respects etc.; cf. the use of ὀλίγον κ. μέγα or σμικρόν κ. μέγα (yet in negative sentences) to express totality; e. g. Plat. Phileb. 21 e.; Apol. 19 c.; 21 b.; 26 b.; but see d. below.]
b. of number and quantity, i. q. numerous, large: ἀγέλη, Mk. 5:11; abundant, πορισμός, 1 Tim. 6:6; μισθαποδοσία, Heb. 10:35.
c. of age: ὁ μείζων, the elder, Ro. 9:12 after Gen. 25:23, (Σκιπίων ὁ μέγας, Polyb. 18, 18 (35), 9; 32, 12, 1).
d. used of intensity and its degrees: δύναμις, Acts 4:33; 8:10; neut. ἐν μεγάλῳ, with great effort, Acts 26:29 L T Tr WH [but see γ. above]; of the affections and emotions of the mind: χαρά, Mt. 2:10; 28:8; Lk. 2:10; 24:52; Acts 15:3; φόβος, Mk. 4:41; Lk. 2:9; 8:37; Acts 5:5, 11; Rev. 11:11; θυμός, Rev. 12:12; λύπη, Ro. 9:2; ἔκστασις, Mk. 5:42 (Gen. 27:33); πίστις, Mt. 15:28; χάρις, Acts 4:33; ἀγάπη, Jn. 15:13. of natural events powerfully affecting the senses, i. q. violent, mighty, strong: ἄνεμος, Jn. 6:18; Rev. 6:13; βροντή, Rev. 14:2; χάλαζα, Rev. 11:19; 16:21; σεισμός, Mt. 8:24; 28:2; Lk. 21:11; Acts 16:26; Rev. 6:12; 11:13; 16:18; λαῖλαψ, Mk. 4:37; πτῶσις, Mt. 7:27. of other external things, such as are perceived by hearing: κραυγή, Acts 23:9; Rev. 14:18 [R G]; μεῖζον κράζειν, to cry out the louder, Mt. 20:31; φωνή, Mt. 24:31 [T om. φ., WH only in mrg.]; 27:46, 50; Lk. 23:23; Jn. 11:43; Acts 8:7; Rev. 1:10; 5:2, 12; 6:10; 7:2, 10; 8:13; 10:3; 11:12, 15; [14:18 L T Tr WH; 18:2 Rec.], and elsewhere; γαλήνη, Mt. 8:26; Mk. 4:39. of objects of sight which excite admiration and wonder: φῶς, Mt. 4:16; σημεῖον, Mt. 24:24; Lk. 21:11; Acts 6:8; 8:13: Rev. 13:13; ἔργα, Rev. 15:3; μείζω, μείζονα τούτων, greater things than these, i.e. more extraordinary, more wonderful, Jn. 1:50 (51); 5:20; 14:12. of things that are felt: καῦμα, Rev. 16:9; πυρετός, Lk. 4:38; of other things that distress: ἀνάγκη, Lk. 21:23; θλίψις, Mt. 24:21; Acts 7:11; Rev. 2:22; 7:14; διωγμός, Acts 8:1; λιμός, Lk. 4:25; Acts 11:28; πληγή, Rev. 16:21.
2. predicated of rank, as belonging to
a. persons, eminent for ability, virtue, authority, power; as God, and sacred personages: θεός, Tit. 2:13 [(on which see Prof. Abbot, Note C. in Journ. Soc. Bibl. Lit. etc. i. p. 19, and cf. ἐπιφάνεια)]; Ἄρτεμις, Acts 19:27 sq. 34 sq.; ἀρχιερεύς, Heb. 4:14; ποιμήν, Heb. 13:20; προφήτης, Lk. 7:16; absol. οἱ μεγάλοι, great men, leaders, rulers, Mt. 20:25; Mk. 10:42; univ. eminent, distinguished: Mt. 5:19; 20:26; Lk. 1:15, 32; Acts 8:9. μείζων is used of those who surpass others—either in nature and power, as God: Jn. 10:29 [here T Tr WH txt. give the neut. (see below)]; 14:28; Heb. 6:13; 1 Jn. 4:4; add, Jn. 4:12; 8:53; or in excellence, worth, authority, etc.: Mt. 11:11; 18:1; 23:11; Mk. 9:34; Lk. 7:28; 9:46; 22:26 sq.; Jn. 13:16; 15:20; 1 Co. 14:5; δυνάμει μείζονες, 2 Pet. 2:11; neut. μεῖζον, something higher, more exalted, more majestic than the temple, to wit the august person of Jesus the Messiah and his preëminent influence, Mt. 12:6 L T Tr WH; [cf. Jn. 10:29 above]; contextually i. q. strict in condemning, of God, 1 Jn. 3:20.
b. things to be esteemed highly for their importance, i. q. Lat. gravis; of great moment, of great weight, important: ἐπαγγέλματα, 2 Pet. 1:4; ἐντολή, Mt. 22:36, 38; μυστήριον, Eph. 5:32; 1 Tim. 3:16; ἁμαρτία, Jn. 19:11; μείζων μαρτυρία, of greater proving power, Jn. 5:36 [see above ad init.]; 1 Jn. 5:9, (μαρτυρίαν μείζω κ. σαφεστέραν, Isocr. Archid. § 32). μέγας i. q. solemn, sacred, of festival days [cf. Is. 1:13 Sept.]: ἡμέρα, Jn. 7:37; 19:31; notable, august, ἡμέρα, of the day of the final judgment, Acts 2:20; Jude 6; Rev. 6:17; 16:14. neut. μέγα, a great matter, thing of great moment: 1 Co. 9:11 (Gen. 45:28; Is. 49:6); οὐ μέγα, 2 Co. 11:15.
c. a thing to be highly esteemed for its excellence, i. q. excellent. 1 Co. 13:13 [cf. W. § 35, 1; B. § 123, 13]; τὰ χαρίσματα τὰ μείζονα (R G κρείττονα), 1 Co. 12:31 L T Tr WH.
3. splendid, prepared on a grand scale, stately: δοχή, Lk. 5:29 (Gen. 21:8); δειπνον, Lk. 14:16; Rev. 19:17 [G L T Tr WH], (Dan. 5:1 [Theodot.]); οἰκία, 2 Tim. 2:20 (Jer. 52:13; [οἶκος], 2 Chr. 2:5, 9).
4. neut. plur. μεγάλα, great things: of God’s preëminent blessings, Lk. 1:49 L T Tr WH (see μεγαλεῖος); of things which overstep the province of a created being, proud (presumptuous) things, full of arrogance, derogatory to the majesty of God: λαλεῖν μεγ. joined with βλασφημίας, Rev. 13:5; Dan. 7:8, 11, 20; like μέγα εἰπεῖν, Hom. Od. 3, 227; 16, 243; 22, 288.


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (394–395). New York: Harper & Brothers.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#5
Being called least in the Kingdom of Heaven doesn't mean you will be there, it means that in the Kingdom of Heaven, those that are there, will call you least.
In a way, you could be correct. The word for "call" (G2564), besides meaning "to be named", can also mean "to call aloud". I would suppose that if one teaches disobedience to God by annulling one of His commandments here and there that that one would not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. And the next verse tells us that if our righteousness (equity) does not exceed above that of the scribes and Pharisees, we would not at all (double negative, not even the possibility) enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

With further thinking, it was the scribes and Pharisees who weigh the Law into lesser and greater decrees. Then the next verse would make sense, seeing that they held certain parts of the Law above other parts.

Your thoughts?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#6
EG,

My friend, what are your thoughts?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#7
Ever heard the song "Will there be any stars in my crown"? We will have a crown when we get to heaven, the quality of which is dependent upon how we live our lives for God. We will have the pleasure of honoring God again with them by laying the crown at his feet. I can't remember where, but I believe the Bible also states the the quality of our mansion is also affected by this. Essentially, the more honor you bring to God the greater the honor you can give him in heaven and the greater the reward.
I believe this with all my heart. May I shine all the more brighter :)

Do you think that the "rules of spiritual conduct" (those things of the Law which love covers) of the Law still remain in tacked for the Christians?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#8
In the next verse, could it be said, "except your righteousness (equity (fairness). Thus, treatment of the Law) exceeds above the scribes and Pharisee", seeing that they were unbalanced in their treatment of the Law, holding certain laws above others?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9
In the next verse, could it be said, "except your righteousness (equity (fairness). Thus, treatment of the Law) exceeds above the scribes and Pharisee", seeing that they were unbalanced in their treatment of the Law, holding certain laws above others?
I do not think this was it.

The pharisees in their day were seen as the most moral people on earth. They would be one of those you could not find a fault with. They set the standard as for as morality goes. Everyone looked at them as the means of what it meant to obey Gods commands.

I think what he is saying is, they are not even good enough. And we can not claim to be as good as they are. So how could we think we are good enough..
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#10
Is the following verse a good translation? Are there other verses which could back it up or disprove it? Thank you for your help.

Please, this is not a debate about the Law, simply asking if "shall be given a lesser name...a greater name in the Kingdom from the heavens" is a proper translation.
Kingdom means Realm or universe and Heaven is spiritual.

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Luke 21:26
People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.



 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#11
EG,

My friend, what are your thoughts?
I will take a quick stab.

Context. He is speaking against the pharisees. Who taught that the way to heaven was to obey the law. And they thought Jesus was teaching against the law (this is important)

in the previous verse, jesus says he did not come to destroy the law and prophets (in their time the complete of scripture, or in our case, the whole of the Old testament) but to fillfill all of them. (he was fighting their argument that he came to destroy the law)

He then makes a statement,

Until ALL is fulfilled, not one jot (the smallest hebrew letter) or tittle (A part of the letter which if missing, or if added, changes the whole letter) will pass from the law.

Again he is defending himself. He is going to get to what he means in a minute.

He then says whoever removes a little, and teaches others..

Again, with context! He is speaking of the pharisees.

He then goes to tell everyone, Trying to get to God through the righteousness the pharisees teach is not good enough.. For the only righteousness which can get us to heaven is the righteousness which comes by faith.

he proves his point by what he says next.

the pharisees said they do not murder. Jesus says yes, But it goes deeper than this.

He says if you have not forgiven your brother. do not even bother to sacrifice, it will be useless

Do not commit adultry, Yes they did not do this, but if we even look at a woman (what mad has not done this?)

He goes on and on teaching that the type of law the pharisees teach is washed down. Yes they may keep it, but they do not even understand it. If they did, they would know they were not good enough.

To take away from the commands (the whole OT) is to take away what the commands (OT) teach about Christ. I think he is telling them, anyone who teaches anything other than salvation by faith, takes away from these commands.

This is just a few thoughts, I may change them after further study




 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#12
In a way, you could be correct. The word for "call" (G2564), besides meaning "to be named", can also mean "to call aloud". I would suppose that if one teaches disobedience to God by annulling one of His commandments here and there that that one would not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. And the next verse tells us that if our righteousness (equity) does not exceed above that of the scribes and Pharisees, we would not at all (double negative, not even the possibility) enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

With further thinking, it was the scribes and Pharisees who weigh the Law into lesser and greater decrees. Then the next verse would make sense, seeing that they held certain parts of the Law above other parts.

Your thoughts?
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Here I think one needs to go to Mat 23...

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Notice the attitude?

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

and you can read the rest of this chapter. Now look at Mark 7

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

One can fall in the ditch on either side.