New Heaven

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,724
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#1
In Isaiah ch. 65 (and in other places in the scripture) the Lord declares He will make a new heaven and a new earth.

i can understand reasons why He would make a new earth - not the least of which that this earth is destined for judgement by fire - but why a new heaven?
our citizenship is in heaven - is this the new heaven, the heaven that is now, or both?
i asked this in my regular bible study group, but no one really had an answer.

does anyone have a clear understanding of this, or even an educated opinion?

thanks.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#2
Psalm 104:5, "You placed the earth on its foundations, and it will not be removed forever and ever."

There are many verses about "new", new moon, new heaven, new earth, in many concordances the word supposedly means "new, as in brand new" but a scholoar from Hebrew university, that has spoke Hebrew his whole life and is one of the dead sea scroll translators and on of the main people behind restoring ANCINET Hebrew says its, renewed, as in its the same moon every month, not a new moon. I believe its the same here, the heavens and the earth will be renewed, restored, cleansed. Translations are not perfect, they are a opinion of what an original means, so we need to dig deeper then 1 or 2 layers here IMO.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#3
You don't want to think of a literal new earth and heaven.

What is new will be the time ; meaning the start of a new age. In Hebrews, it's written, God created all the worlds ( Not litteraly worllds here ; but it means ; times, or ages ).

Hebrews 11

King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



αἰών

aiōn

ahee-ohn'

From the same as G104 ; properly an age ; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world ;


Paul and Peter taught about how there was a foundation , which, Paul said he was chosen from. Also Peter, noting Puals writings, that there were Three ages ( 2 Peter 3 ). I have a more detailed study. ( The rudiments, in the Greek, which is only the evil elements of the world will be dissolved, but not the earth ). If anything, the earth is rejuvenated, But its a start of a new age when the time for the eternity arrives .


You don't need to be a Hebrew scholar to know Hebrew even ancient Hebrew, at least the meanings of these words. Use a simple Strong's Concordance .
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,724
13,150
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#4
redemption, i can understand - His purpose and work in us all!

but in Matthew, Mark and Luke, it is recorded Christ said:
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will never pass away

how should i interpret this, and the Psalm? even in the same song, Psalm 104:32 calls the Lord
"He who looks at the earth, and it trembles"
which, hey, sounds like it's moving. i always thought, with regards to v.5, that the earth "shall not be moved" in the sense that the Lord has made the universe, the earth itself included, according to His law and His purpose, so that in an anthropomorphised sense, the earth is 'sure' of its course, and also 'mighty' in the sense of unshakable - the psalmist then contrasts the strength & majesty of these created things with the latter verses - how much more mighty and unmovable is God, whose mere glance makes the 'unmovable' earth shudder??!!

even if it is only a "renewal" or "regeneration" of the heavens and the earth, the question of why the heavens need regenerating is open - did Lucifer's sin bring a curse on the heavens?

thanks. i haven't studied Hebrew, and i love that there are people here who have, that can help me understand =]
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#5
redemption, i can understand - His purpose and work in us all!

but in Matthew, Mark and Luke, it is recorded Christ said:
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will never pass away

how should i interpret this, and the Psalm? even in the same song, Psalm 104:32 calls the Lord
"He who looks at the earth, and it trembles"
which, hey, sounds like it's moving. i always thought, with regards to v.5, that the earth "shall not be moved" in the sense that the Lord has made the universe, the earth itself included, according to His law and His purpose, so that in an anthropomorphised sense, the earth is 'sure' of its course, and also 'mighty' in the sense of unshakable - the psalmist then contrasts the strength & majesty of these created things with the latter verses - how much more mighty and unmovable is God, whose mere glance makes the 'unmovable' earth shudder??!!

even if it is only a "renewal" or "regeneration" of the heavens and the earth, the question of why the heavens need regenerating is open - did Lucifer's sin bring a curse on the heavens?

thanks. i haven't studied Hebrew, and i love that there are people here who have, that can help me understand =]
The people have gone away from Yahweh;s instruction so the entire earth has been devoured by the curse (polution, diseases, GMO, etc) that comes from disobedience:

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."
 
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nathan3

Guest
#6
did Lucifer's sin bring a curse on the heavens?

thanks. i haven't studied Hebrew, and i love that there are people here who have, that can help me understand
Well, its a bit of a study; that covers a lot of scriptures ( that im not qualified to teach fully and properly .). The earth is not in a good state as it was at the Foundation. It was created perfect. After Satans rebellion and overthrow - ( Ezekiel 28 ; Rev 12:3-4 ; Jeremiah 4: 21- ; Gen 1:2 -Hebrew etc. ) Others I cant remember: the people, and the cities, and everyone was destroyed by God. He did not destroy the peoples souls, but called them back to heaven with Him. Then He caused the earth to be habitable again, to bring in this age that we are in now (the 2nd... 2 peter 3 ). After this time is over when Christ returns, then starts the final, ( 3rd ), There the earth and heaven is restored back to its perfect condition. No more seas, as written in rev 21 i think etc. Its hard for me to talk about this in the forum.
 
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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#7
Also the PS 104:5, the word "move(ed) or removed" has been translated many different ways throught out Scripture, and looking at Scripture as a whole and as you said the earth trembles, and the earth is even "shaken to and fro like a hut" I think in context of Psalm 104:5, "You placed the earth on its foundations, and it will not be removed forever and ever." My view was always the foundations may be shaken but the earth will never be removed from those foundations. If we look in different concordances, dictionaries, lexicons, etc we may get slightly different meanings of the root words, so, much study and an overview of Scripture is important IMO, as the language this was written in is NOT 100% understandable now, we have to look at Scripture as a whole as not to mis interpret a Scripture here or there. I hope that helps!
 
Nov 19, 2012
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#8
In Isaiah ch. 65 (and in other places in the scripture) the Lord declares He will make a new heaven and a new earth.

i can understand reasons why He would make a new earth - not the least of which that this earth is destined for judgement by fire - but why a new heaven?
our citizenship is in heaven - is this the new heaven, the heaven that is now, or both?
i asked this in my regular bible study group, but no one really had an answer.

does anyone have a clear understanding of this, or even an educated opinion?

thanks.

A new heavens and new earth (like it does with the present heavens and earth in Gen 1) should refer to the replacement of the totality of the created physical cosmos.

The replacement of the present physical world with a new spiritual world is what will occur when time ends.

The Righteous will occupy the New Jerusalem which will replace the old heavens and earth as we now know them...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,724
13,150
113
#9
there's a lot between
God created the heavens and the earth
&
and the earth was formless and void
that's not really accounted for in the '6,000yr' figure, isn't there?
 
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nathan3

Guest
#10
there's a lot between
God created the heavens and the earth
&
and the earth was formless and void
that's not really accounted for in the '6,000yr' figure, isn't there?
exactly yes :) .


From Gen 1:1 it says, in the beginning God Created the heavens and the earth. ( that is a complete statement.Also it does not tell you when the beginning was . ) The only way you can figure that is by trying to date the creation its self .


When you hit verse 2, if you look up ever word in the Hebrew. It shows the earth was not created void and without form, it became void and without form, sometime after verse 1. Then, what you are really reading in the 6 days in creating, is the start of this 2nd, or age of Salvation/testing with man & women in the flesh bodies. God is the light, and the darkness comprehended it not .

We can figure about how long man in flesh has walked the earth, that is about from the time of Genesis 1:3 and on. Thats over 6,000 and when you add on some other dates, maybe 20,000 years or so i think. But that has nothing to do with the age of the earth and all the history of the past.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#11
use this for good word studies into the greek or hebrew , its the best online version of the strongs i came across so far.
For gen 1 verse 2
Genesis 1 link <<
 
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Nov 19, 2012
5,484
27
0
#12
there's a lot between
God created the heavens and the earth
&
and the earth was formless and void
that's not really accounted for in the '6,000yr' figure, isn't there?
Correct....

The initial 'bara' creation event until the earth was being staged for life was billions of years.

God stopped creating after humanity...and He will create again with the New Jerusalem.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#13
I'll try to show how this should have really been translated ;

( what it actually says in the mss it was taken from. If they had a better understanding overall ,of God's Word, then I'm sure they would not have translated verse 2 like they did... This verse if one of the few places in the Bible i have a little grasp on understanding from study and prayer and good Christians helping me out. )

Genesis 1
(KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

was

היה

hâyâh

haw-yaw'

A primitive root (compare H1933 ); to {exist} that {is} be or {become} come to pass
(always {emphatic} and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - {beacon} X {altogether} be ({-come} {accomplished} {committed} {like}) {break} {cause} come (to {pass}) {continue} {do} {faint} {fall} + {follow} {happen} X {have} {last} {pertain} quit (one-) {self} {require} X use.


without form


תּהוּ

tôhû

to'-hoo

From an unused root meaning to lie waste ; a desolation (of {surface}) that {is} desert ; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain:
- {confusion} empty {place} without {form} {nothing} (thing of) {nought} {vain} {vanity} {waste} wilderness.

God did Not created the world void and without form ( tôhû ) or wasted-( Isaiah 45:17-19 ).



]color=red] void

בּהוּ

bôhû

bo'-hoo

From an unused root (meaning to be empty ); a {vacuity} that {is} (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin[/color] : - {emptiness} void.



Darkness

חשׁך

chôshek

kho-shek'

From H2821 ; the dark ; hence (literally) darkness ; figuratively {misery} destruction 6
{death} ignorance 6
{sorrow} wickedness:
- dark ({-ness}) {night} obscurity.


II Peter 3:

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: ( 1st or The foundation Paul spoke of )


7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now ( 2nd that we are in now ), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


So here you have Peter speaking of a flood in verses 1-2. But consider that the waters that God moved on in the earth of old, where in Genesis 1:2 and even in verse 9 making the dry land appear.


If you read Jeremiah 4. God is speaking the Israel saying basically, if you don't straighten up, i might just wipe everything out. He then gos into some history I believe that we read in Gen1:2. Kinda like saying, not to test Him, because He did it once before.


Jeremiah 4:

19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish ( means stupid ) children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

( Now below is the same Language as in Genesis 1:2 )

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo,
there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.


Now, in the flood of Noah, there were at least Eight people, if the seedling of Adam, that made it aboard the Ark.

But here, God is describing a destruction, where there were cities, and there was not left one man. This is the same language as Genesis 1:2. without form, and void. Which as I noted in Isaiah 45: 17-19, God did not create it void and without form.


This to me, is clearly describing a more massive flood then Noah, ( and im sure many other forms of destruction were used ).

In II Peter 3:

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

( this to me is clear enough, referring to -

Gen 1: 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Water can eve be symbolic of people, but I believe at this point this is a flood and the people have been destroyed .. Not the flood of Noah where at least Eight of the descendants of Adam were saved. But Jeremiah says how there was left not one man. ( Again the reason for this destruction ( Ezekiel 28 ; Rev 12:3-4 ).


As you continue reading, you see God is still moving on waters causing the water to reseed , and forming the costs, etc. Gen 1:9 .
And then in the Six says in creating, you have God restoring the earth, to make way for this age now ( the 2nd in which the other flood, Noahs happened - same we are still in )

II PETER 3: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


After that, Christ returns and we eventually go into the 3rd and final the eternity .
 
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nathan3

Guest
#14
Paul hinted at, that he was taken to the same place ( or time ) John was taken in Revelation 1:10 . Paul said:

2 Corinthians 12

King James Version (KJV)

12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

( I believe from Hebrews, where its written God created all the worlds ( ages ); that Paul here is talking about the eternity, when he says third heaven, or just translated as third heaven. Its the third age in time. Same heaven, same earth, but different times. )

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,710
3,651
113
#15
I'll throw this verse in the mix.

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves (purified) with better sacrifices than these.

(purified) in parenthesis is implied.
 
Apr 6, 2012
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#16
In the Bible, “earth” does not always refer to our globe. For instance, Psalm 96:1 says literally: “Sing to Jehovah, all the earth.” We know that our planet-the terra firma and the vast oceans-cannot sing. People sing. Yes, Psalm 96:1 is referring to the people on the earth. If “heavens” can symbolize the superior ruling power or government so, to “earth.” represents a new society of people.

The prophecy presenting the promise of “new heavens and a new earth,” given through Isaiah, was one dealing initially with the restoration of Israel from Babylonian exile. Upon the Israelites’ return to their homeland, they entered into a new system of things. Cyrus the Great was used prominently by God in bringing about that restoration. Back in Jerusalem, Zerubbabel (a descendant of David) served as governor, and Joshua as high priest. In harmony with Jehovah’s purpose, this new governmental arrangement, or “new heavens,” directed and supervised the subject people.-2 Chronicles 36:23; Haggai 1:1, 14.

Peter, however, shows that a future fulfillment was to be anticipated, on the basis of God’s promise. (2 Peter 3:13) Since God’s promise in this case relates to the presence of Christ Jesus, as shown at verse 4, the “new heavens and a new earth” must relate to God’s Messianic Kingdom and its rule over obedient subjects. By his resurrection and ascension to God’s right hand, Christ Jesus became “higher than the heavens” (Hebrews 7:26) in that he was thereby placed “far above every government and authority and power and lordship…not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.” (Ephesians 1:19-21; Matthew 28:18) This Kingdom government, under Christ and his 144,000 corulers, is the new heavens.-Revelation 14:1.

These Christian followers of Jesus, as “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Hebrews 3:1), are assigned by God as “heirs” in union with Christ, through whom God purposed “to gather all things together again.” “The things in the heavens,” that is, those called to heavenly life, are the first to be thus gathered into unity with God through Christ. (Ephesians 1:8-11) Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” (1 Peter 1:3, 4; Colossians 1:5; compare John 14:2, 3) They are “enrolled” and have their “citizenship” in the heavens. (Hebrews 12:23; Philippians 3:20) They form the “New Jerusalem” seen in John’s vision as “coming down out of heaven from God.” (Revelation 21:2, 9, 10) Since this vision is initially stated to be of “a new heaven and a new earth” (Revelation 21:1), it follows that both are represented in what is thereafter described. Hence the “new heaven” must correspond to Christ together with his “bride,” the “New Jerusalem,” and the “new earth” is seen in the “peoples of mankind” who are their subjects and who receive the blessings of their rule, as depicted in verses 3 and 4.

John’s vision refers to the passing away of “the former heaven and the former earth.” (Revelation 21:1; compare Isaiah 57:20; Revelation 20:11.) In the Christian Greek Scriptures, earthly governments and their peoples are shown to be subject to Satanic rule. (Matthew 4:8, 9; John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4; Revelation 12:9; 16:13, 14) The apostle Paul referred to “the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,” with their governments, authorities, and world rulers. (Ephesians 6:12) So the passing away of “the former heaven” indicates the end of political governments along with Satan and his demons. This identification of “the former heaven” harmonizes with the fact that shortly before the statement concerning the “former heaven having passed away,” John had seen a vision of the complete defeat of Satan’s forces and the casting of Satan into “the abyss.”-Revelation 19:19-20:3
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As for the new earth, following the pattern of the ancient fulfillment, the new earth will be made up of people-from all nationalities, languages, and races-who gladly submit to the rulership of the new heavenly government. After the passing of the present wicked system of things, this group will form the nucleus of a new earth that will eventually be a globe-encircling society of God-fearing humans who inherit the earthly realm of God’s Kingdom.-Matthew 25:34.