No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

[MattTooFor]

Actually, the great tribulation begins from when the abomination is set up

I had just made exactly that point. It's a little odd that you state it as though you're countering me. (?)

The great tribulation ends in Matt.24:29-31 with Christ returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

Actually, at the end of the Great Tribulation, the Lord appears "in the sky" (Matthew 24:30). He doesn't yet come down to earth.

So, if you're trying to say the great tribulation ends after 1260 days, that can't be because "no one knows the day or the hour" (Matthew 24:36). If the great tribulation were to end after 1260 days, we would know the very day of the occurrence of "the great trumpet" and the gathering of the elect.

No, the great tribulation ends as Jesus says...at the time of the cosmic disturbances. And as I said, those same cosmic disturbances signal the beginning of "the day of the Lord".

In that regard. you seemed to brush past this Joel passage which I cited: Joel 2:31 --

"The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

In addition to the above, we have a reference to that time of great tribulation for the great tribulation saints referred to in Dan.7:25 as a time, times and half a time, (3 1/2 years) with that same 3 1/2 years mentioned in Rev.13:6-8, when it is said that the beast is given authority to rule for 42 months, where during that time he wages war against the saints and conquers them.

Wait - you just IMPOSED your PreTrib doctrine. Can't do that! You can't declare that the time of the beast's authority (42 months) is the same length as the Great Tribulation which Peter, James and John were told about...because that would then mean they would know the very "day" of Jesus' appearance in the sky, the sound of the trumpet and the gathering of the elect.

Again, Jesus clearly indicates that the tribulation ends at the time of the cosmic disturbances, some time well before the end of the 1260 days...at the time of these cosmic disturbances which, in turn, signal the BEGINNING of the day of the Lord.

Certainly, the beast's span time is 42 months, just as the Bible says. But NOT the length of the Great Tribulation. No one can know THAT time span.

The day of the Lord, also referred to as "the hour of trial

You have a habit of making these leaps. You haven't shown from the scriptures that the day of the Lord and the "hour of trial" are the same thing!

The day of the Lord begins with the gathering of the church and continues throughout the entire seven years.

Wow - there's another of those leaps. And this one is contradicting Joel which states the day of the Lord begins with the appearance of these cosmic disturbances...NOT at the outset of the 70th Week.

And the Lord, in the Olivet Discourse, is actually quoting from Joel...to remove all doubt that the VERY SAME cosmic disturbances which END the Great Tribulation are the VERY SAME disturbances which COMMENCE the day of the Lord.

And of course, in reading through these "Day of the Lord" passages in Joel and other echoing OT passages...it becomes abundantly clear this is the time of God's wrath being visited upon the wicked.

the above is just referring to what happens at the end of that 3 1/2 years, i.e. immediately after that 3 1/2 years of great tribulation, with Christ returning in conjunction with the events of the sun, moon and the stars.

Again, the Great Tribulation CANNOT last exactly 3 1/2 years...otherwise, people would know the very day of Jesus' appearance in the sky" and the gathering of the elect.

The 6th seal described in Rev. 6 is another very clear depiction of this sequence of events: First there is the time of tribulation and martyrdom which is the 5th seal. Then comes the 6th seal in Rev.6:12-13 --

"...the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth...".

And then a few verses further down (vs.16-17) - "...and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?".

This is a spot-on match to Jesus' words and His quote of Joel. The Rev.6:15-17 passage is also very closely echoed by Isaiah 2:19-21.

 

[PlainWord]

Matthew 28: [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

If Christ was to return 7 years before the end of the age, why would He imply that we are to evangelize until the end and that He would be with us until the end?

 

[tanakh]

In Paul's day, the gospel had gone out to the whole world(Colossians 1:5-6), been preached to every creature under heaven(Colossians 1:23) and had gone out to all nations(Romans 16:24-25).

Obviously, today, there are people groups who have not received the gospel, but their ancestors had received it at one time in history in Paul's day. They either rejected or believed it and did a poor job passing it on to the next generation. We're talking almost 2,000 years. Are you denying what Paul said?

In Pauls day the whole world was considered to be be the Roman Empire, Parthia, bits of India and bits of Africa. Half the world was unknown and continued to so until the time of Colombus and Cook

 

[PlainWord]

Those who believe in a “secret rapture” say that the Greek word “parousia” refers to the secret “coming” of Jesus in His presence and that the Greek word “apokalupsis” refers to the visible glorious “coming” of Jesus in power seven years later. They also teach in middle of this seven year period, (3.5 years) the antichrist will reign. But “parousia” and “apokalupsis” are BOTH used to describe the second coming as we will soon show by its parallel in the “days of Noah.”

Paul uses the word “parousia” in the well known so called “rapture chapter” of 1 Thessalonians 4 when speaking of the coming of Christ and our gathering together unto Him. Paul then shows that this “parousia” will destroy the man of sin; the antichrist. Paul says, “whom the Lord shall...destroy with the brightness of his coming [parousia].” 2 Thessalonians 2:8. These scriptures unmistakably describe the coming [parousia] of Christ as taking place after the reign of the man of sin, not as a secret rapture before the antichrist’s reign begins.

The other Greek word “apokalupsis” [revelation] is used in a way that indicates it is not a separate second coming from the time the believers are gathered up. Peter said in 1 Peter 1:13 to “… be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation [apokalupsis] of Jesus Christ;” Why would Christians be exhorted to continue hoping to the end of the world for the grace brought through the revelation of Jesus Christ if their real hope was a secret rapture seven years before the revelation?

These following verses showing Matthew and Luke’s account of the same event prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the words “parousia” and “apokalupsis” do refer to the same event. In Matthew 24:37 we read, “But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be.” And the same account in Luke 17:26, 30; “As it was in the days of Noah...Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed [apokalupsis].”

This shows that the coming [parousia] of Christ and the revelation [apokalupsis] of Christ are the same event. There is absolutely no basis for placing seven years in between. This whole counterfeit doctrine is built upon a constant repetition of words and ideas that have been repeated so often that millions have assumed that they must be biblically sound.

 

[John146]

In Pauls day the whole world was considered to be be the Roman Empire, Parthia, bits of India and bits of Africa. Half the world was unknown and continued to so until the time of Colombus and Cook

Scripture to support that when Paul speaks of the world, he is speaking only about those parts you mentioned. I haven't read that in the Bible yet. Please post Scripture please...

 

[Bladerunner]

Without his wife???






( He lost his children, but not his wife. )

guess you did not read the book at the very least. ............................

The Idea is that Satan does not have the power of God.

 

[GaryA]

guess you did not read the book at the very least. ............................

First of all --- "chill out" --- it was a friendly joke about Job having children without his wife.

Then --- would you care to show me a verse in Job that indicates that Satan killed his wife?

 

[TMS]

......

This shows that the coming [parousia] of Christ and the revelation [apokalupsis] of Christ are the same event. There is absolutely no basis for placing seven years in between. This whole counterfeit doctrine is built upon a constant repetition of words and ideas that have been repeated so often that millions have assumed that they must be biblically sound.

I agree, there is absolutely no basis for placing seven years in between,

 

[PlainWord]

I agree, there is absolutely no basis for placing seven years in between,

Thanks. We all know why they do it, so that they can create a 7 year tribulation period for which the church would necessarily need to be "raptured." The truly sad thing is that they invent a future bogey man, "Antichrist" in Dan 9:24-27 and attribute to him acts Jesus performed.

Check this out. I just saw this yesterday. This is SO COOL:

Matthew 18:22

Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

In the above, Jesus clearly teaches we are to forgive our brother who has sinned 490 times. Obviously if our brother sins a 491st time we are to forgive him again, so 7 x 70 isn't a literal limit. Instead Jesus is relating this saying to Daniel and here's how:

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Seventy weeks (70 x 7) are determined For your people and for your holy city;

To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

I always saw the above list as things Israel and Jerusalem were to accomplish in 490 years but yesterday I saw that it is more than that. God is giving Israel (and Jerusalem) 490 years to do those things - OR ELSE!! Man, this could get long winded.

Israel and Judea were taken captive by Babylon as punishment for idol worship and for not keeping the Sabbath holy. They were to be kept captive 70 years specifically because of violating the Sabbath concerning allowing the Land to rest once every 7 years:

2 Chronicles 36:21

to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

So once they were allowed to return to their Land, the Pharisees and Scribes, etc got really legalistic about the Sabbath and created some 500 rules of things you cannot do on the Sabbath. You couldn't even leave an egg on a rock in case it were to cook in the heat of the sun. As we know, Jesus butted heads with them over their legalism dealing with the Sabbath and this is one of the reasons they sought to undermine and kill Him. Back to Daniel:

To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity

God punished Israel 70 years and is now giving them 7 x 70 years to stop their sins and to reconcile or repent for them. If they don't, they will face His wrath - "They" being the religious leaders of the day, and sadly, the people and city as well. Therefore God has given them an example of long-suffering, forgiveness and grace and Jesus reminded them of this and they are to also extend this to their wayward brother who has wronged them. But, if they do not stop sinning and repenting God will have no choice but to punish them again. The way God punishes is to remove them from their covenant land and send them captive into their enemies' hands.

Continued:

 

[PlainWord]

...Continuing (Long post but worth the read)

I will show that the "Great Tribulation" that all the pre-tribbers keep yakking about pertained to the punishment of Israel at the hands of the Romans. I have always focused on Matthew's account but Luke actually tells the story much better. Let's set the table.

Jesus has just sent for the colt and He is getting ready for His triumphal entry into Jerusalem as KING but He has a heavy heart but NOT because He is about to suffer and die but because Jerusalem has not recognized Him AND because He knows the fate that awaits them and their city. Remember, 70 weeks were determined for both the people and the city. Luke 19:

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, [SUP]42 [/SUP]saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. [SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

The above was accomplished by the Roman solders. According to Josephus, every single last stone was removed not only from the temple but also every house and Jerusalem was absolutely left desolate, like a wilderness.

Josephus stated:

"And truly, the very view itself was a melancholy thing; for those places which were adorned with trees and pleasant gardens, were now become desolate country every way, and its trees were all cut down. Nor could any foreigner that had formerly seen Judaea and the most beautiful suburbs of the city, and now saw it as a desert, but lament and mourn sadly at so great a change. For the war had laid all signs of beauty quite waste. Nor had anyone who had known the place before, had come on a sudden to it now, would he have known it again. But though he [a foreigner] were at the city itself, yet would he have inquired for it" (War VI.1,1).

The heat from the fires which burned the temple and city was so hot that it melted all the gold and precious metals which ran down into the foundation stones. The Romans spared some Jews and used them as slaves to pry up every last rock even down to the bedrock to recover this gold. When they were done the Temple and the city were completely desolate with nothing left but 3 towers and the Roman fortress Antonia.

Moving ahead to Luke 21, Jesus warns His disciples about this coming event.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

The Jewish-Roman War of 67-70 AD involved several Roman legions which surrounded and laid siege to the city. The people inside were starving. Many tried to flee but were easily captured and killed. When Nero died there was a brief respite. "Those days were shortened for the sake of the Elect." The Christians in Jerusalem were held up on Mount Zion (south of the temple) and saw their opportunity to escape. They fled east towards the mountains then north up to Pella. Not one Jewish Christian was lost.

Then in AD 70 Titus resumed the attack in full force. Jesus tells us what happens next:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

So yes, the above is God's Wrath upon His people. His Elect (Christians) were spared. 1.1 million Jews were said to have been slaughtered. After the city was completely leveled with not one stone atop another, the slaves were taken off to Rome to follow Titus and his triumphant return. Titus Arch was erected next to the Colosseum depicting his victory and as a reminder and stands to this day. From there, the Jewish nation was scattered throughout all the world as we know.

Back to Daniel. Pay close attention to the semicolon in this line. Daniel is telling us that Messiah (which means "the Annointed One," will be cut off half way into the 70th week. We then have the semicolon because the rest of this verse tells us about Titus and what happens in the future to the temple and city because of their sins and because they did not end their sins nor did they reconcile themselves to God. Titus was the "Prince to come," not some future AntiChrist

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

The "flood" was the Roman solders who over ran Jerusalem. The "desolation" was the city and temple. "NOT ONE STONE SHALL BE LEFT ON TOP ANOTHER" you can't get more desolate than that. According to Eleazar, the final Jewish commander at Masada as he saw Jerusalem 3 years after its destruction:

"And where is now that great city, the metropolis of the Jewish nation, which was fortified by so many walls round about, which had so many fortresses and large towers to defend it, which could hardly contain the instruments prepared for the war, and which had so many ten thousands of men to fight for it? Where is this city that was believed to have God himself inhabiting therein? it is now demolished to the very foundations, and hath nothing left but THAT MONUMENT of it preserved, I mean THE CAMP OF THOSE that hath destroyed it, WHICH STILL DWELLS UPON ITS RUINS; some unfortunate old men also lie ashes upon the of the Temple, and a few women are there preserved alive by the enemy, for our bitter shame and reproach."

Back to Daniel. Daniel mentions Messiah being cut-off, he then introduces information that would follow 36-40 years later then returns back to discussing Messiah:

"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering..."

Jesus did the above (NOT SOME ANTICHRIST)!! Jesus was confirming the new covenant with many (the world) for the first 3.5 years of the 70th week. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week, his disciples continued the message. This ended with the Stoning of Stephen, the first post Cross martyr. At the Cross Jesus put an end to sacrifice by becoming the sacrifice for all of us.

"...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Because of their many sins (including killing Christ), Titus shall make the temple and city desolate. The consuming fire which was determined as their punishment shall be poured out upon these desolate people. They no longer have a home.

We see the above passage being related again by John in Rev 12:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Satan, using Rome, persecuted God's people and he intended to wipe them out completely.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Rome's ensign or insignia was an great eagle. Rome had wiped Israel off the map. But the Christian remnant, the ELECT, they escaped into the wilderness of the Jordan River Valley, they crossed the river and headed north towards Galilee then the came to Pella and settled there.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Since then Satan has been attacking the Church, those who have the testimony of Jesus.

So you see, there is no 7 year great tribulation taught anywhere in the Bible. Because some have misinterpreted Dan 9:24-27 and invented a 2,000 year gap which was not taught, then took the works of Christ and the vengeance He taught in Luke 21 and His covenant and assigned it to some future AntiChrist, because they did this, they have invented an un-Scriptual mess!!

 

[PlainWord]

What if the tribulation mentioned here:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...

Referred back to the tribulation here:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Instead of the great tribulation here????:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Notice Jesus says, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and not "the great tribulation of those days? If Gary and Zone (and plenty others) are correct, then there isn't going to be another Great Tribulation of Israel. Instead Christ returns after the persecution of the church is over. Just throwing that out there.

The attack of Gog from Magog as seen in Rev 20 and Eze 38-39 is not another Great Tribulation and certainly cannot be as bad as the one from 70 AD because Jesus taught nothing will ever be that bad again. Besides, God pretty much gets furious and wipes them out after they surround Jerusalem.

 

[tanakh]

Scripture to support that when Paul speaks of the world, he is speaking only about those parts you mentioned. I haven't read that in the Bible yet. Please post Scripture please...

If Paul and his contemporaries knew nothing of the American Continent, known as the NEW WORLD on discovery or Australasia it wouldn't be in the Bible. If we take what Paul says literally does that mean that the Gospel was also preached to every creature? The only person I have heard of that went around talking to animals were Francis of Assisi.

 

[John146]

If Paul and his contemporaries knew nothing of the American Continent, known as the NEW WORLD on discovery or Australasia it wouldn't be in the Bible. If we take what Paul says literally does that mean that the Gospel was also preached to every creature? The only person I have heard of that went around talking to animals were Francis of Assisi.

Was Paul being led by the Holy Spirit as he wrote or were these his own thoughts? For God so love the world...did God love just the "known world" at the time of John's gospel letter?

 

[Spurgeoncy]

All the world was known.

The Phoenicians traded the whole world long before Christ. e.g. in the times of Solomon

 

[dcontroversal]

All the world was known.

The Phoenicians traded the whole world long before Christ. e.g. in the times of Solomon

Amen and there is also proof of the Egyptians in Australia and of Aborigines in Egypt (hieroglyphics and cave paintings/wall paintings)

Solomon said that which is going to be has already been.....there are cities that show signs of vitrification, scriptures in the O.T. about OVERSHADOWING with wings, thousands of cities on the bottom of the oceans and seas, technology that has been found and kept secret etc.....Humanity is full of itself to assume that our generation (last 200 years) is all that and a bag of chips........thermonuclear war, floods, volcanos, disease, fire, earthquakes etc....civilizations come and go....and for sure history is tainted!

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Where do you think the Solomon Islands got their name?
Why is 1 in every 20 children blue eyed and blond haired?

 

[dcontroversal]

Where do you think the Solomon Islands got their name?
Why is 1 in every 20 children blue eyed and blond haired?

I personally believe that the generation(s) before the flood were as advanced or maybe even more advanced than we are right now........

 

[Spurgeoncy]

I don't know, where are the wrecks of the Jumbos and Ferraris?

 

[dcontroversal]

I don't know, where are the wrecks of the Jumbos and Ferraris?

Buried or destroyed.........the world that then was perished in the flood....the word perished means to be utterly destroyed.....

kind of like the hammer that was pulled up wile drilling a well....it was 250 feet deep in the earth where no mine, house, city had been....plus....

Geological, Historical and Archeological finds that disprove modern history and science are regularly covered up and kept hidden from humanity......

The bones of GIANTS being one......God has a unique ability to remove all traces of a past civilization...for example...Nineveh was so completely destroyed that just 3 centuries later Alexander the Great marched over it and did not even know it was there!

One thing I know for sure....THAT which is GOING TO BE HAS ALREADY BEEN and there is NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN!

 

[popeye]

Was Paul being led by the Holy Spirit as he wrote or were these his own thoughts? For God so love the world...did God love just the "known world" at the time of John's gospel letter?

Apparently Columbus educated the Holy Spirit that other "worlds" were actually existent