No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

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Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#41
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#41
dcontroversal said:
wrong...the word keep means to protect from guard or loss......not remove......! And what of the other 6 churches......?
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Honestly I don't know if it's going to be mid pre or post because as of right now I don't have a stance on it. But I do know this I have had countless dreams and visions of the rapture some of them I was going in it but I also had ones where I saw missiles raining down on America and I could feel the force of the blasts yet was protected and in some my dreams I saw the tribulation and saw horrors that don't even belong in a horror movie and there were times when i was in great danger yet somehow was protected.

So honestly I could not say how it is going to happen but I do know this we must have our hearts prepared regardless. As for the six churches that is another topic to discuss entirely as it's not always clear as to who the six churches are
 
PrynceNY

PrynceNY

Banned
#42
Aug 16, 2016
2,184
62
0
#42
dcontroversal said:
You have said nothing but your opinion....I quoted scripture....maybe you don't understand what BIBLE DISCUSSION means...now you have mouthed at least three times and have said nothing.......
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I have clearly stated the "falling away" which the original translation is "apostasia" which means (the departing/ the departure). That is not my opinion maybe you have problem comprehending that. Again as I have seen in many cases with you go on & on with people when they dont have your views. You won't stop until you feel your right. I'd much rather go uplift people than be another person you argue with on a daily basis.
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
#43
#43
Blain said:
Well depending on how one interprets scripture there can be a pre trib rapture such as revelation 3:10 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

This could easily be seen as a pre trib rapture verse if you view the hour of trial as the tribulation...
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I would argue you are distancing yourself from the clear facts of the Olivet Discourse: Jesus stated directly to Peter, James and John that they were to expect to be on earth at the time of the "abomination of desolation" and a subsequent outbreak of "great tribulation". When were Peter, James and John suppose to have adopted a view which CONTRADICTED what Jesus taught them there?

Two days after the Olivet discourse, Jesus went to the cross and three days later rose from the grave. During the 40 day interim that followed before His ascension...shouldn't there have been an awkward 'mea culpa' from Jesus"? --

"Hey guys, I know it was only a hundred hours ago or so, that I taught you a post-"great tribulation" translation. NOW I'm inexplicably going to contradict Myself and say to you that you'll be raptured before the great tribulation."
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#44
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#44
PrynceNY said:
I have clearly stated the "falling away" which the original translation is "apostasia" which means (the departing/ the departure). That is not my opinion maybe you have problem comprehending that. Again as I have seen in many cases with you go on & on with people when they dont have your views. You won't stop until you feel your right. I'd much rather go uplift people than be another person you argue with on a daily basis.
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The apostasy has nothing to do with implying there is a split rapture.....so....keep judging and not addressing what I asked you to address with scripture.....and the only one arguing and mouthing is you....I asked you a legit question based upon scriptures and ASKED you to post scripture in context to prove a split (rapture)........so...to quote my friends in Australia....

WHATEVZ.........!
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#45
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#45
MattTooFor said:
I would argue you are distancing yourself from the clear facts of the Olivet Discourse: Jesus stated directly to Peter, James and John that they were to expect to be on earth at the time of the "abomination of desolation" and a subsequent outbreak of "great tribulation". When were Peter, James and John suppose to have adopted a view which CONTRADICTED what Jesus taught them there?

Two days after the Olivet discourse, Jesus went to the cross and three days later rose from the grave. During the 40 day interim that followed before His ascension...shouldn't there have been an awkward 'mea culpa' from Jesus"? --

"Hey guys, I know it was only a hundred hours ago or so, that I taught you a post-"great tribulation" translation. NOW I'm inexplicably going to contradict Myself and say to you that you'll be raptured before the great tribulation."
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Well it may be clear facts to you but it isn't a clear fact to others, I am merely explaining that it is possible for a pretrib rapture depending on your views on scripture. Now how it actually happens is another story I think a lot of us are going to surprised how it goes down. I would absolutely love for the pre trib rapture to be true but at this point I don't know. I mean on one hand God has always protected his own and on the other he sometimes asks us to walk through the fire
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#46
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#46
Blain said:
Honestly I don't know if it's going to be mid pre or post because as of right now I don't have a stance on it. But I do know this I have had countless dreams and visions of the rapture some of them I was going in it but I also had ones where I saw missiles raining down on America and I could feel the force of the blasts yet was protected and in some my dreams I saw the tribulation and saw horrors that don't even belong in a horror movie and there were times when i was in great danger yet somehow was protected.

So honestly I could not say how it is going to happen but I do know this we must have our hearts prepared regardless. As for the six churches that is another topic to discuss entirely as it's not always clear as to who the six churches are
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Nice...and what you dream....IMV is supported under the BANNER of the DAUGHTER (prodigy) of BABYLON......she falls in a strike...

from the North
from thence
from under the shadow of a cloud
with the tempest of a storm
that shakes the ground
burns HER cities with fire
kills all of her YOUNG men of WAR in one hour

Identified as

THE HINDERMOST of the NATION
The LADY of the KINGDOMS

with the NATIONAL symbols of
A LADY
EAGLE
WOMAN
 
PrynceNY

PrynceNY

Banned
#47
Aug 16, 2016
2,184
62
0
#47
dcontroversal said:
The apostasy has nothing to do with implying there is a split rapture.....so....keep judging and not addressing what I asked you to address with scripture.....and the only one arguing and mouthing is you....I asked you a legit question based upon scriptures and ASKED you to post scripture in context to prove a split (rapture)........so...to quote my friends in Australia.... WHATEVZ.........!
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I stated constantly believe in whatever you want & as expected you go on & on yet im the one who's arguing? lol. I'll pray for you.....
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
#49
#49
It would've been interesting if Tim LaHaye or one of these other big-time "PreTrib" proponents could have time-traveled back to the hour of the Olivet Discourse and tried to get in front of the disciples who were sitting and listening to Jesus' presentation. Imagine Tim stepping forward and waving his arms:

"Whoa! Hold on! You guys shouldn't be listening to this. The Olivet Discourse isn't for believers. Don't pay this any mind!"

Peter: "Hey buddy, you're blocking my view. Would you mind? Please step to the side, thanks. And by the way, the Olivet Discourse DOES apply to believers...and that's why Jesus is presenting the Discourse to believers! James and John and myself...we are believers. Maybe you should sit down and start taking notes, Tim!"
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#50
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#50
dcontroversal said:
Nice...and what you dream....IMV is supported under the BANNER of the DAUGHTER (prodigy) of BABYLON......she falls in a strike...

from the North
from thence
from under the shadow of a cloud
with the tempest of a storm
that shakes the ground
burns HER cities with fire
kills all of her YOUNG men of WAR in one hour

Identified as

THE HINDERMOST of the NATION
The LADY of the KINGDOMS

with the NATIONAL symbols of
A LADY
EAGLE
WOMAN
Click to expand...
Interestingly enough that was the verse that popped in my mind after I pondered about this dream, I didn't know it was a dream when I had it because it felt so real I mean the powerful force of the explosions was so strong I could feel the heat and it so loud that I had to cover my ears even worse was that it was literally raining down so many so fast.

it wasn't long after that I was browsing the web for a picture of the stature of liberty so I could learn to draw it when I saw this ny_nuke_by_azula_bluefire-d5xomqm.jpg
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
#51
#51
Blain said:
Well it may be clear facts to you but it isn't a clear fact to others, I am merely explaining that it is possible for a pretrib rapture depending on your views on scripture. Now how it actually happens is another story I think a lot of us are going to surprised how it goes down. I would absolutely love for the pre trib rapture to be true but at this point I don't know. I mean on one hand God has always protected his own and on the other he sometimes asks us to walk through the fire
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Well but...that's the whole point of Bible study and Bible discussions:

Maybe I can persuade others to view the simplicity and logic of Scripture (as far as I understand it). Like I said earlier, I had my 12-year-old daughter read the Olivet Discourse. She did it in 15 minutes and easily understood all the major aspects.

Your presupposition seems to be there is no way to reach reasonably certain conclusions about these matters. But yours is merely a presupposition. You would need to support that.
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
#52
#52
Jesus presented the entire 'end times' scenario directly to believers. Peter, James and John were believers. In my understanding, there is zero excuse for brushing aside Jesus' plain and simple advisories delivered directly to believers. End of story.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#53
Jan 13, 2016
16,656
3,536
113
#53
MattTooFor said:
Jesus presented the entire 'end times' scenario directly to believers. Peter, James and John were believers. In my understanding, there is zero excuse for brushing aside Jesus' plain and simple advisories delivered directly to believers. End of story.
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Would you like to answer post #27 as to when the end shall come?
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#54
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#54
MattTooFor said:
Well but...that's the whole point of Bible study and Bible discussions:

Maybe I can persuade others to view the simplicity and logic of Scripture (as far as I understand it). Like I said earlier, I had my 12-year-old daughter read the Olivet Discourse. She did it in 15 minutes and easily understood all the major aspects.

Your presupposition seems to be there is no way to reach reasonably certain conclusions about these matters. But yours is merely a presupposition. You would need to support that.
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Exactly that is the entire point of bible discussion and debating. Honestly I am probably not the best person to debate which one it is considering I don't have a firm stance on them but I merely wanted to provoke deeper thought by showing how interpretation can change what the scriptures appear to say.

In our own eyes it's easy to see what we believe to be the truth in the scriptures and completely be blind to the scriptures that appear to oppose our views. I used to be a very hard core pre trib rapture believer and I could show you every verse that absolutely proved it too but when shown verse that seemed to completely oppose it I disregarded them and missed out on the meaning and purpose of that scripture.

When reading and studying the bible we have to have a teachable and moldable heart otherwise even if we are 110% sure our belief is right yet it actually isn't we will be blind to it.
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
#55
#55
John146 said:
Would you like to answer post #27 as to when the end shall come?
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I didn't see any real reasoning from you...no hard feelings. Just an assertion on your part...and then some scriptures you placed there. There is only one "gospel" by the way. I wouldn't know where you've come up with a doctrine of a "Different Gospel".

And again, Jesus presented the facts of the 'end times' to Peter, James and John. At what point were they supposed to have adopted a view which CONTRADICTED Jesus' words to them?
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#56
#56
Only one reply then let you all sort out your fable.

Tribulation brought on by the world is totally different that tribulation brought on by God.
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
#57
#57
Blain said:
Exactly that is the entire point of bible discussion and debating. Honestly I am probably not the best person to debate which one it is considering I don't have a firm stance on them but I merely wanted to provoke deeper thought by showing how interpretation can change what the scriptures appear to say.

In our own eyes it's easy to see what we believe to be the truth in the scriptures and completely be blind to the scriptures that appear to oppose our views. I used to be a very hard core pre trib rapture believer and I could show you every verse that absolutely proved it too but when shown verse that seemed to completely oppose it I disregarded them and missed out on the meaning and purpose of that scripture.

When reading and studying the bible we have to have a teachable and moldable heart otherwise even if we are 110% sure our belief is right yet it actually isn't we will be blind to it.
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And I am here to say there is a fine line between having a "teachable and moldable heart"...and endless, unceasing 'equivocating' to the point that we are, in effect, procrastinating in developing reasonably firm beliefs about certain critical issues in the Christian life.

According to Jesus in the Olivet Discourse...you need to have a total "man your battlestations" super-high level of awareness and alertness regarding 'end time' events. Re-read through Matthew 24 and 25 sometime. There is no wiggle room when Jesus is addressing Peter, James and John.

He is saying (in so many words) 'wake up...smell the coffee...sit on the edge of your seats for what I'm about to convey to you'. NONE of that is going on in the conservative church world today...especially in America. Everyone is sleeping, snoring, snoozing, napping.

Matthew 25 does not equivocate (there's that word again!). It says there are 10 virgins.

Five prepare for the darkness which precedes the return of the King...by filling their lamps with oil. This would seem to indicate spiritual preparation required for the huge shockwave set off by the explosive "abomination of desolation" event (presumable the commencing of the Antichrist world order).

Five other virgins do NOT prepare for the darkness and are thus apparently overwhelmed by the darkness, unable to handle the darkness...and they end up in a terrible state.

This "que sera, sera" [whatever will be, will be] stuff that I've gotten from dozens and hundreds of typical American believers ("oh, I believe in 'pan-trib'...it'll all 'pan' out in the end, hahahaha")...is an absolute tragedy in the making.
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
#58
#58
pottersclay said:
Only one reply then let you all sort out your fable.

Tribulation brought on by the world is totally different that tribulation brought on by God.
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If you're talking to me...I made that distinction way back in the OP:
God's people are removed before the wrath of God but NOT before the wrath of the Devil and the hatred of the world is visited upon them.
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And what do you mean by "fable"? Jesus stated the angels will "gather the elect from the four winds". That is, indeed, referring to a supernatural translation (i.e. a rapture) unless you were thinking the angels will use 747's or something.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#59
#59
There is no wrath of the devil........now you done it I said only one post....:mad:
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
#60
#60
pottersclay said:
There is no wrath of the devil........now you done it I said only one post....:mad:
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The Devil has no wrath?? That's like saying the North Pole has no ice. The Devil has very pronounced 'anger issues', FYI.
 
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